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VMSEddieF
03-07-2007, 01:29 PM
I browsed now I need it direct from the experts.

They both appear about the same to me. Im looking for a once a week dose thats stays stable as possible. Gonna request 50mg/week to start then check levels in 4 weeks. Since its long term use, im lookin to start low since it'll drop as my bod adjusts over time, then go 75mg.

Do they differ in effect for muscle growth?
Does one maintain stable levels better?

Thanks in advance. Just got call from doc and results from 3/5/07 were low low. Didnt give # but were upper 200's 2 months ago. Gonna drop this androgel crap and get cyp or enan next week.

One more..if i took say 50mg/week for 6 months, where would my levels be compared to pre treatment?

BTW its not from cycling so keep it handy cause summer's around the corner :)

BigPapaPump68
03-07-2007, 01:44 PM
The reason why your natural test levels were lower, but you were getting stronger is because of the gel that your doctor gave you. It was lowering you natural test, but you were gaining becuase of the synthetic test that you were taking. Either cyp or enan will work fine for building.

VMSEddieF
03-07-2007, 02:36 PM
Thanks Big. So synthetic doesnt test the same as natural Test?
Total Test is all ive checked. No check boxes for anything else. Perhaps he has to write free, ect?

Funny thing is Im the one that checked Test on the paperwork last year when i was going for vitamin levels, ect when I started feeling seriously weak. Was a good catch.

musclepump
03-07-2007, 02:53 PM
I don't know why, but I've always preferred Test Enanthate to Cypionate. I don't know why, I just do.

ZECH
03-07-2007, 05:08 PM
Cyp's ester is one carbon longer than Enth. It may relate to just a tad more stable blood level, but they are real close so either one should work. Normal HRT is probably around 100mg per week.

Pirate!
03-07-2007, 07:13 PM
I'd go with 100 mg/wk of test c. If you only wanted to do 75 mg/wk, you could add some aromasin and likely keep what natural production you still have.

You should find out if your problem is primary. If you LH is normal, that means your balls aren't reacting. There is a great article on HRT somewhere on this board that dg posted. Might want to check it out.

ZECH
03-08-2007, 05:36 AM
HRT........
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=67662

VMSEddieF
03-08-2007, 06:06 PM
thanks so far and wow that article is long, great and read it top to bottom.
estrogen eh? free Test too like i was told by someone here a while back. i'll have to print and read it again before i see doc next week.

if i have estrogen checked, think it'll show high from 4 months daily use of androgel? if i got that article right, taking something to reduce high estrogen will boost testosterone.

im gonna call in and request estrogen bloodwork tomorrow so i could have results when i see him.

Pirate!
03-09-2007, 04:52 AM
if i got that article right, taking something to reduce high estrogen will boost testosterone In most cases this is true. However, with server hypogonadism, the testes won't respond much, if at all.

VMSEddieF
03-09-2007, 05:02 PM
gonads..i didnt get to requesting estrogen check today. im thinking of waiting till Thurs when i see doc in person.

looks like im gonna shoot for 75mg per week.
200mg vs 100mg per mL..im gonna be injecting biceps since its the only muscle i got deep enough. one hurt more then the other next day? 200mg/mL would be less liquid but stronger. matter?

needles dont bother me. stick myself nightly with MS med. kinda looking forward to sticking this one heh.

ZECH
03-09-2007, 05:10 PM
I would expect some pain, depends on who made the gear. Most test will hurt at least a little for most above 250mg/ml. And biceps are a small muscle so more chance of pain. It would be better in the glutes.

VMSEddieF
03-09-2007, 05:31 PM
Watson's label is on the generic Cyp. UpJohn is the non generic but probably not covered. I know glutes but mine are mia. Im in a chair for 17 yrs.
At 75mg i should be ok right?

VMSEddieF
03-09-2007, 05:56 PM
Just did a google for testosterone and MS to see if it'll hurt my condition and i cant believe what i read. Total opposite, HELPS, slows brain lesions, people with MS have falling testosterone which is kinda why women get it more cause of lower levels! Ya know, every neurologist i mentioned anabolics to last year almost ran out of the room. I laughed at the time how they freaked but now I wanna go smack some sense into them. Of course i wont, especially being in a wheelchair they could just kick and roll me away lol but oh man I cant wait to tell my good doc that. Now im dying for some Cyp. If ya smell androgel tomorrow its me.

Pirate!
03-09-2007, 06:45 PM
This is exactly why we have the responsibility of taking our health into our own hands. Doctors are great when you don't know what the hell to do. When you know what you want, they aren't so helpful--in general. I wouldn't sweat the concentration too much. Either way, you will be shooting under one mL. You may want to consider shooting in your medial deltoid. The structure of the muscle is much more conducive to injections than the bicep is.

Luke95
03-09-2007, 07:48 PM
As a pharmacy tech. I see quite a bit more cyp. dispensed than the later.

I also see alot of Androgel move .... hehe .....

Pirate!
03-10-2007, 10:02 AM
Heya Luke. Didn't know you were a Pharm Tec. I used to do that 11 years ago. Cyp was all I saw back then.

Luke95
03-10-2007, 08:38 PM
Heya Luke. Didn't know you were a Pharm Tec. I used to do that 11 years ago. Cyp was all I saw back then.

Yeap. Even got me certifiable :nerd:

VMSEddieF
03-14-2007, 02:21 PM
Well tomorrow's the day. Just about have research wrapped up.
Called my insurance provider to make sure Cyp is covered. Well, after speaking with the specialists specailist, they said its covered. However, Cyp wasnt readily showing covered but was on formulary list for 2007 which is why i told them search cause i see it on your covered list. It might envolve a pharmacist phonecall to provider but they said its covered.
Enan is on both lists readily available so would be smoother for pharm and me.

Since im gonna do a shot per week it doesnt really matter which one right?
After reading how the esters keep the injection in place, im thinking a tad shorter (Enan) ester pocket in my bicep will be better and switch arms each week. Also Enan should have a touch more Test per 200mg. I called the co but they didnt have info on how many of the 200mg is Test and esters.

Pin size..27 gauge is what i use for my MS med. Will it push though that size?

Trying hard to pass my Test :)

BigPapaPump68
03-14-2007, 03:39 PM
Well tomorrow's the day. Just about have research wrapped up.
Called my insurance provider to make sure Cyp is covered. Well, after speaking with the specialists specailist, they said its covered. However, Cyp wasnt readily showing covered but was on formulary list for 2007 which is why i told them search cause i see it on your covered list. It might envolve a pharmacist phonecall to provider but they said its covered.
Enan is on both lists readily available so would be smoother for pharm and me.

Since im gonna do a shot per week it doesnt really matter which one right?
After reading how the esters keep the injection in place, im thinking a tad shorter (Enan) ester pocket in my bicep will be better and switch arms each week. Also Enan should have a touch more Test per 200mg. I called the co but they didnt have info on how many of the 200mg is Test and esters.

Pin size..27 gauge is what i use for my MS med. Will it push though that size?

Trying hard to pass my Test :)

Hey buddy, not only does it kill taking test e or c in the bicep, but it would take you about 2 minutes to be able to push it through with a 27g. Just get some 23g 1.5" pins and shoot in the glutes. It's alot easier and a hell of a less painful.

VMSEddieF
03-14-2007, 05:00 PM
Hey Big. I would but im gluteus mimimus. After all these years in chair theyre gone. I'll give it a shot if doc goes for it. Its justified, just a matter of him being scared from all the negative publicity and no positive. Im gonna try to change that. In the least i'll be stuck waiting 8 minutes for androgel to dry every day. Id much rather feel slight pain for a day per week. Suppose i could do 1/4 cc in each bicep.
Gotcha on the bigger pin. Will do maybe 1/2 way inbetween sizes. The stuff i shoot now is like water.

VMSEddieF
03-15-2007, 05:57 PM
Well got good news and bad news. Bad news first..when i saw doc today he told me how low my Test was even being on approx 35mg (absorbed) Test Androgel per week 5mg absorbed per day. The good news..after agreeing spreading 2x that amount on every dam day and breathing it and STILL likely not being enough, he did the sensible thing and wrote a script for 1/2 mL = 100mg Cyp once per week. Hopefully i'll be on my way to regaining muscle lost over the past year from MS and declining Test! I mean, to give a guy a shot at getting life back from something he did nothing to get is awesome.

ZECH
03-16-2007, 07:39 AM
We don't post prices or sources

VMSEddieF
03-16-2007, 08:16 AM
Thanks and sorry I read the rules last year been too long heh.
Amazing how much cheaper it is then gel. I figure if i get that info out to ins co and such, people may rethink the way way overly strict control over the stuff. Wishful thinking anyway. At least have doctors calm down and get the dam vodoo out of their heads. They got them thinking your asking for crack. No kiddin.

So i did my first shot this morning. Layed out a paper towel, placed my tools and gear on it, turned on some XM dance music and let the show begin.
I used a 26g 5/8 pin since i used bicep and man my skin is thin so that did it.
Took longer to draw the Test in then to push it out. Went out no problem and pain? Na. Feels less then a soft punch in the unflexed arm. Gotta take some pain for gain right. Im ready for a couple sets.