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19-chief
07-22-2005, 10:51 AM
could one get away with injects EOD?

Purdue Power
07-22-2005, 01:28 PM
Ya, that is how you are supposed to do it with both of those.

LAM
07-22-2005, 01:32 PM
could one get away with injects EOD?

sure can...ED is optimum for prop esters but shooting daily gets old very fast

19-chief
07-22-2005, 01:47 PM
ok. thanks guys. i just wasn't sure about acetate b/c it's HL is only 3 days.

if i wanted to use these for a bulker, could i throw npp in there? perhaps it would look something like:
wks 1-6: 100mg t-prop eod
wks 1-6: 100mg tren ace eod
wks 1-6: ?mg npp eod

LAM, you've got a PM.

Purdue Power
07-22-2005, 03:14 PM
I would run it for at least 8 weeks. For the NPP, if this is your first cycle, I would go with about 75mg EOD. Make sure to have plenty of Adex and Nolva on hand. You are in for quite a bit of aromatization.

19-chief
07-22-2005, 03:41 PM
I would run it for at least 8 weeks. For the NPP, if this is your first cycle, I would go with about 75mg EOD. Make sure to have plenty of Adex and Nolva on hand. You are in for quite a bit of aromatization.
this would be my 2nd one... 1st was eq/t-enan for 11/12 weeks. aromatization from which compounds... tren? npp? could i just run tren and test to bulk or do you think i need the anabolism from the npp for growth? btw, 8 weeks would be fine.

Cardinal
07-22-2005, 07:49 PM
I think Tren E/Test E or Tren A/Test Prop would be the best choice for a lean bulker.

I am not so sure that you would need npp or any type of deca in the stack with tren. If using npp, you might just run Test Prop/NPP + ancillaries and make a bit less lean of a bulker with maybe a bit more anabolism.

If you don't get too many sides from Test, I would just up the dose of test pretty high rather than adding deca imo. You are perhaps running a greater chance of having progesterone problems using both progesterone compounds at the same time (tren/deca) not to mention reduced libido possibilities. jmo.

19-chief
07-25-2005, 05:51 AM
I think Tren E/Test E or Tren A/Test Prop would be the best choice for a lean bulker.

I am not so sure that you would need npp or any type of deca in the stack with tren. If using npp, you might just run Test Prop/NPP + ancillaries and make a bit less lean of a bulker with maybe a bit more anabolism.

If you don't get too many sides from Test, I would just up the dose of test pretty high rather than adding deca imo. You are perhaps running a greater chance of having progesterone problems using both progesterone compounds at the same time (tren/deca) not to mention reduced libido possibilities. jmo.
what kind of doses are we talking? got a friend who has a friend who has 100/100 tren e/test e blend... i could always get that and one extra vial of test e 250. trust me, i'd like the idea of enanthates but i also want to be wise about my first use of trenbolone and most likely go with the acetate in case of s/e's. should i be this concerned?

19-chief
07-25-2005, 01:19 PM
bumped for the edit. :D

lnvanry
07-25-2005, 01:59 PM
Doesn't tren/prop have a half life of app.72 hrs. Therefore you could inject every 2 days. The local pro at my gym runs that combo with injections on MON,WED,FRI.

Purdue Power
07-25-2005, 03:40 PM
Ya, you might want to start with TrenA for your first use of it. I am not having many sides from it other than aggression and irritability.

I agree with either going Test/Tren or Test/NPP. I am going to be running a bulking cycle after the turn of the year with TestE/NPP. I am going for the more anabolic stack, being as I stay pretty lean as it is and can cut rather easily. I wish that I could run NanDeca with my TestE and go E5D injections, but Deca stays active in your system for so long and suppresses your HPTA long after the cycle is out. I will be going EOD with my TestE/NPP. I have seen the activity charts for NPP, and it peaks the day after injection, much like TestProp.

For your doses, I have been told that a 2:1 ratio of Test:Tren is popular. That is what I am running right now. I will be running about the same ratio for my TestE/NPP cycle.

Purdue Power
07-25-2005, 03:42 PM
Doesn't tren/prop have a half life (http://www.adsrve.com/linkredirect.php?h=622,28875760,ironmagazineforums .com,0) of app.72 hrs. Therefore you could inject every 2 days. The local pro at my gym runs that combo with injections on MON,WED,FRI.Prop has a half-life of about 4.5 days, but it reaches peak levels the day after injection, so EOD is optimal. I have read that if you inject ED, you don't get the peak plasma levels that you do with EOD. TrenA has a half-life of 3 days, so injecting along with the Prop EOD is fine. It would probably be better to inject ED with TrenA, but since you are injecting EOD with Prop, you might as well mix them together in the same injection.

19-chief
12-23-2005, 10:36 AM
just figured i'd dig this up to say i'm now dancing with the lady named Trenbolone Acetate. i am liking this shit a lot!!!

PWGriffin
12-23-2005, 03:07 PM
For your doses, I have been told that a 2:1 ratio of Test:Tren is popular. That is what I am running right now. I will be running about the same ratio for my TestE/NPP cycle.

Are you saying 2cc's prop and 1cc tren EOD?? Cuz my next cycle will also be a prop/tren cutter....

ZECH
12-24-2005, 06:11 AM
IMO, 100mg/ed is a little high for your first shot at it. Alot of people see great gains at 50mg/ed. At any rate I would not go above 75mg/ed for your first shot at tren. I just don't think there is a need for it.

19-chief
12-24-2005, 08:37 AM
IMO, 100mg/ed is a little high for your first shot at it. Alot of people see great gains at 50mg/ed. At any rate I would not go above 75mg/ed for your first shot at tren. I just don't think there is a need for it.
i started at 50mg eod and i've been feeling the tightness/ hardness and some strength increases already. bodyweight seems to be going up again slowly. gonna go to 70mg eod next time.

Pirate!
12-24-2005, 10:50 AM
150 mg Test Prop/ 100 mg Tren A EOD is the way to go, IMO. If aggression gets the better of you, lower the test, not the tren. You can run high doses of tren with low doses of test and not have that problem.

ZECH
12-24-2005, 11:19 AM
i started at 50mg eod and i've been feeling the tightness/ hardness and some strength increases already. bodyweight seems to be going up again slowly. gonna go to 70mg eod next time.
Good to hear. Stick with it. You will probably see good gains with that.

Tha Don
12-24-2005, 07:11 PM
Good to hear. Stick with it. You will probably see good gains with that.
i agree, if 50-75mg EOD is working well for you then stick with it, you can always go higher on your next cycle, be interested to hear how the tren goes for you, whats your eating like this cycle?

19-chief
12-26-2005, 07:06 AM
i agree, if 50-75mg EOD is working well for you then stick with it, you can always go higher on your next cycle, be interested to hear how the tren goes for you, whats your eating like this cycle?
i'm currently consuming about 4000 cal/day and about 225g protien and plenty of healthy fats. no cardio really... just hockey once or twice per week for 2 hours at a time. oh and i'm stilling from the TestE/EQ cycle. i ran them at 500/600 for 10 weeks each then i cruised at 250 TestE e6d in anticipation of getting the TrenA. the TestE will remain the same for about 3 weeks and i'll do the TrenA for about about 6 weeks total. i guess pct will be a bit tougher this time but sometimes i feel you've just got to roll with it.

Tha Don
12-26-2005, 12:01 PM
yeah no doubt, i take it you're running hcg?

19-chief
12-26-2005, 12:08 PM
yeah no doubt, i take it you're running hcg?
i haven't yet and as far as later on, i don't know yet... i've been reading more mixed reviews lately and b/c i haven't tried one without it, i might be inclined to go w/o the HCG this time. but like i said, i'm just not sure yet.

Tha Don
12-26-2005, 12:16 PM
i haven't yet and as far as later on, i don't know yet... i've been reading more mixed reviews lately and b/c i haven't tried one without it, i might be inclined to go w/o the HCG this time. but like i said, i'm just not sure yet.
what mixed reviews? you mean like negative comments on hcg use? if so what stuff have you read?

i tell you what, i will never run another cycle without the stuff, i am on my 2nd week of pct, balls are huge, i'm having no trouble performance wise down there, i feel full of energy too in absolute contrast to pct of my last cycle, i'm still a bit edgey (as i was last time) but overall recovery seems to be better 10 fold!

19-chief
12-26-2005, 01:24 PM
well, i started reading different opinions on IronArena but now it won't let me on... i'll see whatelse i can't find.

Purdue Power
12-26-2005, 05:38 PM
As far as HCG, some people need it, others don't. I, for one, am very prone to testicular atrophy, so I need to run HCG with my cycles if I want to keep my nut size up. I recovered just fine on my last cycle, so it isn't absolutely necessary even if you have quite a bit of testicular atrophy, which I did. Some people don't have much testicular atrohpy at all, so they wouldn't even have to worry about it.

Some people claim that you shouldn't use it because it is suppressive and will further hinder your natural production. If you are on any form of nandrolone or trenbolone, you are going to be completely shut down anyways, so that won't be a factor. I don't really agree with people running the HCG during any part of their pct for the reason of suppression though.

If you know that you are prone to it, you can run it if you wish. If you don't know yet if you are prone, you might want to keep some on hand. It is a game of trial and error with HCG.

Tha Don
12-26-2005, 06:19 PM
well as we know all AAS effect the HPTA, hcg helps to counter the negative actions of steroids on our HPTA (in particular the decreased natural testosterone production), therefore i feel if you are running steroids you should always run hcg alongside to help keep things in balance, even on light cycles, when arguably hcg might not be needed you have to ask yourself, will it benefit my recovery? and the answer is yes, so i always think it should be ran, as important to recovery as a nolva/clomid pct IMO (if not more), i regret not running it on my first cycle

Purdue Power
12-27-2005, 08:41 AM
HCG is suppressive in itself. It doesn't impede the supression of an AAS. It's function is to keep your nuts from shrinking so that they can more quickly go back to full test production once you start your pct since they are still at full size.

Tha Don
12-27-2005, 01:54 PM
supressive to what? its certainly not supressive to your bodys own testosterone production is it

Pirate!
12-27-2005, 03:59 PM
well, i started reading different opinions on IronArena but now it won't let me on... i'll see whatelse i can't find.Without notifying the staff, the owner of the domain www.ironarena.com sold the domain. Needless to say, the former admin wasn't happy about it at all. It makes the former admin look like a jack-ass, and he won't run another board that can be pulled out from under him. I am familiar with the thread you are refering to and may be able to find it in cyber-space. Be back in a few...

Pirate!
12-27-2005, 04:09 PM
Shit, I can't find it. If you remember where it is, you can access the board here: http://pro-board.com/index.php?proboard=ironarena&

PWGriffin
12-27-2005, 11:41 PM
supressive to what? its certainly not supressive to your bodys own testosterone production is it

HCG doesn't promote LH levels, it mimics LH....cutting the HPTA out of the equation. So yes, it is suppressive to "natural" test levels. HCG is all about keepin the boys in shape....Using HCG post cycle as opposed to on cycle only will further delay a "full" recovery.

Tha Don
12-28-2005, 06:01 AM
HCG doesn't promote LH levels, it mimics LH....cutting the HPTA out of the equation. So yes, it is suppressive to "natural" test levels. HCG is all about keepin the boys in shape....Using HCG post cycle as opposed to on cycle only will further delay a "full" recovery.
erm, no it isn't

hcg directly increases natural test levels, do some reading theres many studies out there proving this, what do you think that growth in our nut size is, hot air? :rolleyes:

19-chief
12-28-2005, 06:59 AM
originally posted in the pinned topic in PCT section

I have never been a fan of hcg as it has been known to cause further suppression. It usually casues reduction in the concentration of membrane receptors for LH. Or in others word receptors dissapear for LH, and then need to slowly return, making your endogenous LH useless to help produce more testosterone, and further suppressing you

here is one study

hCG suppression of LH receptors and responsiveness of testicular tissue to hCG.

Purvis K, Torjesen PA, Haug E, Hansson V.

A single injection of 75 IU of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) into adult male rats caused a dramatic reduction in the concentration of membrane receptors for luteinizing hormone (LH) in the testis. The mean receptor level reached a nadir which was 5--10% of that in the control testes, 3 days after the injection, after which it gradually returned toward normal. This cannot be due to increased competition caused by the injected hCG since no decrease was observed at a time when the circulating levels of hCG were at a maximum (2--24 h after injection). Furthermore, at a time when receptor levels had been maximally reduced, circulating hCG was at or below the level of detection. Reduction in the number of LH binding sites in the testis was associated with a decreased responsiveness of the testicular tissue to hCG as measured by hCG-stimulated testosterone production in vitro. This inhibitory effect of large quantities of LH on its own receptor is suggested as a possible explantation for the previously observed low concentrations of LH receptor in the testis of the testicular feminized male (tfm) rat. This syndrome is characterized by high endogenous levels of plasma LH (Sherins et al., 1971).

PMID: 195852 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Pirate!
12-28-2005, 07:11 AM
erm, no it isn't

hcg directly increases natural test levels, do some reading theres many studies out there proving this, what do you think that growth in our nut size is, hot air? :rolleyes:It sounds like you guys are arguing semantics. Yes, your body produces test from HCG stimulation. To some, this is natural test because it was produced by your body. However, an exogonous hormone (HCG) was used to make this happen, so most would say it is not natural. HCG is similar to a prohormone in some regards. Think of it in terms of 4-ad. If you take 4-ad, your body raises it's test level, even though you are not adding exogonous test. Most would consider the use of hcg or any prohormone that raises test levels to be "unnatural", unless it was an herbal supplement like Trib or Fenugreek. The concept of "natural" in this context further supports my idea that this terminology should not be appllied to such discussions.

Tha Don
12-28-2005, 08:01 AM
It sounds like you guys are arguing semantics. Yes, your body produces test from HCG stimulation. To some, this is natural test because it was produced by your body. However, an exogonous hormone (HCG) was used to make this happen, so most would say it is not natural. HCG is similar to a prohormone in some regards. Think of it in terms of 4-ad. If you take 4-ad, your body raises it's test level, even though you are not adding exogonous test. Most would consider the use of hcg or any prohormone that raises test levels to be "unnatural", unless it was an herbal supplement like Trib or Fenugreek. The concept of "natural" in this context further supports my idea that this terminology should not be appllied to such discussions.
by natural i am referring to testosterone that your body produces itself, not exogonous test, 4ad is completely different to hcg, 4ad converts to synthetic testosterone suppressive to you natural test supply, hcg mimicks LH which in turn sends the signal to raise your bodys OWN testosterone production, hence raising your natural test supply, they are entirely different, 4ad is in essence a steroid, hcg is not, why is trib and fenugreek natural? its doing the same shit hcg will do on a much lower scale, you could argue none of that crap is natural

Pirate!
12-28-2005, 11:49 AM
you could argue none of that crap is naturalExactly my point. I believe that as natural beings, humans are incapable of doing anything that defies the laws of nature, but that is a different subject all together. Does HCG cause the body to produce testosterone? Yes. Does 4-ad cause the body to produce testosterone? Yes. Does injesting some plants cause the body to produce testosterone? Yes. Does eating the right type of fats cause the body to produce testosterone? Yes. You decide what is "natural" and what isn't. HCG is suppressive to the HTPA, either way you look at.

Pirate!
12-28-2005, 11:51 AM
by natural i am referring to testosterone that your body produces itself Your body actually produces testosterone from 4-ad, even though it is through a different mechanism than with HCG.

Du
12-28-2005, 11:57 AM
erm, no it isn't

hcg directly increases natural test levels, do some reading theres many studies out there proving this, what do you think that growth in our nut size is, hot air? :rolleyes:

Sure, HCG increases natural test production. But it inhibits natural LH production, which in turn inhibits natural test production.

With that said though, I very firmly agree that HCG is essential for the transition from on- to post-cycle.