Thread: Meal Combos.

it depends on your goals. maintaining low serum insulin levels is essential to keeping the body in a constant anabolic state if one is bulking and training natural...

I've tried it. Not much difference from what i felt.

The theory is decent, but in practise, you're right - the overall calories determine the final result.

By the way, unless you're eating pure oil (or total fat, no carbs or protein) you're always gonna have some sort of insulin response, you'll never stop it altogether. But yes, fat digestion slows gastric emptying to some degree and causes a slower and more stabilised insulin release.

The only time i wouldn't take carbs with fat is post workout if i was using simple carbs or during a refeed/carb load where i want to keep fat ingestion as low as possible. Unless the fat is CLA supplementation of course.

Cool, that answers my questions. And TCD, yeah i know that there is an insulin response from every meal, i sort of worded my post wrong, i meant that you keep insulin low (not zero) when you use fat to slow digestion.

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
I've tried it. Not much difference from what i felt.

The theory is decent, but in practise, you're right - the overall calories determine the final result.

By the way, unless you're eating pure oil (or total fat, no carbs or protein) you're always gonna have some sort of insulin response, you'll never stop it altogether. But yes, fat digestion slows gastric emptying to some degree and causes a slower and more stabilised insulin release.

The only time i wouldn't take carbs with fat is post workout if i was using simple carbs or during a refeed/carb load where i want to keep fat ingestion as low as possible. Unless the fat is CLA supplementation of course.

You're on a roll today Chicken Baby...I agree

Resurrection.


With a quote:

For those who missed it, John is suggesting that protein and fat be
eaten, or protein and carbs, but not carbs and fat (this is just old
voodoo food combining bullshit even if Berardi says it isn't), on the
basis that the insulin from carbs will store the fat. Which is simply
wrong/misguided on several levels:

1. It takes only miniscule amounts of insulin to activate fat cell
storage and inhibit mobilization.

2. Protein raises insulin more than enough to do this.

3. Fat activates it's own storage without insulin, due to the activity
of acylation stimulation protein (ASP). The old model was that insulin
activates lipoprotein lipase (LPL) which dissassembles chylomicrons to
store the fatty acids. The discovery of ASP makes this simplistic model
obsolete. Animals bred without LPL but with ASP get fat just fine and
ASP doesn't require insulin for fat storage (insulin will have an
additive effect but fat will store itself just fine without insulin).

4. I saw a paper yesterday suggesting that a pure fat load will activate
LPL (lipoprotein lipase) without insulin anyhow. It's still going to
come down to 24 hour calorie balance in the long run.

That's on top of the simple fact that, if you're on a carb-based diet in
the first place, eating protein without carbs is just fucking stupid.
But I digress.

TCD....are those your points? (1-4)


DP

Nah, it's a quote from Lyle where he's bashing the shit out of John Beradi and the rest of the test.com bunch.

No...what I'm saying are points 1-4 deemed correct?


DP

Well, it was a recent (few months old) thread on MFW i got it off.

ASP sounds interesting eh?

You should look into atrial natriuretic peptide and see what you can dig up. It looks like it's probably a moot point, since it doesn't look like we can influence with any of our own actions, except maybe inducing our own anxiety attacks lol.

Originally posted by Dr. Pain
Thank you, I appreciate that....BUT, you are missing MY POINT!


1-4 are Lyle's?

And are they Valid.....or Invalid?


DP

The entire quote is Lyle's.

That's why i put the entire thing in quote-thingies.

Let's look at #1 and #2 ...do you agree?


DP

I know where this is going.

You're going to link this back to what i said about the gluconeogenesis from protein effecting fat burning.

But like i've said all along, calorie deficit changes the impact of the hormones.

You create the negative energy balance and no matter what insulin is doing, you can drop fat, but it may become more of a factor when getting further below your setpoint and when you come to stubborn fat areas.

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
I know where this is going.

You're going to link this back to what I said about the gluconeogenesis from protein effecting fat burning.

Call me when you have something to the effect of an apology....or a DP you were right (fuck, I'd even accept a "You might" be right), Lyle says so too!


DP

Not quite.

Here's a quote from you from the now locked thread:

TCD........you'll find that one of the goals on Meal timing is amino absorption and uptake.....most aminos complete this with 3-4 hours with the exception of L-Leucine which can last for up to 7 hours....



.....now....suppose you ingest amino's more frequently....say at the "it doesn't matter at the end of the day rate" WHAT happens to excess aminos in the body??

Might they be converted to serum glucose via hepatic gluconeogenesis??? Might the elevation in glucose trigger an insulin flux? What happens to lipolysis in the presence of higher insulin levels????

The debate was originally about eating every three hours over every 2.

Even if gluconeogenesis stimulated the insulin response enough to shut off the lipolysis, as you said yourself, the uptake of aminos takes anything from 3-4 hours, so theoretically, going on your idea, going 5 hours without a next meal would be a better idea.

Eat every 2 hours: food is still awaiting digestion/absorbtion somewhere in the digestive tract/intestines (based on a "real food" meal, whatever that may be. We're not talking dextrose and whey here of course). So insulin is still mediated.

Eat every 3 hours: Well, since it takes upwards of 3-4 hours, there's gonna be no difference here than with eating every 2 hours.

At the end of the day, one hour difference won't make much, if any difference.

I will, however, concede that i was wrong by saying that i didn't think gluconeogenesis would shut off lipolysis. I'll admit that - without giving a shit either, incidentally.

Figuratively speaking, I think i'd probably argue a point i knew was wrong just for the hell of arguing the point. In fact, one of these days....

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy

We're not talking dextrose and whey here of course). So insulin is still mediated.

Actually we are, in theory.......or whey sans sugar

I will, however, concede that i was wrong by saying that I didn't think gluconeogenesis would shut off lipolysis. I'll admit that - without giving a shit either, incidentally.

Figuratively speaking, I think i'd probably argue a point i knew was wrong just for the hell of arguing the point. In fact, one of these days....

Insulin, Insulin Resistance, and Sensitivity....TCD.........I hand you the keys

YMWV (replaced the M with a W, because being an unique indidividual, with an unique metabolism (and being fucking stubborn as hell).....Your Milage WILL Vary


DP

Originally posted by Dr. Pain
Actually we are, in theory.......or whey sans sugar



Insulin, Insulin Resistance, and Sensitivity....TCD.........I hand you the keys

YMWV (replaced the M with a W, because being an unique indidividual, with an unique metabolism (and being fucking stubborn as hell).....Your Milage WILL Vary


DP

Huh?

Dude, you have totally lost me here.

(And call me Rob).