Cardio program for stubborn fat

Robboe · 08-09-2002, 10:59 AM

I was perusing some various boards and found this by Lyle. It's quite recent (July) and quite intriging (toss, that is spelled wrong, i know). I was curious of some feedback to see what you dishcloths think of it:

Quote:

Well, the nice thing is that, sort of by definition, the successful bodybuilders and such don't have as much of a problem with stubborn fat (I like the term invincible) as the rest of us. It's semi-circular reasoning mind you but it still holds.

Basically, if they are successful, they don't have problems with it; if they had problems with it, they wouldn't be successful.

But yes, trying to get rid of taht last little stubborn fat (which just does NOT want to be mobilized for all kinds of annoying reasons) can lead to more muscle loss. Your body has to fulfill the caloric deficit from somewhere; if you can't mobilize fatty acids to do it, the calories will come from muscle.

But that's all kind of tangential, the question is what, if anything can be done about it.

The first question is why it's so stubborn and there are many different reasons. Part of it has to do with the receptor types on the fat cells (alpha-2 vs. beta-1,2). Stubborn fat has more alpha-2 receptors which send anti-fat mobilizing signals.

There is also a blood flow issue, stubborn fat has poor blood flow. So it's hard to get fat mobilizing hormones in or the fatty acids out. Unfortunately, the research can't seem to decide what's causing the blood flow problems exactly: that is what all is regulating it (it's a combination of alpha and beta adrenoreceptor but nobody seems to be sure which are involved exactly, nitric oxide plays a role, so does angiotensin, so do prostaglandins, there may be other factors).

There are other reasons too, but not as important.

Without going into the brutally long and complicated mental machinations that led me to this (and I'm still working on the overall scheme, but you can be a guinea pig), here's my current thoughts on how to approach it.

First and foremost, this is one of the places where morning/pre-breakfast cardio is probably crucially important.

An hour or two before cardio, take 200 mg caffeine (vivarin) with 1-3 grams of L-tyrosine (NO ephedrine).

there are two segments to the cardio.
The first segment is for mobilization, to get those stubborn fatty acids out of the fat cell.
The second segment is the oxidation part, to burn them off in the muscle.

For the first segment of the cardio, use a machine that you don't normally use. So if you normally do the treadmill, do the first segment on the stairmaster or bike or something. Just make it different.

First segment:
warmup: 3-5 minutes
go hard: 5-10 minutes. I mean hard, as hard as you can stand for the entire time. This will NOT be fun on lowered blood glucose. I've considered putting intervals here but haven't found the data I need to make up my mind. If you do intervals, go somethign like 5X1' all out wiht 1' break (10' total intervals)

Rest 5', just sit on your butt, drink water, try not to puke.

Go to your normal cardio machine. Do at least 30 minutes at moderate/high moderate intensity (below lactate threshold but decent intensity). I'd say 45' maximum here but I'm still making up my mind and looking at data.

Go home, an hour later, have a small protein meal (25-50 grams or so). No dietary fat.

2-3 hours later, go back to normal diet eating.

Your daily calories shouldn't be any different than they were already, they are just distributed differently, you only have 100-200 after cardio, and then the rest afterwards.

I'd do that maybe 3 days per week to start.

Quick reasons:

These two are the same answer: To get stubborn fat mobilized, you have to overcome fairly severe resistance in terms of both blood flow and lipolysis, this requires very high concentrations of catecholamines (adrenaline/noradrenaline). Sadly, jacking up levels of catecholamines (necessary for mobilization) limits burning in the muscle which is why you follow the high intensity with low intensity.

Basically, you jack up levels to get the fat mobilized, and then let them fall so that the fatty acid can be burned in the muscle.

I ahve a study showing that E before intense activity lowers the catecholamine response, that's the reason for avoiding it. Studies also show a lower than normla catecholamine response as people adapt to a given type of cardio; doing a different machine will result in a higher catecholamine response than you'd other wise get.

w8lifter · 08-09-2002, 11:58 AM

Very interesting! Incidentally, that's how I do my cardio....balls to the wall the first ten minutes...however, I almost always use the same machine, and I almost always use ephedrine...I didn't know it lowered the catecolamine response.

btw...it's "intriguing"

Robboe · 08-09-2002, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by w8lifter
Very interesting! Incidentally, that's how I do my cardio....balls to the wall the first ten minutes...however, I almost always use the same machine, and I almost always use ephedrine...I didn't know it lowered the catecolamine response.

btw...it's "intriguing"

Yeah, i just looked it up

Robboe · 08-09-2002, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by w8lifter
and I almost always use ephedrine...I didn't know it lowered the catecolamine response.

Well, i just prompted a big pubmed search fo the past 15 minutes and i just found this, but i'm still looking:

Quote:

Clin Sci (Lond) 1999 May;96(5):483-91 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut

Acute effect of ephedrine on 24-h energy balance.

Shannon JR, Gottesdiener K, Jordan J, Chen K, Flattery S, Larson PJ, Candelore MR, Gertz B, Robertson D, Sun M.

Autonomic Dysfunction Center, AA3228 MCN, Vanderbilt University, Nashville, TN 37232-2195, USA.

Ephedrine is used to help achieve weight control. Data on its true efficacy and mechanisms in altering energy balance in human subjects are limited. We aimed to determine the acute effect of ephedrine on 24-h energy expenditure, mechanical work and urinary catecholamines in a double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled, two-period crossover study. Ten healthy volunteers were given ephedrine (50 mg) or placebo thrice daily during each of two 24-h periods (ephedrine and placebo) in a whole-room indirect calorimeter, which accurately measures minute-by-minute energy expenditure and mechanical work. Measurements were taken of 24-h energy expenditure, mechanical work, urinary catecholamines and binding of (+/-)ephedrine in vitro to human beta1-, beta2- and beta3-adrenoreceptors. Twenty-four-hour energy expenditure was 3.6% greater (8965+/-1301 versus 8648+/-1347 kJ, P<0.05) with ephedrine than with placebo, but mechanical work was not different between the ephedrine and placebo periods. Noradrenaline excretion was lower with ephedrine (0.032+/-0.011 microg/mg creatinine) compared with placebo (0.044+/-0.012 microg/mg creatinine) (P<0.05). (+/-)Ephedrine is a relatively weak partial agonist of human beta1- and beta2-adrenoreceptors, and had no detectable activity at human beta3-adrenoreceptors. Ephedrine (50 mg thrice daily) modestly increases energy expenditure in normal human subjects. A lack of binding of ephedrine to beta3-adrenoreceptors and the observed decrease in urinary noradrenaline during ephedrine treatment suggest that the thermogenic effect of ephedrine results from direct beta1-/beta2-adrenoreceptor agonism. An indirect beta3-adrenergic effect through the release of noradrenaline seems unlikely as urinary noradrenaline decreased significantly with ephedrine.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 10209080 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Robboe · 08-09-2002, 12:19 PM

Oh, for anyone unsure, 'noradrenaline' is also 'norepinephrine' and is one of the catecholmines.

Destram · 08-09-2002, 12:27 PM

Working as hard as you can for 5-10 minutes then sitting on your butt is very hard on the heart.

davatar · 08-09-2002, 12:55 PM

When I do that I get lightheaded from all the blood flowing away from my brain, at which point I usually say to myself "I feel like crap today" and wimp out. Perhaps a regular warmup 10-15 minutes and then intervals, followed by endurance until you've done about 60 minutes?

Robboe · 08-10-2002, 05:31 AM

Here's the study for Leah:

Quote:

Med Sci Sports Exerc 2002 Feb;34(2):344-9 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut

Effect of ingesting caffeine and ephedrine on 10-km run performance.

Bell DG, McLellan TM, Sabiston CM.

Defence and Civil Institute of Environmental Medicine, Toronto, Ontario, Canada. doug.bell@dciem.dnd.ca

. BACKGROUND: The ingestion of either caffeine (C) or ephedrine (E) has been shown to improve performance during high-intensity aerobic activity lasting 10-20 min, with an additive effect being found when the combination (C + E) was ingested. It was the purpose of this study to determine if the addition of E to C would improve performance in activity lasting longer than 20 min. METHODS: One and one half hours after ingesting a placebo (P), C (4 mg/kg), E (0.8 mg/kg), or C + E, 12 subjects performed a 10-km run while wearing a helmet and backpack weighing 11 kg. The trials were performed in a climatic suite at 12-13 degrees C, on a treadmill where the speed was regulated by the subject. VO(2), VCO(2), V(E), heart rate (HR), and rating of perceived exertion (RPE) were measured during the run at 15 and 30 min, and again when the individual reached 9 km. Blood was sampled at 15 and 30 min and again at the end of the run and assayed for lactate, glucose, and catecholamines. RESULTS: Run times (mean +/- SD), in minutes, were for C (46.0 +/- 2.8), E (45.5 +/- 2.9), C + E (45.7 +/- 3.3), and P (46.8 +/- 3.2). The run times for the E trials (E and C + E) were significantly reduced compared with the non-E trials (C and P). Pace was increased for the E trials compared with the non-E trials over the last 5 km of the run. VO(2) was not affected by drug ingestion. HR was elevated for the ephedrine trials (E and C + E). RPE remained similar for all trails. Caffeine increased the epinephrine and norepinephrine response associated with exercise and also increased blood lactate, glucose, and glycerol levels. Ephedrine reduced the epinephrine response but increased dopamine and FFA levels. CONCLUSION: The previously seen additive nature of E and C was not evident in this study, with the primary ergogenic effect being attributed to E.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Controlled Clinical Trial

PMID: 11828246 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Lyle sent me it this morning. Thank God, i was having a nightmare finding it.

Robboe · 08-10-2002, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by davatar
When I do that I get lightheaded from all the blood flowing away from my brain, at which point I usually say to myself "I feel like crap today" and wimp out. Perhaps a regular warmup 10-15 minutes and then intervals, followed by endurance until you've done about 60 minutes?

You could very easily do some sort of GPP workout for 15-20 minutes: light weights, high reps (12-20 region, no where near failure though remember), short rest periods for your entire body. Not only can this potentially aid in your heavy resistance training, but it's much more fun to do then HIIT running.

Here's a short program i do if i'm doing an entire body workout, although i do sometimes just go by what i fancy doing on the day - usually exercises that i don't usually do, like i said, it makes it fun.

squats: 2-3 sets, all in the 12-20 rep region. about 30 seconds rest between sets if you're using 12 reps or about a minute between sets if you're using 20, or else the lactic acid build up will really be quite painful, and it really serves no practical use except maybe fatiguing your muscles for your heavy training. (which is not a good thing remember, you want your strength up when dieting, cause if you're not pushing the same weight in calorie deficit then your body has no reason to keep a hold of the muscle.)

SLDLs: 2-3 sets, 12-20 reps.

bench (inclined, declined or flat, DB or BB, whatever): 2-3 sets, 12 reps, 30 seconds rest between sets. Benching doesn't take as much out of you as say, squats, so use shorter rest periods, which means using lower reps than 20.

row (any horizontal row): 2-3 sets, same protocol as benching.

Flye (any variation): 2 sets, same protocol.

Pulldown (chins are usually too strenuous [sp?] if you do upwards of 10 or so reps, which can adversely effect your heavy resistance performance on pulling days, so lighter pulldowns are better [IMO, anyway.]): 2 sets, same protocol.

Notice that this workout practises the opposing muscle groups. There's an article by Poulquin about this method for heavy training which i shall try and dig up for you, unless someone beats me to it, or can find it faster for me.

By now, you should be quite beat, but if you want you can do 1-2 sets for an overhead press for shoulders and 1 set of a bicep and tricep exercise if you wish.

It's enjoyable, it's anaerobic, it'll knock you into a better hormonal state and it'll burn calories. After this, move onto your longer duration of aerobic cardio after about 5 minutes of rest. Hopefully this will make you more able to carry out the task.

Incidentally, if earlier morning cardio is unpractical, Lyle has told me that if you wait about 3-4 hours after previously eating then you may similar effects, and if you're following a periodical low carb diet, then it should yield similar effects, so doing it after work is ok.

w8lifter · 08-10-2002, 05:46 AM

Very excellent...spanks Chicken Baby!

Buster840 · 08-10-2002, 08:34 PM

And again I say this is the best forum! You guys and Gals appear to be the most informed body builders I have come accross. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
However could you put the studies in more simpler terms for us
less educated wanna be's?
Simply put is it better to take caffeen with out ephedrin? on days when you do early morning workouts?

Robboe · 08-11-2002, 08:13 AM

Depends what kind of cardio you're doing.

If you're gonna try this program, than just do exactly what Lyle says and drop the E.

w8lifter · 08-11-2002, 08:18 AM

Quote:

An hour or two before cardio, take 200 mg caffeine (vivarin) with 1-3 grams of L-tyrosine (NO ephedrine).

Okay questions first....do I have to take this stack in order for Lyle to get anything out of my reports? Cause I can tell you right now I won't take it.

And does it have to be morning cardio or can it be post-w/o?

Robboe · 08-11-2002, 08:22 AM

Probably, yes.

You still avoiding caffiene?

And like i said earlier, pre-breakfast is ideal, but you can still get similar effects if you do it about 3-4 hours after your last meal if you're on a cyclical low carb diet. Not totally sure about a carb-based diet though.

I'm sure post w/o before eating anything will be fine.

w8lifter · 08-11-2002, 08:25 AM

Well I would have to clear it w/ DP first

Robboe · 08-11-2002, 09:03 AM

I don't think you need to worry about caf that much.

200mg caffiene just before cardio is fine.

The reason people say caf induces insulin resistance for a short period of time is cause it stimulates the catecholmine release which then mobilise fat and increase the amount of FFA's in the blood. Anytime you increase FFA's in the blood you reduce insulin sensitivity. I think it's a fair trade off.

And remember, i've shown you the studies showing that caffiene is fine for people who train regularly.

But if you wanna clear it with DP, then fine.

08-09-2002, 12:19 PM	#5
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,151	Oh, for anyone unsure, 'noradrenaline' is also 'norepinephrine' and is one of the catecholmines.
	Being held down by The Man

08-10-2002, 08:34 PM	#11
Buster840 Cool ole fart! Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 52	And again I say this is the best forum! You guys and Gals appear to be the most informed body builders I have come accross. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. However could you put the studies in more simpler terms for us less educated wanna be's? Simply put is it better to take caffeen with out ephedrin? on days when you do early morning workouts?
	BobbyTN A rookie @ 46

08-11-2002, 08:13 AM	#12
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,151	Depends what kind of cardio you're doing. If you're gonna try this program, than just do exactly what Lyle says and drop the E.
	Being held down by The Man

08-11-2002, 08:22 AM	#14
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,151	Probably, yes. You still avoiding caffiene? And like i said earlier, pre-breakfast is ideal, but you can still get similar effects if you do it about 3-4 hours after your last meal if you're on a cyclical low carb diet. Not totally sure about a carb-based diet though. I'm sure post w/o before eating anything will be fine.
	Being held down by The Man

08-11-2002, 09:03 AM	#16
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,151	I don't think you need to worry about caf that much. 200mg caffiene just before cardio is fine. The reason people say caf induces insulin resistance for a short period of time is cause it stimulates the catecholmine release which then mobilise fat and increase the amount of FFA's in the blood. Anytime you increase FFA's in the blood you reduce insulin sensitivity. I think it's a fair trade off. And remember, i've shown you the studies showing that caffiene is fine for people who train regularly. But if you wanna clear it with DP, then fine.
	Being held down by The Man

08-09-2002, 11:58 AM	#2
w8lifter Join Date: May 2001 Location: Around..... Posts: 14,964	Very interesting! Incidentally, that's how I do my cardio....balls to the wall the first ten minutes...however, I almost always use the same machine, and I almost always use ephedrine...I didn't know it lowered the catecolamine response. btw...it's "intriguing"

08-09-2002, 12:27 PM	#6
Destram Cat Lover Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: .... Posts: 70	Working as hard as you can for 5-10 minutes then sitting on your butt is very hard on the heart.

08-09-2002, 12:55 PM	#7
davatar Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Socal Posts: 21	When I do that I get lightheaded from all the blood flowing away from my brain, at which point I usually say to myself "I feel like crap today" and wimp out. Perhaps a regular warmup 10-15 minutes and then intervals, followed by endurance until you've done about 60 minutes?

08-10-2002, 05:46 AM	#10
w8lifter Join Date: May 2001 Location: Around..... Posts: 14,964	Very excellent...spanks Chicken Baby!

08-11-2002, 08:25 AM	#15
w8lifter Join Date: May 2001 Location: Around..... Posts: 14,964	Well I would have to clear it w/ DP first

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