Thread: Fat Gain Question

If you are still OVER maintenance you will not lose weight.

Losing/gaining weight ULTIMATELY boils down to one thing.

"Calories in" vs. "calories out".

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However, remember as you gain weight (fat and/or muscle) your maintenance calorie levels will increase.

So what may have maintained you a month ago, is not enough calories now.

Originally Posted by rayray715

Suppose I go 1000 cal. over maintenance on bulk. I gain good mass but also fat, then I drop 500 cal. and I am now at maintenance or still higher. Will I drop fat? or keep the fat and continue to add muscle if still over maintenance?

I'm thinking I would drop some fat if I reduce calories, but then again, if I'm still over maintenance, that couldnt be right. Some thoughts, please.

1000 calories is a pretty big surplus to create, unless you're highly active. You'll see a lot of members on the board say to not factor calories burned in exercise. I disagree with that, though I see their reason. I imagine they worry that most people will overcompensate for calories burned, and wind up eating too much. However, if you create a 500 calorie surplus, but walk 5km a day, run 5km after a workout, and train for an hour or longer you're going to easily run yourself into a minor calorie deficit, and gains won't come.

My suggestion is create a moderate surplus that partially accounts for your activity level. On training days I create a 700-1000 calorie surplus, but I (a) walk about 5km a day, (b) am following a volume program, and (c) am training for a half marathon. With the calories I burn in a training day this brings me to about a little bit over maintenance. It balances well.

However, on non-training days, where I try to rest completely, besides walking, I eat only about 100-200 calories over maintenance. Overall, this keeps my weekly surplus to only about 1200-1700, meaning it would take me about 2 weeks to gain 1 pound of fat. This is clean bulking. I track my diet, eat nothing but whole foods, and I gain muscle steadily without significant fat gain.

Now, to specifically address your question:

If you eat 1000 calories over maintenance every day, you'll theoretically gain 1 pound of fat in approximately 3.5 days (3500 calories = 1 lb fat). That's assuming no burned calories, though. Realistically, it might be more like 4.5-5 days, or whatever.

You can drop the calories on non-training days, which will level out your fat gain considerably. However, between those two days that's a pretty aggressive bulk.

The body can develop muscle only so fast. This is why it's difficult to find the perfect balance of calories in vs. calories out. With a 1000 calorie surplus you'll make fast gains, but of the weight gained it's likely that lean muscle will comprise only a small proportion.

The only way to lose this gained fat is to create a calorie deficit; in other words, to stop bulking and cut. Some people think they can just switch between bulk days and cut days, but the body doesn't function like that. The body wants to either be creating or losing, and you can't ask it to do both at the same time. Devote some time to building new tissue, then devote some time to maintain that tissue while losing the fat surrounding it.

just a tip...if you dial in your bulking diet now you won't have to worry about it later.

Originally Posted by LAM

just a tip...if you dial in your bulking diet now you won't have to worry about it later.

Agreed.

It's easy to do the common bulking diet where you eat everything in sight. I used to do that, and you know where it got me? I got good results, but it also got me to 15% BF, not terrible, but fatter than I like to be. I clean bulk now and have been gaining better than ever and maintaining a nice BF of around 10%. I also can add/subtract nutrients/calories as I see fit, and really see the effect certain amounts of nutrients has on me.

Enter your diet into fitday.com. I guarentee you, no matter how great of training programs you might use in the future, and no matter how hard you'll push yourself in the gym, tracking your diet will be the biggest milestone. You wouldn't think it, but just wait and see what happens when you do it. You'll be in complete control of your body's energy and recovery abilities.

Originally Posted by Phineas

Agreed.

It's easy to do the common bulking diet where you eat everything in sight. I used to do that, and you know where it got me? I got good results, but it also got me to 15% BF, not terrible, but fatter than I like to be. I clean bulk now and have been gaining better than ever and maintaining a nice BF of around 10%. I also can add/subtract nutrients/calories as I see fit, and really see the effect certain amounts of nutrients has on me.

Enter your diet into fitday.com. I guarentee you, no matter how great of training programs you might use in the future, and no matter how hard you'll push yourself in the gym, tracking your diet will be the biggest milestone. You wouldn't think it, but just wait and see what happens when you do it. You'll be in complete control of your body's energy and recovery abilities.

Yep, me too. Good results, but learning how to clean bulk will save you time and energy. Diet is the key.

So how do you "clean bulk"? Is it a matter of eating the right food or is it simply to keep your calories to only slightly above maintenance and remain patient?

Originally Posted by gtbmed

So how do you "clean bulk"? Is it a matter of eating the right food or is it simply to keep your calories to only slightly above maintenance and remain patient?

I'd sum up clean bulking in 3 points:

(1.) You track you diet (as opposed to just assuming and eating). You don't necessarily have to follow your diet calorie for calorie every day, but knowing more or less how many grams of each macronutrient and how many calories you're consuming takes you miles ahead of those mainstream bulkers who just eat random large portions of food.

(2.) You eat primarily or solely whole foods. Things like bars, cereals, etc are out of the question. Foods like eggs, non-processed meat, whole wheat bread/pasta, oats, veges, fish, potatoes, etc. Keep protein supplements minimal (I use no more than 1/5 daily protein from supplements: I consume 240-260g protein daily, of which 24g is supplement, never anymore)

(3.) You bulk at only a moderate calorie surplus to keep fat gain minimal. Let's say your maintenance is 3,000. A lot of people would bulk anywhere from 3,500-4,000. Also, most people keep the surplus steady day to day. A clean bulk is more precise. You might bulk on only a 300-400 calorie surplus. Also, on non-training days would account for less activity and decrease calories, to keep your overall surplus leveled out. Between training days and non-training days, the need for excess calories for muscle repair/growth, and calories burned from training and cardio I net maybe 1200-1500 calories a week -- meaning that's what's left for fat gain. So, at my clean bulk rate it would take me about 2.5-3 weeks to gain 1 lb of fat. At this rate, musclestrength gains can remain in line with fat gains, so I never exceed my desired BF, I provide the necessary resources for improvement, and it will make it significantly easier to cut down the road. Note that once men surpass a certain BF (I think typically somewhere around 17-20 in most cases) the body starts to release estrogen, which will be counterproductive to your cause.

The downside to all of this: it takes a hell of a lot of time to refine your diet and prepare daily meals to fit the diet perfectly. Learn to measure PB by the tablespoon. 1 tbs of PB is leveled off, too. 100 calories of PB is a lot less volume than you'd think. Measure olive oil by the tablespoon. Meausre milk by the cup. Meausre oats and cottage cheese by the cup. Weigh your meats after cooking, when water has evaporated. Weigh your pasta before cooking, before water has absorbed. Weight your potatoes. Weigh everything besides veges. Portion meals in advance. Buy bulk frozen chicken, devote a period of your day off to cooking several pounds, weight, portion, freeze. That way, the most timely part of your days' meal preparation is done in advance.

You have to consider diet like it's as complex of a formula as training -- which it is. The more you're on top of things with portions/macronutrients, the better your body will perform in the gym.

Don't forget that if you're taking in a good bit of carbs with those calories you can expect some water weight.

Originally Posted by Phineas

I'd sum up clean bulking in 3 points:

(1.) You track you diet (as opposed to just assuming and eating). You don't necessarily have to follow your diet calorie for calorie every day, but knowing more or less how many grams of each macronutrient and how many calories you're consuming takes you miles ahead of those mainstream bulkers who just eat random large portions of food.

(2.) You eat primarily or solely whole foods. Things like bars, cereals, etc are out of the question. Foods like eggs, non-processed meat, whole wheat bread/pasta, oats, veges, fish, potatoes, etc. Keep protein supplements minimal (I use no more than 1/5 daily protein from supplements: I consume 240-260g protein daily, of which 24g is supplement, never anymore)



(3.) You bulk at only a moderate calorie surplus to keep fat gain minimal. Let's say your maintenance is 3,000. A lot of people would bulk anywhere from 3,500-4,000. Also, most people keep the surplus steady day to day. A clean bulk is more precise. You might bulk on only a 300-400 calorie surplus. Also, on non-training days would account for less activity and decrease calories, to keep your overall surplus leveled out. Between training days and non-training days, the need for excess calories for muscle repair/growth, and calories burned from training and cardio I net maybe 1200-1500 calories a week -- meaning that's what's left for fat gain. So, at my clean bulk rate it would take me about 2.5-3 weeks to gain 1 lb of fat. At this rate, musclestrength gains can remain in line with fat gains, so I never exceed my desired BF, I provide the necessary resources for improvement, and it will make it significantly easier to cut down the road. Note that once men surpass a certain BF (I think typically somewhere around 17-20 in most cases) the body starts to release estrogen, which will be counterproductive to your cause.

The downside to all of this: it takes a hell of a lot of time to refine your diet and prepare daily meals to fit the diet perfectly. Learn to measure PB by the tablespoon. 1 tbs of PB is leveled off, too. 100 calories of PB is a lot less volume than you'd think. Measure olive oil by the tablespoon. Meausre milk by the cup. Meausre oats and cottage cheese by the cup. Weigh your meats after cooking, when water has evaporated. Weigh your pasta before cooking, before water has absorbed. Weight your potatoes. Weigh everything besides veges. Portion meals in advance. Buy bulk frozen chicken, devote a period of your day off to cooking several pounds, weight, portion, freeze. That way, the most timely part of your days' meal preparation is done in advance.

You have to consider diet like it's as complex of a formula as training -- which it is. The more you're on top of things with portions/macronutrients, the better your body will perform in the gym.

Phineas beat me to it. Takes a lot more effort to effectively clean bulk.