Thread: Wanna grow...EAT MORE PROTEIN!

Gopro, I'm a little confused.

I keep hearing about guys losing weight on low Carb diets. This had lead me to believe that I need them as much as I need my protein in order to grow.

Should I just forget about it and focus on getting my protein intake up and through the roof? (175 lbs now.. 200g of protein daily).

on the opposite side how low can you realy get away with. Iam cutting and iam at 1g per ound of body weight and gaining weight. I cant go any lower on the carbs iam only at 50g a day (veggies veggies veggies and fiber one). Fat is at 40g a day.

I used to believe the same thing. Here is a quote from a conversation I had from Lyle McDonald.

"Well, companies which sell protein ahve a vested interest in pushing super high protein. And if you're drugged, you can certainly use more protein
(up to 2 g/lb).

But there's good data from a guy named Stock in both animals and humans showing that protein levels that are too high or too low leads to a severe wasteage of energy and impaired growth. He found optimal growth to occur at midline protein levels. Basically, the body burns off more calories via heat wasteage under those conditions. Which is great if fat loss is the goal (or avoiding fat gain is the goal), but not so great for muscle gains (because energy that could go towards muscle growth gets wasted). You also see drastic increases in amino acid oxidation when protein gets above a certain level. More, above a certain point, isn't beneficial and may be detrimental."

It also turns out the super high protein intakes Beverly International uses doesnt spare muscle any more and their bodybuilders still lose a substantial amt. of muscle when dieting naturally.

2g is pretty standard for alot of bodybuilders, 3g is where it starts getting insane - but even for me 2g would be ALOT, because to keep ratios inline, my caloric intake would make me FAT!

So, with that in mind I'm not sure how most of us would jump to 2g per pound diets without lots of cardio or much more active lifestyles than myself, or so called "hard gainers" who need to eat tons to gain any weight.

I am at about 1.3g per pound of total bodyweight right now, and am holding a steady bodyweight while trying to slowly lower my bodyfat.

Originally posted by pete69
I used to believe the same thing. Here is a quote from a conversation I had from Lyle McDonald.

"Well, companies which sell protein ahve a vested interest in pushing super high protein. And if you're drugged, you can certainly use more protein
(up to 2 g/lb).

But there's good data from a guy named Stock in both animals and humans showing that protein levels that are too high or too low leads to a severe wasteage of energy and impaired growth. He found optimal growth to occur at midline protein levels. Basically, the body burns off more calories via heat wasteage under those conditions. Which is great if fat loss is the goal (or avoiding fat gain is the goal), but not so great for muscle gains (because energy that could go towards muscle growth gets wasted). You also see drastic increases in amino acid oxidation when protein gets above a certain level. More, above a certain point, isn't beneficial and may be detrimental."

It also turns out the super high protein intakes Beverly International uses doesnt spare muscle any more and their bodybuilders still lose a substantial amt. of muscle when dieting naturally.

I agree with this.

Unless your using AS there is no need for a insanley high protein intake like 2 grams per body weight.

Not only is it expensive but it won't be used properly.

just to keep in mind an excess of any of the organic molecules excluding ribonucliec acids can be stored as fat. For referrence refer to a diagram of the creb cycle

I agree with GoPro. I have increase my protein to 3gm per bodyweight and and lowered my carbs. My calroies have stay almost the same and have picked up 6 lbs in 2 1/2 weeks. Strenght is through the roof along with recovery.

Tazman, are u taking steroids?

Regardless, did the scale actually go up 6 lbs., or did your body compsition change (fat loss, muscle gained) that makes it look like 6 lbs. gained.

Well, I dont think you've been keeping good track of calories b/c it would take quite a large increase to gain 6lbs. in 2 weeks, especially w/ lower carbs. Perhaps you werent gaining as much b/c you were underestimating calories by a lot. Studies show that when subjects are asked to log their food intake over several days there is as much as a 50% error, this applies to overweight recording their diet to lose, and underweight overestimating what they eat to gain.

One thing that can't be broken is the laws of thermodynamics and just as the calorie balance equation applies to weight loss it also applies to weight gain.

Settle down pete69. My deit is a plan deit from an expert on nutrition. That tracks everything I do and gives me a print out on each meal. And about the steriods. Don't ever insult me like that! And if you don't beleive me all I can say is hold the cup!

settle down guys, remember, we're here to learn , not sling mud at each other.

it wasnt intended as an insult at all, sorry if u took it that way. I dont use anything either but u must know steroid use is very common in bodybuilding.

My only point is 6 actual lbs. of muscle gain on the scale requires more calories, just eating more protein in place of carbs and keeping calories constant wont automatically put lbs. of muscle on your body, unless you up calories and were eating very little protein to begin with.

And any expert on nutrition that reccommends 3g protein for lb. of bodyweight is NOT an expert on nutrition, except for perhaps steroid users b/c this is overkill. They obviously aren't up to date on any recent research on the subject or they'd realize too much can inhibit muscle growth.

I think 3 grams is excessive.

Originally posted by gopro
Formula for instant growth for hard training bodybuilder...up your protein to 2 grams per lb of bodyweight! Can't eat that much? Than drink it! Afraid you'll get fat? Lower your carbs a bit and add some flax oil to your diet.

Now go chew some meat!

I'm in TOTAL agreement with this! The posts following seem to get a little off track....so here is my opinion, and "opinion" only!

First, IGNORE SCIENCE, yes.....they, the scientific community just figured out that Testosterone works in 1996 (See NEMJ July, the commentary is hilarious) The "Food Pyramid" blows Big Time, Registered Dieticians and Cinical Nutritionalists (most overweight and over fat themselves) are spewing archaic and incorrect information! I could go on and on!

LOOK, at "what works", what works in the BB community and what works for you! I could end this right here!

EMPIRICAL results, "tried and true" results...all suggest MORE PROTEIN! Studies on Nitrogen Balance with Russian and Bulgarian weightlifters show this too!

Here is where we are missing the point, again IMHO. First, a person's metabolic needs MUST be met or protein will be used for this purpose (hepatic gluconeogenesis). Do this with Carbohydrates..and a faster metabolism becomes "thermic" and requires more and more calories in the form of Carbs to meet this need! A slower and/or insulin resistant metabolism is going to use the Carbs for Lipogeneis, and depending on caloric levels, the extra fat and protein also.

Now, take GP's suggestion of adding some fat, and lowering carbohydrates, while raising Protein levels......and depending on the individual, insulin is supressed, fat is oxidized as fuel for metabiolic needs....and the extra protein is spared for LBM repair and synthesis! Carbs become less important.

So look at Macronutrients differently, If I get to much protein as a fat oxidizer, in low insulin space (versus hyperinsulinemia)....and I run out of dietary fat, then my body has a choice to recruit FFAs (lipolysis) or convert Protein for metabolic needs...my EXTRA PROTEIN is not WASTED.......it is used.

Without that protein, and the frequency of it's ingestion, not only do I compromise tissue repair.....butt, 24-36 hours after I have sufficiently Stressed (Trained) my body, when it is ready for ADAPTION (Growth)........if I do not have a circulating supply of amino acids in my body, I HAVE JUST WASTED THAT W/O...same would hold true for an insufficient supply of aminos (Protein).

For me, growth occurs at 1.75 to 2 grams per pound of BW. I have to up my fat to 20 grams per meal, sometimes 25...and almost never ingest more that 120-150 grams of Carbohydrates daily! (that is while bulking)

While I'm not my biggest, I used to bulk into the 230s (5'8-9"), but at higher BF%. I just finished my bulk, my pictures are available in Mama's Boy's Journal for "sarcastic reasons", but take into account that I'm older, and notice that your BF does not have to "get away" from you to bulk!


GP is correct IMHO!


DP

Originally posted by Dr. Pain


First, IGNORE SCIENCE, yes.....they, the scientific community just figured out that Testosterone works in 1996 (See NEMJ July, the commentary is hilarious)

I remember this, they kept on saying that there was no proof that steroids do anything for you, but you still can't use them in the Olympics...

Thank you Dr Pain for adding some more info to my simple post. Sometimes science can be really helpful, but it is what happens in the real world that tells the TRUE STORY.

I'm not going to go off on a long explanation here. In fact, DP did a fantastic job of explaining things. I do agree that there is a "roof" on protein intake, just like anything else, but 2 grams per lb of bodywieght is NOT excessive for hard training lifters...no, not for naturals either. Raising your protein, lowering your carbs (carbs are not essential nutrients...proteins and fats are), and increasing your EFA intake is only going to result in favorable body composition changes for almost EVERYONE (I say almost b/c there are exceptions to EVERY rule).

I don't say this because it is what worked for me...I say this because I have watched it work in dozens of my clients over and over. Not to mention that some of our most brilliant thinkers in the world of BBing agree with me and DP, but that is another story.

Look, my life revolves around training clients to look and feel better and preparing athletes, bodybuilders, and fitness competitors for competitions. Being successful at it is what pays my rent.

My post was meant to help. Whether you choose to follow my advice is out of my hands.

depending on the individual

remember, we are not created as equals. personally i have taken up to 2.5 grams and up to 3 grams, but only for a short period of time and depending on my l bdy wt.. but i also agree with w8, there is over kill. you have to monitor your l bdy wt as well as your progress in the gym. this is a science and everything counts. i prefer to cycle my intake protien.GP and DP and w8 great input on a subject that is very debatable.

GP/DP, are we talking 2g per pound of LEAN mass or total bodyweight?

I'll give it a shot and see what happens

I'd raise it gradually, drink enough water also. If say you are at 1 gram per pound of BW (total)....go to 1.25 for a few days to a week, then 1.5, 1.75, ect!


I only raise mine as I tweak bulking or cutting!

For me, maintenance is usually 1.5 G/#


DP

LBM or total bodyweight?

Originally posted by Dr. Pain
I'd raise it gradually, drink enough water also. If say you are at 1 gram per pound of BW (total)....go to 1.25 for a few days to a week, then 1.5, 1.75, ect!


I only raise mine as I tweak bulking or cutting!

For me, maintenance is usually 1.5 G/#


DP

In this case grams!

Total BW!

DP

Awesome, thanks. I'm about 1.35g/pound right now.

I'd go to 1.6! Drink more water


DP

I have been using GP theories combined with the article on the home page and have been making incredible progression. I was 202 3 weeks ago I'm now 212 and body composition is just about the same. I know it more likely glycogen increase, but my waist was not changed and my bicpes are getting bigger so that is the determining factor I use to see what excatly I'm gaining. I'm getting to go into a harden phase for 2 weeks then I'm going to jack my caloires to 3600,then 3800, 4000 increasing each week and keep cardio at HIT for 2 days a week then I will repeat the process. AND NO I"M NOT ON ROIDS !! Just BCAAS, Liver tabs, and ECA stacke and all natural food and flax seed oil, lcarnitine, and CLA. My diet is listed on here some of you ma want want to examin it becuase GP advice is very back by real world results not SCientific bull shit studies where to many variables can affect the out come!!

LOL I wish it where that easy for me. I gues every one else had a decent metabolism. hell I can bulk on 1600 cals a day. I agrea though a amount of protein does result in good gains. Hell I don think we ever go wrong with a few extra amino acids.

Originally posted by hardasnails1973
I have been using GP theories combined with the article on the home page and have been making incredible progression. I was 202 3 weeks ago I'm now 212 and body composition is just about the same. I know it more likely glycogen increase, but my waist was not changed and my bicpes are getting bigger so that is the determining factor I use to see what excatly I'm gaining. I'm getting to go into a harden phase for 2 weeks then I'm going to jack my caloires to 3600,then 3800, 4000 increasing each week and keep cardio at HIT for 2 days a week then I will repeat the process. AND NO I"M NOT ON ROIDS !! Just BCAAS, Liver tabs, and ECA stacke and all natural food and flax seed oil, lcarnitine, and CLA. My diet is listed on here some of you ma want want to examin it becuase GP advice is very back by real world results not SCientific bull shit studies where to many variables can affect the out come!!

Thanks for the post HAN...I'm glad my "theories" have been working so well for you! And thanks for the nice comments. Keep going, keep growing

ACtually GP I also have to give some credit to also DP as well for nutritonal threads about the carb up and manipulatoin of how to use thermogenic as food, ect and insulin. SO you can concider my results a team effort

I hate to sound like an ass, but could some one explain scientificaly the baisis for the further increase in protein. As i understood it, it doesnt matter what you take in over maintence your body stores it as fat. So by taking in more protein you are essentialy just taking in more cals and providing more amino acids.