Low carbs with Refeeds

**FMJ** · 02-22-2010, 04:33 PM

Been on this diet for the last 2 weeks. Basically 1800 calories a day for 5 days, low carb, high protein, then a refeed day or two at around 3600 calories of high carbs, then repeat. I started at 164 pound, I'm not losing any weight though. I gained 2 pounds after my refeeds but I read that those carb ups make you retain water for a couple days which seems to have been true because I'm back down to 164.
I'm trying to remain optimistic, I know 2 weeks isn't long but I'm on serious carb restriction and haven't lost any weight.
How should I approach this going forward? Do I give it another couple weeks as is or do I need to make adjustments?
Macros in grams are: 75c, 60f and 248p on low carb days and 660c, 40f and 165p on refeed days.

kyoun1e · 02-22-2010, 05:00 PM

My first question would be, are you in need of a diet break? If not, I'd suggest two things:

First on diet, suck it up and drop calories from 1800 to 1500. And get carbs to around 50ish.

On training, add a glycogen depletion workout early in the week. This is a high volume / high rep / little rest between sets situation. This will create a greater calorie burn and also increase fat oxidation.

An example workout would have you work the entire body and do 3-4 sets each, 15-20 reps:

* Machine Press
* Cable Rows
* Machine Incline Bench or Shoulder Press
* Lat Pulldowns
* Laterals
* Bis
* Leg Press
* Leg Curl
* Leg Extensions
* Calves

Goal would be to hit a "time under tension" for your 15-20 reps of 45 seconds. Your rest time between sets would be no more than a minute.

This is a KILLER type of workout and you will be wiped. But it will get things rolling that's for sure.

KY

**danzik17** · 02-22-2010, 06:47 PM

What kind of training are you doing?

Is your body fat really low enough that you need a refeed every week? Your protein might be too high as well. It's good to get between 1-1.5g protein per LB/LBM, but past that (like anything else) they're just extra un-needed calories.

**FMJ** · 02-22-2010, 06:53 PM

Hey KY. Hows the shoulder?

I dunno what you mean about needing a diet break. Explain?
I don't think I do.. I've only been cutting for about 4 weeks. Low carbing for 2 of those.
You think I should lower the carbs even though it's only been a couple weeks?

**FMJ** · 02-22-2010, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danzik17

What kind of training are you doing?

Is your body fat really low enough that you need a refeed every week? Your protein might be too high as well. It's good to get between 1-1.5g protein per LB/LBM, but past that (like anything else) they're just extra un-needed calories.

Hey Danzik,
I'm not over 1.5 protein on my regular low carb days, Bodyfat is probably between 16-18%. As for what I'm doing for training. It's all here--> Full Metal Jacket
From what I've read on doing refeeds, it wasn't specific about being a certain bodyfat percentage to determining how or when to refeed. What do you suggest?

kyoun1e · 02-22-2010, 07:54 PM

What's your maintenance level calories again? 2500ish?

Those deficit days are creating a 3500 calorie deficit (700 x 5). On the other hand, two refeed days of 3600 is creating a surplus of 2200. The net is a weekly deficit of 1200. Not that much. At this rate you're losing 1 lb of fat every three weeks (unless my math is wrong here).

If the above is correct, I'd trim down those refeeds to 3000. That's another 1200 calories right there. And if you ratchet down the cals on deficit days you could create another 1k sink as well.

You could just adjust in that way.

And then try a depletion workout as well.

KY

P.S. Shoulder "ok" I guess. I'm back in the gym.

**FMJ** · 02-22-2010, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyoun1e

What's your maintenance level calories again? 2500ish?

Those deficit days are creating a 3500 calorie deficit (700 x 5). On the other hand, two refeed days of 3600 is creating a surplus of 2200. The net is a weekly deficit of 1200. Not that much. At this rate you're losing 1 lb of fat every three weeks (unless my math is wrong here).

If the above is correct, I'd trim down those refeeds to 3000. That's another 1200 calories right there. And if you ratchet down the cals on deficit days you could create another 1k sink as well.

You could just adjust in that way.

And then try a depletion workout as well.

KY

P.S. Shoulder "ok" I guess. I'm back in the gym.

Yep, you got it about right. 2700 calories maint actually, but those high calorie refeeds might be doing me in. The first week I only did one refeed of 3600.. then last week I added a second one. I'll play with the numbers and try to get at least a 3500 calorie deficit at the end of a week. Maybe that'll get the scale moving again. Thanks KY. Always appreciate your help.

**Built** · 02-22-2010, 08:24 PM

kyoun1e totally nailed it - on both counts. The depletion workout is a great idea to kick start your week, and your refeeds are too long and too big for the modest deficit you're running during the week.

I love it when I drop into a thread and find I have nothing to add.

<sniff!>

They grow up so fast!

Phineas · 02-22-2010, 08:56 PM

I thought on cuts you normally drop no more than 500 calories below maintenance? Wouldn't this drop weight too fast for optimal muscle retention? Also, 75g carbs is pretty god damn low. Bear in mind, carbs are needed for more than workout fuel. My brain can't function properly if I go lower than 100g.

**Built** · 02-22-2010, 09:41 PM

You don't need to limit the deficit to 500 calories. And I can assure you, your brain would learn to live on ketone bodies. 75g of carb isn't particularly low.

**danzik17** · 02-22-2010, 09:47 PM

Seconded. You'll feel like shit the first 2-3 times you start using ketones, but it goes away. I can shift between without even noticing at this point.

Muscle retention is more about getting in adequate protein and keeping the weight on the bar than it is about too much of a calorie drop. Drop volume if need be, just keep the weight on the bar.

**theCaptn'** · 02-23-2010, 12:22 AM

sounds like you're on a similar programme to the Ultimate Diet II, which I have just started.

according to the programme, you should be doing a depletion WO day 1 + 2, rest day 3, then a tension training day 4, followed by commencement of refeed immediately after. Day 6 should involve Power training, tapering off the refeed.

Im in day 2 . . P 250 C 60 F 40 . . low carbs suck

kyoun1e · 02-23-2010, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

<sniff!>

They grow up so fast!

Ha ha.

A couple successful UD2 runs, some results, and advice from you and maybe I know enough to be dangerous.

KY

**FMJ** · 02-23-2010, 08:16 AM

Okay, so I'm really missing a couple elements here. I'll need to add a depletion day. That will be in addition to my regular days though, right? I don't have to switchup anything on the other days as far as volume, rep ranges, etc. The depletion day on the other hand would be a lower weight, higher reps and little if any rest. Correct?
I can easily get down to 50 grams of carbs. As for the refeeds, it was my understanding that you had to eat 25-50% over your maintainence but I can go down to 3000 easily as well. The diet I will adjust today, the depletion workout I will throw in next week. I currently do a Tues. Thurs and Sat. Mondays are tough to fit anything in. I'm assuming the depletion should be followed up by a regular training day the very next day?
Ideally for my schedule, I could do the depletion on Sunday, then do a Tue. Thurs. Sat. Will that still be effective taking a day off after the depletion?

**DaMayor** · 02-23-2010, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

You don't need to limit the deficit to 500 calories. And I can assure you, your brain would learn to live on ketone bodies. 75g of carb isn't particularly low.

75g? Man, that's nothing. I've lived off of zero carbs for extended periods of t iMe aN2 My breen..brun...bran..fiber fiber...BRAIN 1z jooooooishhhhhhhh fin.....e,ppppppppedj-=

Built's right...75 isn't extremely low.

**FMJ** · 02-23-2010, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaMayor

75g? Man, that's nothing. I've lived off of zero carbs for extended periods of t iMe aN2 My breen..brun...bran..fiber fiber...BRAIN 1z jooooooishhhhhhhh fin.....e,ppppppppedj-=

Built's right...75 isn't extremely low.

Something wrong with your formatting buttons?!?
Looks like someone with parkinsons type this.

kyoun1e · 02-23-2010, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FMJ

Okay, so I'm really missing a couple elements here. I'll need to add a depletion day. That will be in addition to my regular days though, right? I don't have to switchup anything on the other days as far as volume, rep ranges, etc. The depletion day on the other hand would be a lower weight, higher reps and little if any rest. Correct?

I'm assuming the depletion should be followed up by a regular training day the very next day?
Ideally for my schedule, I could do the depletion on Sunday, then do a Tue. Thurs. Sat. Will that still be effective taking a day off after the depletion?

I'd just replace one of your heavy workouts at the beginning of the week with a depletion workout. Then, get right back on schedule.

The key for depletion is:

* Use a weight where you can get 15-20 reps. This is usually around 50% of your 1RM. I usually don't get hung up on how much weight I'm using. This workout can really "hurt your lifting ego."
* During those reps, you need to have a "time under tension" of between 45-60 seconds. So it's more of a slower, deliberate movement.
* 30-60 second rest between sets.

Don't be surprised if you want to puke, get dizzy. This is a brutal workout. Your low volume/heavy days will feel like a vacation after this. And I would NOT advise you lift heavy the next day. You will not want to if you did this workout correctly.

(And what you're doing is actually only about half of what you need to do to deplete for UD2...you're getting off easy).

KY

**FMJ** · 02-23-2010, 03:30 PM

Alrighty. I will make the adjustments and hopefully, I will have some good news in a couple weeks.
Thanks everyone... Except DaMayor who just typed gibberish!

Phineas · 02-23-2010, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

You don't need to limit the deficit to 500 calories. And I can assure you, your brain would learn to live on ketone bodies. 75g of carb isn't particularly low.

I always thought a cutting diet should be done at a modest pace. If your bulking calories are 3500 and your cutting calories are 1800 that's such a drastic change. That would have you dropping several pounds of week. Even with a lot of protein, isn't this conducive to muscle loss? I figured this is why people give themselves such a long time to cut. I'm going for my first cut in early June after nearly 2 years of bulking since I started BBing, and I was planning on giving myself all of June and July (2 months).

I read on here once from I believe it was cowpimp that lower than 150g is low-carb. If you consider a bulking diet with 350-450g daily, I think 200-300 drop is very drastic (that's 800-1200 calories less right there). We still need energy for those low volume, high intensity workouts.

Maybe I should do more reading on ketosis. I've only just learned about it within the last few weeks.

I have 3.3 months left until my first cut. I guess I better start stocking up on the reading now

**FMJ** · 02-23-2010, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phineas

I always thought a cutting diet should be done at a modest pace. If your bulking calories are 3500 and your cutting calories are 1800 that's such a drastic change. That would have you dropping several pounds of week. Even with a lot of protein, isn't this conducive to muscle loss? I figured this is why people give themselves such a long time to cut. I'm going for my first cut in early June after nearly 2 years of bulking since I started BBing, and I was planning on giving myself all of June and July (2 months).

I read on here once from I believe it was cowpimp that lower than 150g is low-carb. If you consider a bulking diet with 350-450g daily, I think 200-300 drop is very drastic (that's 800-1200 calories less right there). We still need energy for those low volume, high intensity workouts.

Maybe I should do more reading on ketosis. I've only just learned about it within the last few weeks.

I have 3.3 months left until my first cut. I guess I better start stocking up on the reading now

Here, check this out. This is what got me to try it.
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/di...ds-leptin.html (Refeeds and Leptin)

Phineas · 02-23-2010, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FMJ

Here, check this out. This is what got me to try it.
http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/di...ds-leptin.html (Refeeds and Leptin)

No, I know about refeeds and leptin. I've been experimenting with carb cycling myself, with nice results.

I know those are done when cutting and on low carbs. What I'm asking about is ketosis, the state of carb deprivation (i.e. the chemicals released in the body.."ketones"...what do they do?). From reading I've done it seems ideal to not go too far into ketosis, which is why I feel 75 or lower is odd. I figured 100-150g a day is fine. As long as your overall calories are in a deficit, and the other nutrients are where they need to be, I don't understand why one would go into such a drastic deficit of such an important nutrient. How would you have any energy to perform the high intensity workouts? I do low carb on off days, but I aim for more like 100-150, which is 200-250 less than on training days. I get moody and I just don't have the same kind of energy.

I'm not arguing against everyone. Clearly, I'm wrong. I just want the scientific explanation for how such a drastic drop in carbs will not put the body in a severely imbalanced state and lose more than fat.

**FMJ** · 02-23-2010, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phineas

No, I know about refeeds and leptin. I've been experimenting with carb cycling myself, with nice results.

I know those are done when cutting and on low carbs. What I'm asking about is ketosis, the state of carb deprivation (i.e. the chemicals released in the body.."ketones"...what do they do?). From reading I've done it seems ideal to not go too far into ketosis, which is why I feel 75 or lower is odd. I figured 100-150g a day is fine. As long as your overall calories are in a deficit, and the other nutrients are where they need to be, I don't understand why one would go into such a drastic deficit of such an important nutrient. How would you have any energy to perform the high intensity workouts? I do low carb on off days, but I aim for more like 100-150, which is 200-250 less than on training days. I get moody and I just don't have the same kind of energy.

I'm not arguing against everyone. Clearly, I'm wrong. I just want the scientific explanation for how such a drastic drop in carbs will not put the body in a severely imbalanced state and lose more than fat.

I believe the super low carbs are from the UD2 diet advocated by Dr. Lyle McDonald. He has an E-book available. I'm probably going to buy it soon too.

Phineas · 02-23-2010, 04:14 PM

I searched the board for ketosis threads, and found this quote from cowpimp:

"I've still yet to see one solid reason why the Atkins diet is a good idea. There is nothing you can't achieve with a healthy and balanced diet except diarrhea.

I can understand moderating carbohydrate intake (Which I still don't think is necessary for as many people as some suggest), but dropping it to virtually nothing doesn't make sense to me. Your brain needs glucose. In the absence of glucose your body will use fatty acid metabolites (Ketone bodies) to feed the brain. Well, unfortunately these ketone bodies turn your blood pH to shit, which the body doesn't like. It fights desperately to maintain a very narrow range (I believe it's 7.35-45) for optimal functioning of the cardiovascular system and various metabolic processes.

So let's see... starve the brain, send yourself into a state of acidosis, cut out lots of nutritious food items from your diet, leave yourself feeling like shit, load up on excess animal products, increase the risk of degrading the proteins of skeletal muscle, and achieve nothing you couldn't with a more balanced diet. Sounds like a good idea... if you're George Bush. "

This is my concern with ultra low carbs. I tried doing less than 50-70g one day and my brain stopped working. It needs glucose.

I understand that refeeds are intended to counter your body's negative nitrogen balanced-induced starvation and bring leptin levels back up so that you brain "thinks" it's not in a deficit (and can thus resume fat burning soon after..), but for an essential nutrient I just can't see the justification in cutting it down SO DRASTICALLY.

Obviously, your macros will change with a drop in calories (as your protein needs to stay high, particularly....), but you still need carbs. I also imagine it must be emotionally taxing for someone who has put in all this hard work to gain muscle and is now in an already-imbalanced state (likely moodly from the drastic diet change..) to also have to watch their muscles soften, as glucose is drawn from their muscle cells to fast. I get that on a cut carbs must decrease significantly. I'm cool with that. I just can't fathom dropping 300g.

How can you possibly lose weight this fast while retaining most or all of your lean muscle?

Please, someone shoot me down and educate me! I'm not being a d-bag...I just want to learn! And, this less than 50g crap is freaking me the F out!

Phineas · 02-23-2010, 04:16 PM

Sorry, probably should have included the link to that thread I quoted....

What is Ketosis?

**FMJ** · 02-23-2010, 04:25 PM

Interestingly enough, I've been on 75 carbs for the last 2 weeks. I'm not really moody. I'm not lacking energy, although, I do fall asleep in a matter of minutes now. And contrary to what everyone told me about losing stregth while cutting, all my weights are going up pretty consistantly.
The problem I have is, I'm not really losing any weight!
In fact, I was losing faster when I was doing 2200 calories with around 200 carbs. But I am willing to keep at it a little while longer to see if I can get the results this guy got in 11 weeks.