There has been enough interest as of late in full body routines that I thought I would make a thread about designing one so that I can just drop a link when a question arises. Not to mention, I'm sure people will offer some valuable input on ways to improve what I am going to layout.

Usually, I suggest designing at least 2 alternate workouts to rotate between, but feel free to design as many as you would like. However, the exercises don't even have to be planned. These workouts should be performed 2-3 days per week, or possibly every other day if you have been training a long time and have raised your work capacity to that level.

As a general rule of thumb, 2-4 sets per exercise is probably fine. Nonetheless, I would consult my thread on designing training routines (http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=58699) for more information on the topic of balancing the variables of a training routine.



The following is a general template which should aid you in creating a full body routine, along with an example of one:

Workout A:
Lower body push: back squats, front squats, hack squats, leg press, lunges, stepups, etc.

Upper body horizontal push: bench press, decline press, pushups, DB bench press, etc.

Lower body pull: deadlifts, good mornings, SLDLs, RDLs, GHRs, etc.

Upper body horizontal pull: bent rows, Yate's rows, cable rows, single arm DB rows, etc.

Accessory movements: arm isolation work, calf isolation work, full body movements, additional work for a weak point, grip work, stabilization exercises, rotator cuff work, etc.

Workout B:
Lower body pull: deadlifts, good mornings, SLDLs, RDLs, GHRs, etc.

Upper body vertical push: military press, DB press, dips, incline press (45 degree+), etc.

Lower body push: back squats, front squats, hack squats, leg press, lunges, stepups, etc.

Upper body vertical pull: pullups, chinups, pulldowns, etc.

Accessory movements: arm isolation work, calf isolation work, full body movements, additional work for a weak point, grip work, stabilization exercises, rotator cuff work, etc.

Example:
Workout A:
Front Squats (Lower push)
Bench Press (Horizontal push)
Glute Ham Raises (Lower pull)
Spider Rows (Horizontal pull)
Farmer's Walks (Accessory work - Full body exercise - Grip)
YTWLs (Shoulder prehabilitation)
Incline DB Curls (Accessory work - Arm isolation - Pull)

Workout B:
Romanian Deadlifts (Lower pull)
Seated DB OH Press (Vertical push)
Split Squats (Lower push)
Neutral Grip Chinups (Vertical pull)
Turkish Getups (Accessory work - Full body exercise - Core Stability)
Birddog Planks (Accessory work - Core Stability)
OH DB Extensions (Accessory work - Arm isolation - Push)



Here is another great way to layout a full body program:

Workout A - Push:
Lower body push: back squats, front squats, hack squats, leg press, lunges, stepups, etc.

Upper body vertical push: military press, DB press, dips, incline press (45 degree+), etc.

Lower body push #2: back squats, front squats, hack squats, leg press, lunges, stepups, etc.

Upper body horizontal push: bench press, decline press, pushups, DB bench press, etc.

Accessory movements: arm isolation work, calf isolation work, full body movements, additional work for a weak point, grip work, stabilization exercises, rotator cuff work, etc.

Workout B - Pull:
Lower body pull: deadlifts, good mornings, SLDLs, RDLs, GHRs, etc.

Upper body horizontal pull: bent rows, Yate's rows, cable rows, single arm DB rows, etc.

Lower body pull: deadlifts, good mornings, SLDLs, RDLs, GHRs, etc.

Upper body vertical pull: pullups, chinups, pulldowns, etc.

Accessory movements: arm isolation work, calf isolation work, full body movements, additional work for a weak point, grip work, stabilization exercises, rotator cuff work, etc.



Bodybuilder:
For the accessory movements you will probably want to throw in some calf and arm work. As well, you should throw in an extra set or two for a lagging body part. The rep range used should probably be in the 6-12 range for the majority of training, but don't be afraid to occasionally go higher or lower to keep things interesting, spark an increase in strength, etc.

Powerlifter:
Move one accessory lift to the beginning of your workout. Alternate the accessory lift between a maximum effort lift for your weakpoints in the squat, deadlift, and bench press and dynamic effort lifts for each of the big 3 (Example: Monday ME Squat/DL, Wednesday DE Bench Press, Friday ME Bench Press, Monday DE Squat/DL, Repeat). You could even try 2 ME sessions and 1 DE session per week, with the DE session including speed training for all the lifts. There are endless possibilities. Accessory lifts should probably stay in a bodybuilder type rep range, but with a bit more usage of the 3-6 range as needed.

Be sure to switch up your maximum effort lift every couple of sessions to avoid excessive strain on the CNS, a la conjugate periodization. If you have time, you can also throw in additional accessory work for weak points at the end of each workout (Lockout strength, starting strength, grip work, etc.).

If you prefer linear periodization, you could always just work your way down from 8-12 repetitions on the big lifts to 1-3 over the course of several weeks and cycle through as desired. Just make sure you change the order so you start with the bench press on one of the days.

General Health:
Although I generally recommend training like a bodybuilder for this crowd, you could also perform these lifts in a circuit. This will ensure a high level of cardiovascular conditioning, improved muscular endurance, and with some level of increased strength, which can be improved by going heavier on occasion. For the accessory lifts, I highly recommend movements that require you to use your body as a unit. Performing exercises like farmer's walks, Turkish getups, pushing a car, sandbag carrying, etc. is a great way to improve general strength, stability, and conditioning.

Beginners
Although you should eventually lean toward a specific goal with regards to your weight training, you need to begin by building a solid foundation. Stick to purely compound exercises utilizing only free weights. You don't need to bother with machines or isolation work just yet. I know bicep curls and those pretty machines look tempting, but just hold off a few weeks. You need to start developing your physique as a unit and learning your weak points before you try to work on them. You should also learn how/gain the ability to control your body.

Work in the 12-15 rep range until you develop your stabilizer muscles and intermuscular coordination skills to the point where you can handle heavier weights. Focus heavily on form. Do a lot of research and watch videos of professionals performing various exercises. Starting out with the right technique will mean developing proper motor patterns right from the start, which is a Hell of a lot easier than correcting them later.



Well, there you have it. My take on the full body routine. Remember, these are general guidelines; I want you to change them as you see fit. There is a lot of room for creativity and specificity in full body routines. If you have never tried one before, then I highly suggest it.

great post, man!

Wow, I had no desire of trying a full body routine in the future, but this was certainly an interesting read. Excellent post there, CP.

looks good.

Great post but I cant do one of those, too much work, when am I going to talk to people at the gym?

Great post but I cant do one of those, too much work, when am I going to talk to people at the gym?

:laugh:

Great post but I cant do one of those, too much work, when am I going to talk to people at the gym?

Hahaha. Just include the talking as your 2 accessory movements. 3 sets of muscle head chit chat until failure and 3 sets of spitting game at hotties until failure.

By the way, thanks for the positive responses. I hope someone benefits from this!

:thumb:

I've updated the original post to include some information specific to beginners. I think full body routines are awesome for beginners. They call for lots of compound work, get the person quickly acclimated to the rigors of weight training, and take advantage of the fact that they can recover very quickly by using a high frequency for the muscles being trained.

good stuff CP. Guy's shouldn't knock full body till they try it...it can be plenty grueling!

good stuff CP. Guy's shouldn't knock full body till they try it...it can be plenty grueling!

Damned straight. Split routines just seem boring in comparison, at least in my opinion.

Awesome post!


::bookmark:::


J

Good post Pimp! :thumb:

Thanks for the positive feedback guys. I've been pasting this link all over the place lately. It was well worth the time it took to write.

Good post, CP. It'll def help when i work out my next routine which will def be a full body wo.

sticky sticky........

Damn, I wish I had seen this thread sooner! Thanx!

I'm not big on the whole body workouts but looking at this you may run into overtraining?

I'm not big on the whole body workouts but looking at this you may run into overtraining?

Not at all. You just have to adjust the volume accordingly. You can't do the volume of a split routine for each body part each day. You basically divide that volume into 3 days and do 1/3 of the volume each day, roughly.

the human body will adapt. that is what it does. it adpats to certain circumstances. Also, the volume isn't that high. PLanned overtraining (aka overreaching) can be beneficial for strength and overal conditioning when using the fitness-fatigue model of training. Lifting a varying intensities you can achieve a lot of work in one week with this routine. I squat 4 times per week right now.

the human body will adapt. that is what it does. it adpats to certain circumstances. Also, the volume isn't that high. PLanned overtraining (aka overreaching) can be beneficial for strength and overal conditioning when using the fitness-fatigue model of training. Lifting a varying intensities you can achieve a lot of work in one week with this routine. I squat 4 times per week right now.

Ok... I see your point with conditioning and maybe strength but it looks like a program for someone with out a lot of time and a beginner.

As far as fatigue is concerned I agree. I always work one or two exercises until fatigue on a given day, then do a few more force reps. Planned over-training I think is necessary for growth and strength but not working the same muscle group like more then 1 a week to fatigue, 2-4x's a week is fine if its a few sets but not extraneous super setting. Coming off of my last cycle My upper-body was outpacing my arms so I did two exercises a day of bi's and tri's and in like a week I swear I must have put on an additional 1/2 inch.

I just noticed that he made an attempt to apply this to bodybuilders and powerlifter. Woah. I don't think so the only way I see a bodybuilder doing this is if is in the off season or recovering from an injury or massive cycle. Which as p-funk said perfect for endurance training/fitness-fatigue model.

Ok... I see your point with conditioning and maybe strength but it looks like a program for someone with out a lot of time and a beginner.

As far as fatigue is concerned I agree. I always work one or two exercises until fatigue on a given day, then do a few more force reps. Planned over-training I think is necessary for growth and strength but not working the same muscle group like more then 1 a week to fatigue, 2-4x's a week is fine if its a few sets but not extraneous super setting. Coming off of my last cycle My upper-body was outpacing my arms so I did two exercises a day of bi's and tri's and in like a week I swear I must have put on an additional 1/2 inch.

I just noticed that he made an attempt to apply this to bodybuilders and powerlifter. Woah. I don't think so the only way I see a bodybuilder doing this is if is in the off season or recovering from an injury or massive cycle. Which as p-funk said perfect for endurance training/fitness-fatigue model.

Let me post a sample routine for you assuming a moderate volume routine where failure is not reached or only reached on the final set of a series for an exercise:

Workout A:
Squats x 3
Military Press x 3
Bent Rows x 3
Situps x 3
Hyperextensions x 3

Workout B:
Deadlifts x 3
Bench Press x 3
Chinups x 3
Leg Raises x 3
Reverse Hyperextensions x 3

That looks like overtraining to you assuming that the person works out 3 days per week and alternates between those two workouts?

Also, I am not the only one who thinks full body routines can be applied to bodybuilding. Check out HST, Dr. Darden's HIT programs, and T-nation's articles.

I can see your point. I think it's solid advice, I just disagree and since we are name dropping L. Rea of "Building the Perfect Beast" has a different argument. I need a lot more then that to get a pump.

I understand the idea behind the routine but working out 2 or 3 times a week? I hate getting into the arguments over the Internet but I know a few not pro but semi-pro bodybuilders, one professional athlete, and one powerlifter. Of the three the only one who would agree with the full body is my bud the athlete. Now I'm not ripping on you and I think you have good things to say but your telling me if I follow your routine I'm going to develop muscle similar to what bodybuilders look like? I asked my close bb friend and he agreed with me he thinks "they are best for endurance and people who are just looking to get in shape" A.

Anyhow, I'll check it out and maybe I'll learn something. I'd also like to know who uses a full-body routine. I know DC has something similar to a full body but I have also heard it has change significantly.

Thanx. ;)

I suppose you couldn't argue against the fact that olympic lifters use a full body routine. After all, every lift they do is a full body workout. So that gives you at least some idea of the physique and power that can be developed this way. I know P-funk has said many times that the Bulgarian olympic team (the top team in the world at the time) used to train the full body lifts three times a week or more. They won gold medals training like that and many olympic lifters still do.

I can see your point. I think it's solid advice, I just disagree and since we are name dropping L. Rea of "Building the Perfect Beast" has a different argument. I need a lot more then that to get a pump.

Pump has nothing to do with hypertrophy, so that quote doesn't mean much. You can get a pump doing curls with 10% of your 1RM, but I'll be damned if you gain singificant amounts of muscle mass with that kind of resistance.


I understand the idea behind the routine but working out 2 or 3 times a week? I hate getting into the arguments over the Internet but I know a few not pro but semi-pro bodybuilders, one professional athlete, and one powerlifter. Of the three the only one who would agree with the full body is my bud the athlete. Now I'm not ripping on you and I think you have good things to say but your telling me if I follow your routine I'm going to develop muscle similar to what bodybuilders look like? I asked my close bb friend and he agreed with me he thinks "they are best for endurance and people who are just looking to get in shape" A.

Yes, everyone has their opinions. I'm not saying a full body workout is the best way or the most optimal training method, but it is something that people can try if they have never tried it before. Split routines are not the only way to gain mass and strength.


Anyhow, I'll check it out and maybe I'll learn something. I'd also like to know who uses a full-body routine. I know DC has something similar to a full body but I have also heard it has change significantly.

The split he recommends is Upper-Lower, except that biceps and forearms are done on the lower body day.

I suppose you couldn't argue against the fact that olympic lifters use a full body routine. After all, every lift they do is a full body workout. So that gives you at least some idea of the physique and power that can be developed this way. I know P-funk has said many times that the Bulgarian olympic team (the top team in the world at the time) used to train the full body lifts three times a week or more. They won gold medals training like that and many olympic lifters still do.


3 times a week?? LOL, try 3 times a day for 6-7 days a week!!


Which as p-funk said perfect for endurance training/fitness-fatigue model

the fitness fatigue model is applied to strength training a lot of the time actually. It is planned over reaching and un-loading. Strength coachs will typically periodize this way to allow their athletes to train at high intensities/voume then un-load and then take advantage of the higher fitness level and strength that was created during the high intensity/volume phase of training.

Strength coachs will typically periodize this way to allow their athletes to train at high intensities/voume then un-load and then take advantage of the higher fitness level and strength that was created during the high intensity/volume phase of training.


So maybe it is beneficial for powerlifters? G*d D*mn! :D

So maybe it is beneficial for powerlifters? G*d D*mn! :D

Properly implemented, it can be beneficial to everyone. Use my template and design a routine. Give it a try before you totally discount its effectiveness.

[QUOTE=CowPimp]Pump has nothing to do with hypertrophy, so that quote doesn't mean much. You can get a pump doing curls with 10% of your 1RM, but I'll be damned if you gain singificant amounts of muscle mass with that kind of resistance.


No that's not the "pump" I'm talking about I'm talking about the one when your eye's are watering and your about to throw up and your skin feels like it was stretched. You want to keep it together but you manage to walk out with your head down with out falling down. Not that little pump from 45lb dumbell curls.

Properly implemented, it can be beneficial to everyone. Use my template and design a routine. Give it a try before you totally discount its effectiveness.

Not interested. Will never try and would only recommend it to someone who has no time and just wants to look fit but I want to be HUGE! My Goals are different than yours. Your full body routine is best suited for a non bb member. I have put on over 30lbs in the last year and I'm not finished until I'm at 240 @ 10%bf.

Not interested. Will never try and would only recommend it to someone who has no time and just wants to look fit but I want to be HUGE! My Goals are different than yours. Your full body routine is best suited for a non bb member. I have put on over 30lbs in the last year and I'm not finished until I'm at 240 @ 10%bf.

You're not going to shrivel up and die if you try one. If you hit a plateau, then give it a whirl. You never know, your body may respond well to the high frequency.

ok...G*d damn it! lol

No that's not the "pump" I'm talking about I'm talking about the one when your eye's are watering and your about to throw up and your skin feels like it was stretched. You want to keep it together but you manage to walk out with your head down with out falling down. Not that little pump from 45lb dumbell curls.

If you want that then do a full body routine in a circuit at a high level of intensity. It will make any split routine seem like child's play. Here's something you can try that will get you that feeling:

One set 20 rep squats with your 10RM. Rack the bar at failure, but unrack and goto failure again after about 10 deep breaths. Repeat until you hit 20 reps.

One set of bench presses at your 10RM. Do 2 sets of rest-pause repetitions.

One set of 25 chinups. Rest-pause until you hit 25.

One set of leg raises until total failure. Upon hitting failure, proceed with a static hold for as long as you can.

One set of farmer's walks to failure. Walk these babies until you drop the DBs out of your hand. Once you hit this point, take some deep breaths and turn around to return to the DB rack. Pause as necessary on the return trip.

One set of Turkish getups to failure. Follow with 2 sets of rest-pause repetitions.

Tell me if you don't puke from that. No rest in between exercises, so make sure to do a thorough warm-up before hand.

I dig the full body routine. My old routine was a slight variation of one. I worked every muscle every day, not to failure but to where I knew I worked out. I also targeted a two different muscle groups every day and trained that muscle to failure. Lets say I trained chest on Monday to failure, I'd still hit it a little every day until chest day rolled back around. I made huge strength gains, I could clean and press almost one and a half times what people bigger than me were doing. It used to freak them out.

Anyways, great post. I think the strength gained from a full body routine can help every one.

See also:

Designing a routine (http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?p=1227905#post1227905)
Designing a split routine (http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?p=1227906#post1227906)

I wrote some stuff on another board that also applies to the topic of total body workouts and setting them up and some of my views on the compared to a "bodybuilder" split. I will dump them here since they apply and some may benefit from them:

Total body workouts can take on a lot of different dynamics then just work on body part till you kill it at the begning of the workout and then everything else takes a back page.

The most important thing is how you break up the intensity and the work load over the week. If you aren't typically used to training this frequent (ie, you usually train like a bodybuilder) then you may be missing out on a chance to grow or improve since metabolic recovery has already taken place with in 48hrs. To add to that, the more frequent times you work out your body will adapt and become more effecient at frequent training sessions. This can be a very powerful thing when you then apply it to a periodized program such as acclimation/intensification or the fitness fatigue model.

Anyway, some ways you can do break apart a total body workout would be:

1) train one body part as your main lift and then accessory lifts for your other body parts:

mon- main work- legs...accessory work- upper body push and pull
wed- main work- upper body push....accessory work- upper body pull and
legs
fri- main work- upper body pull...accessory work- lower body and upper
body push

2) train a differnet element each day:

mon- power
wed- hypertrophy or endurance
fri- strength

3) alternate training dynamic effort and max effort lifts for your upper body and lower body and do aux work on the other days...this would have to be cycled over 2 weeks:

mon- upper body dynamic effort/lower body accessory
wed- lower body max effort/upper accessory
fri- upper body max effort/lower accessory
sat and sun- off
mon- lower body dynamic/upper accessory
wed- upper body max effort/lower accessory
fri- lower body max effort/upper accessory
etc.....


4) train one of the BIG three as a specific main lift each day and then accesory for everything else....

mon- squat
wed- bench
fri- dead

etc....there are a lot of ways to break up the intensity and work load and provided you balance out the volume to work with the higher frequency you will come out on top....ofcourse, you could also just say screw it and do something like high intensity training...haha


Training movements or even movement planes (horizontal push pull, vetical push pull, quad dominant, hip dominant, etc..) is in my opinion a much more methodical way of training. I put very little emphasis on my single joint work. The multi joint exercises need to be the prime focus.

Another point about training single bodyparts that I think gets over looked a lot (also a good case for training movement planes) is that when you train body parts it is broken into 5 days of training:

chest
back
legs
shoulders
arms

looking at that I see....

shoulders
shoulders
legs
shoulders
shoulders

Since all the upper body muscles that you are working cross the shoulders I would think it is a lot of overkill on those muscles....another way I see that traditional bodybuilder split is:

anterior
back
legs
anterior
anterior

not very much balance in the upper body is there?

Maybe this is why so many bodybuilders have sholder problems or that terrible slopped shoulder/upper cross syndrome to them.

Good points there P. I particularly like the second portion of the post. So many routines lack balance it is ridiculous. People focus way too much on their showy muscles and neglect the entire posterior part of their body. Not only is this a bad idea from a strength and asthetics standpoint, but it is very important in minimizing the chance of injury.

I'm using this right now to make a routine for my friend who is beginning.

Just wanted to bump this thread because I updated it to include some examples as well as an alternate template. I also touched up some of the things I said in it.

2) train a differnet element each day:

mon- power
wed- hypertrophy or endurance
fri- strength
I always get confused between these two. What kind of training would you set up to distinguish between the two? say, if i was setting up a 3x fullbody routine.

To put it all in perspective, Hypertrophy would be in the 6-12 rep range and Endurance 12+ rep range.

I always get confused between these two. What kind of training would you set up to distinguish between the two? say, if i was setting up a 3x fullbody routine.

To put it all in perspective, Hypertrophy would be in the 6-12 rep range and Endurance 12+ rep range.


strength would be working on limit abilities in a rep range of say 1-5 reps working with the corrosponding intensities of the rep ranges (ie 90-100%).

power would be working within the same rep rage as strength (1-5) but working with intensities around 60-70% of the 1RM. Power is basically work (force x distance)/time. You are trying to move as quickly as possible. This is neurological training. Power training is about working on a certiain force output in a short amount of time.

does that answer your question?

It sure does. Thanks P!

Apprieciating every word CowPimp... course my printer is going to be needing alot more ink!.. but hey.. if I got to workout it can as well!

power would be working within the same rep rage as strength (1-5) but working with intensities around 60-70% of the 1RM. Power is basically work (force x distance)/time. You are trying to move as quickly as possible. This is neurological training. Power training is about working on a certiain force output in a short amount of time.
I'm on a cut and as I'm not eating to grow, I'm working on improving neuroligical efficiency.

Trying to calculate todays routine. E.g. Todays heavy lift is ATG Squats, I can do 190 @3x3 with a 3min RI. So if i were to work it for power (say 3 reps), the calc comes out to ~140 (70% of 190). Does that sound right, coz it seems a bit light? or should i just leave it as 190 3x3 with a 3min RI?

What RI would you suggest for the power wo?

I'm on a cut and as I'm not eating to grow, I'm working on improving neuroligical efficiency.

Trying to calculate todays routine. E.g. Todays heavy lift is ATG Squats, I can do 190 @3x3 with a 3min RI. So if i were to work it for power (say 3 reps), the calc comes out to ~140 (70% of 190). Does that sound right, coz it seems a bit light? or should i just leave it as 190 3x3 with a 3min RI?

What RI would you suggest for the power wo?


well, I think you are going about it the wrong way. It isn't like you just wake up and say "oh, I need to start training power." I would come up with a program and learn with specific increases and make it fit into your overal program.

if 190 is your 4RM (since you are doing it for multiple sets of 3) that would make your precieved 1RM is 210lbs (rounding down).

So, if 210lbs is your 1RM, 50% of that would be 126lbs. I usually take that and do doubles for 8-10sets for 2 reps with 45sec rest. It seems light because it is......the whole point is bar speed! It is all about power.

But, this is dependant on your goals. If you are trying to increase more power endurance you could raise the intenisty to 80% (you 8RM) and go for 3-5 reps x 5 sets and work on bar speed over a great period of time.

This stuff is really goal dependant. That is why you need a specific program to follow.

best way to train for power is 17 mile runs with no protein shake post workout.

This stuff is really goal dependant. That is why you need a specific program to follow.
:nut: Ok, i've created a thread (http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?p=1318391#post1318391). Would appreciate your feedback.

I've really enjoyed reading this thread, especially the discussion about the usefulness of the full body workout. I think it is a common misconception that full body workouts are only useful for beginners and one cannot get results from them after the first few months of training.

The best results that I've ever gotten have been with full body workouts - maybe my body is in a minority that just responds better to that form of training, or maybe the programs were just designed better - and whenever I do the customary splits I feel like I am falling prey to the anterior/shoulder overtraining that CP and pfunk commented on. (The next time I try a split, hopefully I'll be able to avoid that using the info on other threads ;))

Anyway, today I worked out with a new program designed using advice from this thread about volume and exercise balance and selection (it also included a little more core training for basketball and more exercises w/fewer sets/exercise, umm, just for my personal enjoyment of variety :)). The friend I trained with, who is in decent shape, was completely beat, and I was definitely feeling it like I haven't in a while...felt great though! So thanks for the great sticky, CP, and discussion, all.

A couple questions: CP (or anyone who knows), would you mind elaborating on the significance of alternating vertical push/pull with horizantal push/pull? (I can start another thread if you want, but I thought it was directly relevant here.) What I mean is, I've always thought, especially with the pulling movements, that they were basically just variations of "back exercises," so I didn't know that there was a need to distinguish between horizantal and vertical. I am guessing it just boils down to anatomy and creating proper muscle balance.

Finally, I am still getting used to the idea of thinking of exercises in terms of movements and not body parts; quite honestly this was a new concept to me before joining this forum. Could any of you direct me to some resources that elaborate on that - why it is superior, what concepts and studies are behind it, etc?

Thanks again, all.

A couple questions: CP (or anyone who knows), would you mind elaborating on the significance of alternating vertical push/pull with horizantal push/pull? (I can start another thread if you want, but I thought it was directly relevant here.) What I mean is, I've always thought, especially with the pulling movements, that they were basically just variations of "back exercises," so I didn't know that there was a need to distinguish between horizantal and vertical. I am guessing it just boils down to anatomy and creating proper muscle balance.

a) the lats are a big broad muscle and serve many functions. The fibers move in different ways and it can perform both horizontal extension, sagital plane extension and even adduction of the humerus. It is important to train the many functions of the muscle to build stability.

b) With regard to the scapula and the muscles that attach and stabilize it.....you would want to focus on both vertical and horizontal rowing movements. While yes, they are both training your "back", the movement at the scapula is different....with horizontal movements leading to adduction of the scapula (as well as retraction) and vertical movements leading to depression and downward rotation of the scapula.


So, although they are all back exercises. The way that movement occurs during these exercises is totally different and should be considered. Bringing us back to the mantra "train movements, not body parts".

Thanks, p, that was helpful. So the theory is that between horizantal and vertical push/pull and lower push/pull, you are working all (or most) of the articulations of each main muscle group in a balanced fashion?

Thanks, p, that was helpful. So the theory is that between horizantal and vertical push/pull and lower push/pull, you are working all (or most) of the articulations of each main muscle group in a balanced fashion?

the whole point of training movements and not bodyparts IMO is so that you can easily balance your training, because if not it can lead to improper posture, injury, etc.
for every horizontal push do a horizontal pull. for every vertical push do a vertical pull, etc.
I bet in the gym you see alot of guys with rounded shoulders. It is because they bench so frequently without doing an equal amount of rowing. Think about it as the pressing muscles over powering the scapular retractors and pulling them apart. This can happen when the pressing muscles are stronger than the pulling muscles, or if they are tighter. When they get stronger they want to get tighter if you don't train the scapular retractrors equally.

So yes it is all about balance, that is the key thing I look at when someone posts their routine.

Thanks, p, that was helpful. So the theory is that between horizantal and vertical push/pull and lower push/pull, you are working all (or most) of the articulations of each main muscle group in a balanced fashion?

That's kind of the idea, yes. Also, some muscles are emphasized more depending on the movement. For example, your scapular retractors are going to get a lot of work during a row, but they aren't getting nearly the same work during a chinup (Although some scapular retractors also depress and rotate the scapula, so there is some crossover, but you get the idea; the lats are an example of a muscle that does all of those things). So, it's not just training the various functions of specific muscles, but trying to get a good balance of stimuli for the various muscle groups involved in different kinds of pulling movements.

Great - thanks for all the input, guys, I appreciate it :thumb:

Whilst I am a big fan of FBW's and push/pull etc does all this stuff about balance necessarily mean that the balance must occur in the same workout? i.e If I train pulling movements today and pushing movements in 2 days time have I still achieved balance in the long haul?

Whilst I am a big fan of FBW's and push/pull etc does all this stuff about balance necessarily mean that the balance must occur in the same workout? i.e If I train pulling movements today and pushing movements in 2 days time have I still achieved balance in the long haul?

yes. you can balance them (movement patterns) out over the week.

I will be starting Rippetoe's Starting Strength, which is very similar to how you have it set up here. I do have one question, i have noticed that Rippetoe has the squat (or lower push in your case) always before the deadlift. I've been told it is a bad idea to do deadlifts before squatting because it will tax your lower back, and then you load a barbell on your back and try to squat it with a greater tendency for injury. What is everyone's take on deads before squats? And if you are curious, the link to Rippetoe's stuff Guide to Novice Barbell Training, aka the Official Rippetoe-Starting Strength FAQ - Bodybuilding.com Forums (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224)