cytrix

I have been doing NHE for a while now, and i feel great and have lowered my body fat. Lately, I hit a plateau though. I do the carb ups twice weekly. My caloric intake is about body weight x 12. My carb up consisits of 1 g carbs / pound lean body mass. I want to include some yohimbe to get those stubborn female fat deposits. How much is the optimum dosage, how often? I tolerate it well. Can I have coffee with it? I don't use ephedrin since I read it is no good anyway(I used to in the past). I there anythin else I can do to revv things up a little?

Robboe

Firstly, LMAO, purely cause i never knew you were female.

Ok, i'm done.

Secondly, why no ephedrine?

Thirdly, taking it with caff should be ok, i think.

But do me a favour, if you will, and take the Y on it's own first and assess your tolerance first.

Eph + Y can =... well, death, unfortunately.

Maybe you can handle it though, but be weary of mixing the two.

Fourthly, what have you used as a gauge to establish that fat loss has slowed? Are you weighing in once a week under the same conditions?

have you tried lowering calories?

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cytrix

Yes, I think most thought I was male, because of the way they replied
About the ephedrine, there was a post about this on this forum recently, I honestly have not had the time to read it carefully enough to fully understand it - maybe someone can explain it in a short to the point way?
I have not tried lowering calories since doing this on BW x 12, because I feel I would be hungry then. In the past I tried a lower intake, and my energy was lacking quickly.
How much yohimbe should one take? I bought Twinlab's yohimbe which is standarized at 8 mg per caps. I was thinking 3 caps daily for best / quickest results?

Robboe

Where's the ephedrine thread?

Ok, you said you've been dropping body fat well, thus your bodyweight has gone down, correct?

This would mean that your cals need to come down in compliance, ie:

if i was 200lbs and was eating x12 bw, i'd be eating 2400kcals.

If i drop to 195lbs, naturally, using the x12 bw my cals should be reduced to around 2340kcals, since my plan is to continue dropping fat.

Thus, to ensure continuing fat loss, drop cals were you see fit. A good guide is:

2lb+ loss = up cals.
2lb loss = Assess energy and such and how you feel and decide whether cals need to be upped very slightly.
0.5-1.5lb loss = spot on, keep cals the same.
0lb loss = drop cals.
0.5lb+ gain = drop cals.

If you're concerned about hunger, then just add a bit more fibre from the likes of green veg or salad stuff.

What type of diet were you following in the past?

And i ask again, what are you using to establish that fat loss has slowed?

As far as the Yohimbe goes, when you say standardised to 8mg a cap, are you referring to 8mg Yohimbe, or 8mg yohimbine?

I've never looked at twinlabs products, sorry, so i'm unsure.

The active alkaloid of yohimbe is yohimbine, but some people have reported some interesting feeling from yohimbe that they don't attribute to the yohimbine that must be attributed to the other alkaloids present. But ideally, you go for the yohimbine.

I think the best deal on yohimbine HCL is prolly at www.1fast400.com but i'm not 100% sure.

As far as yohimbe dosing, tell me the yohimbine content and i can give you a better idea.

If you were using the yohimbine HCL caps (2.5mg each of yohimbine) then i'd say start off lightly and work your way up to maybe 3 or 4 caps a day, avoiding using it with ephedrine as best as you can.

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cytrix

Thanx TCD, I think you are right about adjusting my calories to my new bodyweight.
In the past I had been eating a general low carb diet, but carbs with every meal, whereas now I follow NHE with carb ups 2 x weekly.
The Yohimbe caps by Twinlab contain 8 mg YohimBINE. Actually, I did a search and found that the suggested intake is 0.2 mg / pound bodyweight, for example 16 mg (=2 caps) at a BW of 180 lbs.
I don't know where the info regarding the ephedrine is, it was within another thread - i will try to find it doing a search on this forum, I let you know.

Question: How often should I take the Yohimbe at the recommended dosage as above, do you think 2 x daily? Is there a maximum dosage that you should not exceed? I could not find anything on that.

cytrix

I can't find the post after doing a search. Anyhow, recently I read in Muscular Development Mag that the EC stack did not increase metabolic rate more than a meal alone, thus suggesting, that unless you do a diet thats very low in cal it won't do anything for you in terms of increased weight loss. It does give you an energy boost, suppresses appetite and stimulates the thyroid though, so again on a diet such as NHE this is unnecessary because it's not super low in cal, the carb ups take care of the tyroid already, and the energy boost, well that never lasts for long anyhow, and the appetite is controlled already due to the low insulin levels.

What do you think TCD (or anyone who knows )

So, would Yohimbe alone, after taking this into consideration, be just fine? It definitely allows for higher dosages without taking risks, because I think it would be impossible to take 16 mg with a full EC stack and not getting a heart attack! And, the right high enough dosage of Yohimbe is imporatant for sufficient a-receptor inhibition and most sufficient lipolysis. What's your take on this?

Duncan

I would not put much stock in anything you read out of Muscular development.

I am taking MD6 and doing basically the same diet. According to the label, it contains 6mg Yohimbine Hcl per serving and I take it 3 times a day with no probs. Actually, I also take Yohimburn 30-45 minutes prior to aerobic cardio depending on when I have a client. Decent results, I don't feel the Yohimbine is doing much more than the MD6 would do alone and will probably sell it to a chick in the near future.

Personally, I would take the EC as well, but I know I can tolerate it.

Man on a mission!

Robboe

Nice one. And you're liking NHE thus far?

Where did you get that formula?

Maybe i'm being dumb here, but isn't 0.2mg per lb of bw at a bodyweight of 180lbs 36mg?

180 x 0.2 = 36.

That sounds like a helluva lot to start off with. I'd say play it by ear and see how it effects you. Start with 1-2 tabs a day and go from there. Rememeber, orals get distributed systemically so give it a good few hours before deciding you need another tab (or else you'll really kick up your CNS).

Don't worry about it.

Well, i'm still waiting for my Y HCL to arrive so i can't give a personal view just yet, but again, i'd hazard a guess that you need to take it easy and assess how it effects you. You can never be too sure with these things, that they'll effect everyone the same.

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Robboe

EC promote thermogenesis and fat mobilisation. By ensuring beta receptor stimulation above a certain threshold via epinephrine and norepinephrine you regulate lipolysis. Keeping lypolysis (ie fat burning) increased = what you want to do on a diet.

The NHE carb ups don't upregulate the thyroid as such, they're just there to ensure that the thyroid doesn't downregulate (or downregulate too much, cause with any calorie deficit, leptin drops like a stone, potentially by about 50% within the first week alone, without that much of a profound effect on bodyfat stores [ie the fat cell realises it's no longer in a 'fed state'] and this drop in leptin takes everything else down with it, including the thyroid). The good thing about the carb ups are the 'metabolic effects' you feel. ie when you carb up, you may (like me) feel hot and almost sweaty. This is your body upping it's metabolic rate in response to the carb loading in a bid to expend some of the calories you're filling up on. It's good cause it follows through the next few days and with insulin being low on such a diet (insulin being the primary establisher of lipoysis) you ensure continued fat burning, providing your cals are still in deficit.


Actually, no. Yohimbine only allows for 'proper' high doses transdermally, which means extra $$$. By taking it orally you still excite the CNS and get the side effects eg jitters etc... So high doses are still a bad idea.

Keeping the Y and E as far apart as possible is definitely recommended. And if you do opt to mix the two, definitely stay away from cardio, which will elevate BP and HR even further and it really can spell disaster.

I'm not sure on the exact dosage for "sufficient" a-2 receptor inhibition. I'm not entirely sure if it's dose dependant, since it's a selective antagonist (ie it will only go for the a-receptors).

EC however is sorta dose dependant, cause you want to stimulate enough epinephrine and norepinephrine past a threshold to activate the Beta receptors (cause at low E and NE levels only the a-receptors are activated, since E and NE aren't selective for which receptors they activate [ie they activate both]).

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cytrix

[quote]Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy


Nice one. And you're liking NHE thus far?

Yes, I love it, and everything he says in his book makes complete sense.

Where did you get that formula?

They sell it in health food stores in the US, you might get it via internet.

Maybe i'm being dumb here, but isn't 0.2mg per lb of bw at a bodyweight of 180lbs 36mg?

180 x 0.2 = 36.

That sounds like a helluva lot to start off with. I'd say play it by ear and see how it effects you. Start with 1-2 tabs a day and go from there. Rememeber, orals get distributed systematically so give it a good few hours before deciding you need another tab (or else you'll really kick up your CNS).

Oops - I meant 0.2 mg per KILOGRAM of body weight, sorry

cytrix

TCD, so what do you recommend I should do, use both, EC and Y, just not at the same time? Also, do you have to do cardio for the y to work? Sorry for buggin' you, but you really know this stuff

Yanick

I'm taking an educated guess about this, seeing as i don't know too much about Yohimbine. But i think that some HIIT would be in order because basically the Y will "turn off" the a2-adrenoceptors (Lipolysis "off" switch), there by leaving the b-adrenoceptors (Lipolysis "on" switch) available for the Epinephrine and Nor-epinephrine to bind to. So you if you do some strenuous exercise like weight training or HIIT you're body will release the catecholamines which should give you a helluva a lot of fat burning. However, i'm not sure if Y also promotes the synthesis/release of the catecholamines, if it does, then i'm guessing that the activity is not required but might help. Remember also that this is dangerous stuff. You need to make sure that you can handle it. Because like TCD said, you can die if you overload your heart (with potent stimulant such as Y and high intensity cardio).

"The greatest obstacle to knowledge is not ignorance but the illusion of knowledge." -Barry Marshall, Nobel Laureate

Robboe

Good post.

Cardio isn't necessary at all, no. But it can be beneficial.

Best see how the Y effects you before you go raises your HR and BP even further via cardio.

From what i can gather, YC is an ok combination, and EC is an ok combination, just avoid EY.

But still, before you combine the C and Y, see how the Y alone effects you.

(p.s. per kg of bodyweight sounds more reasonable, but still is maybe a large dose to suddenyl jump into).

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cytrix

Please bare with me, I 'm still not getting the whole picture .
Y will not stimulate the b-receptors at all, because it's a-receptor specific. But it does increase catecholamin levels directly as well as indirectly because all has to go to the b-receptors thus inducing lipolysis, since the a-receptors are blocked by the Y. But it's the catecholamines that are the b-receptor stimulators, so, does that mean that Y is also a b-receptor stimulator then, just like ephedrine ??? And that's why E & Y are too much of a "good" thing taking together? If this is correct, is the effect of Y on the b-receptors as strong as the EC stack alone would be (just that the EC stack also stimulates the a-receptors which reduces lipolysis on the other hand, which is what's not good about this stack)?
I am sorry guys, please explain to me if and where i am wrong. Thanx sooooooo much!

cytrix

One more thing, if I take just the YC, is it better to take it 2twice a day if tolerable? How long does one dose last to work in the body?

I heard that acid is needed for proper absorbtion of Y, some people eat a little meat with it, what else would do the job, maybe just a little vinegar?

Yanick

Y does is an a2-adrenoceptor antagonist. Meaning that it will "block" the a2-adrenoceptors. Meaning that the catecholamines (epinephrine and nor-epinephrine) will not be able to bind with the a2-adrenoceptors and "turn off" lipolysis.

Yes, i'm pretty sure that it, the Y, stimulates the synthesis and release of the catecholamines, by the adrenal glands. You have to look at it like this. You have 2 types of buttons on the wall, On's and Off's (These are the adrenoceptors). And you have a bunch of balls that you are able to throw (these are the Catecholamines). You throw the balls into random places on the wall when you get excited(this is the Y doing its job or the HIIT or plain ole resistance training). The Y will also put a force-field around the Off buttons and the balls will not be able to hit those switches leaving only the "on" switches to be hit.

There is also a feed-back loop between the catecholamine transporters and the a2-adrenoceptors. Meaning that when the a2-adrenoceptors are stimulated the catecholamines are taken "sucked up" (for lack of a better word) from the synaptic cleft and transported elsewhere, effectively halting lypolysis.

No the Y, only "blocks" the a2 adrenoceptors. See my analogy on top. Hopefully i made it clear enough to understand.

The E and Y are both stimulants, meaning they increase heart rate, blood pressure etc. After a certain point your body just can't keep up the high BP/HR and you die.

I'm not sure of the potency of the EC compared to the Y. But i don't think that the EC stacks stimulate any of the receptors, they only stimulate the adrenal glands and make them sythesize and release the catecholamines.


I think its somewhere around 4-6 hours. Not too sure about this though.

I tried my best to explain this, maybe when TCD gets here he can clear up some more stuff.

"The greatest obstacle to knowledge is not ignorance but the illusion of knowledge." -Barry Marshall, Nobel Laureate

Robboe

Again, good stuff. Not much for me to add really.

Also, Y is an MAO inhibitor (MAO is what metabolises the catecholmines from the synaptic cleft [COMT does this also but in a much minor role]) so inhibiting MAO = NE stays active in synaptic cleft leading to 'overstimulation'.


Right, EC works indirectly. E is thermogenic, caf is midly thermogenic, serving more as a fat mobiliser.

I dunno any exact numbers or the actual half life for certain, but this seems maybe right. I'm not sure why, but i've got it in my head right now that Y ony works for 15 minutes. Fuck knows where that's come from or if it's correct.


Here's an easy breakdown:

1. catecholmines (norepinephrine and epinephrine) are thermogenic, but don't have a preference for which receptors they activate.

2. At lower levels, they activate a-receptors (bad), past a certain threshold they activate b-receptors (good).

3. EC in the right amounts stimulate the release of E and NE past this threshold.

4. This induces lypolysis, but the a-receptors are always trying to inhibit these actions (survival mechanism from when famines were regular).

5. Y inhibits only a-2, thus nulling this 'anti-lipolytic' effect and allowing b-receptors to stimulate lipolysis and increase blood flow.

6. Y also inhibits MAO, meaning too much NE and E stay in the syneptic cleft and cause too much stimulation, which can be fatal.

7. Thus, YC is ok, but EY is pushing it a bit. Only you will know yourself how far you can push it.

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Robboe

Is that easier to understand?

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Yanick

TCD that breakdown just cleared up some questions i had regarding all this. Thanks for saving me the time, now i don't have to go reading a bunch of papers to clear up some minor points.

"The greatest obstacle to knowledge is not ignorance but the illusion of knowledge." -Barry Marshall, Nobel Laureate

Robboe

Good good.

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Robboe

Oh, by the way, some of you may have heard of the NYC stack (Norephedrine, yohimbine and caffeiene).

The reason it's ok to take norephedrine and yohimbine together, is cause norephedrine isn't actually thermogenic in humans. In rats, sure, but not humans. Great appettite suppressant though, from what i can gather.

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Dr. Pain

PPA has been banned in the US from manufacture, but is still available in places for sale only


DP

cytrix

Thanx sooo much Yanick and TCD - you really put a lot of effort into explaining this to me, I really appreciate it!! I just want to make sure about one little thing, please besides bocking a-receptors Yohimbe does increase catecholamine (as does ephedrine) right?

Robboe

Well, the reason you can't take too much Y is cause of CNS overstimulation, which i imagine it does via E and NE, so i'd say yes.

Ephedrine does, yes.

I'm not sure which is stronger though.

I'd guess ephedrine.

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Robboe

hey, something i may have missed or forgot to mention in this thread:

I just noticed Yannick mentioned it, kinda.

catecholmines activate a-2 at lower levels.

Activation of a-2 halts catecholmine release (thus acting as it's own negative feedback loop), so lipolysis is always nulled or shut off at resting (ie most of the day).

Y 'short curcuits' this loop.

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cytrix

I tried 16 mg Y with 12 oz coffee (about 200 mg caffeine) this morning, and I felt fine - it's been 5 hours now since I took it. I thought the coffee would increase catecholamines in addition to the Y and the acidity would help the absorbtion of the yohimbine. I also took my vit c with it for a little extra acidity.

Do you think then, that it would be a much better choice for everyone to take Y or YC instead of EC? I mean, the a-receptor blockage is sooo important to keep lipolysis going, and you still get an output of catecholamines through the Y and C.

Robboe

a-receptor inhibition is importnant, but it's not gonna be the be-all end-all of fat loss.

If YC works well, then use it. If not, don't.

It's gonna effect other people differently.

Now my question to you, did you eat near the time you took it? If so, what did you eat?

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cytrix

This morning I took it on an empty stomach with the coffee (1 tbl. heavy cream added), then I had a protein shake made with only milk & egg white protein and 2 tbl. heavy cream and 2 whole eggs. Then I had another dose 2 hours after lunch, which consisted of salad (lettuce, cucumber, red peppers, red cabbage), ranch dressing (1 g carbs), chicken breast and cheddar cheese. I guess you are asking, because Y works only if your blood sugar is low, while eating very low carb, because insulin interferes with Y actions. Moreover, it leads to excessive insulin output.

Questions: 1.Is it ok, if you still have some food in your stomach, like from my salad, as long as it's no carbs?

2. What do you think about the necessity of having a somewhat acid environment for upmost absorbtion of Y. Is the coffee and 1 g Vit, C sufficient acid?

3. I suppose you have to cycle Y because the body probably gets used to it just as with the EC stack, at least regarding the catecholamin output of Y. Will the blocking action of a-receptors diminish with time? How long can you use it to get the full benefit?

Robboe

Well, except for first thing in the morning the chance of you having a totally empty stomch is slim to none, so just go with it. Try and take your doses inbetween meals though ie. if you eat once at 7am and then again at 10am, take the Y at 8:30am. I'm not sure whether this will make that much of a difference, but if you're not feeling anything yet, then go for it.

I've never heard about it. Where did you read that?

But anyway, the stomach is much more acidic than coffee and vitamin C, so i'm not quite sure what you're trying to achieve with that...

Actually, from what i'm reading from Lyle Mcdonald, Ephedrine doesn't actually diminish with time, infact, possibly getting more thermogenic. I've not seen an abstract or any studies yet though, so don't take that as fact.

Other than that, i'm not sure whether the body builds some kind of tolerance to Y or Y has less effectiveness in time. I'll try and find out for you though.

How long are you planning on cutting for anyway?

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cytrix

I only want to loose those stubborn last pounds. I am at 17.5 % Bodyfat right now, I'm not sure how long it will take me with the Y, maybe 3-4 weeks.
About the acidity, I read it in an article by Elzi Volks I believe.
Also, i just found the article I couldn't find before, which spoke against Ephedrin, as it lowers norepinephrine. It was by you actually, called "cardio program for stubborn fat" a couple weeks ago. Should I start doing that on my non-lifting days? I haven't been doing any cardio lately, but I guess I should, to speed things up more?