Thread: Another potential starvation candidate

5'10" and 178 lbs? Stop cutting. Spend the next week meticulously tracking every single thing you eat - including cheats - and run an average. Post that up and we'll take it from here.

Why so little protein?

I haven't purposely kept protein low. That is what my food choices have added up to.

Starting today I am using fitday. That may be the extra incentive I need to eat another chicken breast instead of M&Ms. I"ll post back soon.

I tracked through FitDay and re-read Built’s Homework for Newbies.

“little soft, but not truly fat”- I have some belly and face fat I was trying to lose, but it sounds like I should start building now.

Diet – tracked for last 6 days. On average, daily it is:
Calories: 1,708
g of Protein: 94
g of Carb: 195
g of Fat: 109

My guess is:
1. Increase my protein to at least 150 g per day
2. Keep my Fat to 75 per day
3. Increase my calories to 2700+
4. I'm guessing my carbs should get lower

Should I slowly bring up my calories? Or immediately bump them? The above breakdown is comparable to my consumption the last few months.

I worry about my gains being more fat than muscle. I know I will gain both, but would obviously prefer a higher ratio of muscle.

How long do people generally stay on a bulk / cut cycle?
Thanks for the help.

Protein at least 150g daily, correct.
Fat at least 75g daily. Higher is fine.
Cals at 1700 seem WAY too low. Are you maintaining on this? For how long?

I've been eating like this for the last three months - and maybe lost three pounds.
So yes, I guess it is maintenance.

I lift three times a week. I haven't seen much in terms of strength gains, but I've accepted that with the diet.

Major Built reconditioning on the way!!!!

If you've lost three pounds in three months, then maintenance is about 2000 calories a day.

How about we creep your calories up, ever so slowly, while you ramp up your training? I think you need a diet break.

Start with 1800 calories a day for a few weeks. Then go to 1900 for a few weeks, then 2000 for about a month.

Meanwhile, we increase your output because the focus is changing from weight loss to weight maintenance.

Describe your training, in detail, day by day, reps, sets, weight lifted.

Originally Posted by Built

If you've lost three pounds in three months, then maintenance is about 2000 calories a day.

How about we creep your calories up, ever so slowly, while you ramp up your training? I think you need a diet break.

Start with 1800 calories a day for a few weeks. Then go to 1900 for a few weeks, then 2000 for about a month.

Meanwhile, we increase your output because the focus is changing from weight loss to weight maintenance.

Describe your training, in detail, day by day, reps, sets, weight lifted.

SuperBuilt to the rescue!!!

Now I know I’ll get blasted – but it’s for my own good, right? Training in this order:
(Can’t remember what the curl bar weighs)

Tuesday-Back and bi’s
Chinups: 1 x 10-12 reps (bodyweight)
Cable Seated Row: 3 x 6 (180 lbs)
DB bent-over rows: 3 x 6 (65 lb)
BB Preacher curl: 3 x 4 (60 + bar)
Lever Seated High Row: 3 x 7 (90 each side) OR Cable pulldown: 3 x 6 (150)
Standing DB Curl: 2 x 6 (30 lbs)

Thursday – chest and tri’s
Flat bench: 1 x 2-3 (205); 2 x 4-6 (185)
Skull crushers: 3 x 6 (30/side plus bar)
Lever Wide grip chest press: 3 x 5 (55/side)
Cable Tricep extension-single rope: 3 x 7 (40)
Machine seated fly: 3 x 7 (100)
Cable pushdown: 3 x 6

Saturday – legs
Squats: 3 x 5 (185) – started these 2 weeks ago.
Leg press: 3 x 6 (320?) OR DB Lunges: 3 x 6 (25)
Leg extension: 3 x 7 (180)
Lying leg curl (hams): 3 x 5 (140)
Standing calf raise: 3 x 10 (210)

On off days, I might jog/walk for 20 minutes
On Tues I sometimes do 3 sets of calf raises
My right shoulder pops and is painful when I do any overhead presses (or dips, for that matter)

I have been reading about Deadlifts, so I’ll have to try them this week. Never done them before.
Thanks Built!

Too much volume Nog. Lose some of the isolation work. Really not needed. I'm training for strongman and usually only do 3-4 exercises per day, tops. You do, on the other hand have mostly compound work placed first, which is a step in the right direction.

Add deads in like this:
Tuesday-Back and bi’s
Standard Deadlifts 5x5
Chins or Barbell Rows 4x8-12
Good Mornings 3x10-12
Hammer Curls 3x8

I'd add very little arm work in there, since most of the work is predominantly hitting the bicep area indirectly.

Thanks Jugg.
I just looked up Good Mornings.
I'm looking forward to doing those (and the others you listed), and drop some isolation.

I'll be starting light until I get the form down and my hamstrings more flexible.

Originally Posted by Noghri73

Diet – tracked for last 6 days. On average, daily it is:
Calories: 1,708
g of Protein: 94
g of Carb: 195
g of Fat: 109

Protein 94g x 4 = 376 calories
Carb 195g x4 = 780 calories
Fat 109g x 9 = 981 calories
Total calories = 2137, not 1708. Somehow everyone missed this

I agree with built about creeping calories up, but don't start at 1800 if you've actually been eating 2100ish.

Phedder - thanks for noticing this! Using your cal per type I went through Fitday and realized I had the wrong "fat" in two items:
Protein shake - I had 20, instead of 2
Spec K protein bar - I had 45 instead of 4.5.

New averages:
1,708 calories
67 fat
195 carbs
94 protein.

So I need to up my fat

Originally Posted by Noghri73

Thanks Jugg.
I just looked up Good Mornings.
I'm looking forward to doing those (and the others you listed), and drop some isolation.

I'll be starting light until I get the form down and my hamstrings more flexible.

Remember, slight bend in the knees, ass out, eyes and chin follow the head.

to be technical the body will definitely go into in starvation mode when the caloric intake is less than 50% of that required by the BMR. obviously the closer a person would get to this amount the slower and slower the RMR would get and lipolysis would just about halt in any measurable amount.

not eating enough is one of the biggest problems that people have when it comes to actually reducing the body fat while preserving lean body mass/fat free mass. the 2nd is to factor in the body fat % when calculating the caloric intake, after all fat doesn't need energy it is stored energy. determine the amount of fat free mass that you have and base your caloric intake on that AND your level of daily exercise.

Originally Posted by LAM

to be technical the body will definitely go into in starvation mode when the caloric intake is less than 50% of that required by the BMR.

Sure, but after how long? In the now-famous Minnesota semistarvation experiment, men were dieted at half maintenance for six months. Fat loss continued until they reached 5% bodyfat, and their maintenance dropped by 40%. Lyle Mcdonald writes 25% can be attributed to the fact that they simply weighed less. That means their maintenance calories at the end of six months at just under 1600 calories was only off by about 15% from what one would expect for men of a given weight.

Determining the Maximum Dietary Deficit for Fat Loss | Mind and Muscle <- Complicated, but excellent read on the maximum deficit for fat loss.

Originally Posted by Built

Sure, but after how long? In the now-famous Minnesota semistarvation experiment, men were dieted at half maintenance for six months. Fat loss continued until they reached 5% bodyfat, and their maintenance dropped by 40%. Lyle Mcdonald writes 25% can be attributed to the fact that they simply weighed less. That means their maintenance calories at the end of six months at just under 1600 calories was only off by about 15% from what one would expect for men of a given weight.

Determining the Maximum Dietary Deficit for Fat Loss | Mind and Muscle <- Complicated, but excellent read on the maximum deficit for fat loss.

I'm pretty sure any study that you find that shows positive results from a very low calorie diet will have subjects that are either obese or have very high level of body fat and leptin. leptin has a regulatory effect/protein sparring on muscle catabolism.

Right... but that's not what I'm asking. You said:

Originally Posted by LAM

to be technical the body will definitely go into in starvation mode when the caloric intake is less than 50% of that required by the BMR.

I agree. But what exactly IS starvation mode, and how long does it take for the body to enter this state? Remember, ketosis is also muscle-sparing.

Originally Posted by LAM

I'm pretty sure any study that you find that shows positive results from a very low calorie diet will have subjects that are either obese or have very high level of body fat and leptin. leptin has a regulatory effect/protein sparring on muscle catabolism.

Are you talking long term or short term though?

In the long term, I'd agree that starvation diets only really work on people with high BF% levels, however in the short term they're just as effective on people with lower BF% levels. That's the entire basis behind running a PSMF (which I'm pretty damn sure qualifies as a VLCD)

starvation would be the 2nd stage and long term effect of being undernourished with the 1st being marasmus. marasmus would be a severe lack of calories and proteins in the diet over a short period of time. this would be the weight loss that typically occurs when people follow fad diets.

a person could essentially teeter on the brink of starvation for months and/or years since the overall caloric intake in terms of weeks and or months is more important than the day to day intake since the body can shift from various energy sources accordingly.

for most in industrialized counties were we have food excesses it's very hard for many to truly enter "starvation" which is actually one of many levels and types nutrient defeciencies. you can say that being in starvation would be a general term of having insufficient calories overall in the diet while being malnourished would be having either an insufficient intake of micro-nutrients or the wrong ratios of them. with the growing obesity problem in a lot of industrialized countries we could safely drawn the conclusion that a lot of these people suffer from a general over-nutrition from chronic overfeeding but are still malnourished due to the sources of the calories. most degenerative diseases can be traced back to either a long term macro-nutrient deficiency in the diet or the inability of the body to utilize certain nutrients.

the 2 basic stages would be:
1). marasmus
2). starvation
2b). kwashiorkor - this would be associated with what we see in 3rd world countries were the children with extended bellies are deprived of proteins in the diet which is then mainly carbohydrate based. this would really be equal to starvation except the diet would be devoid of proteins and high in carbs.

you mentioned going into ketosis. I think that could almost technically be defined as a controlled method of starving the body of one energy source to force it to utilize another at a higher rate. but then again there are are lot of society's out there that naturally follow low carb diets, the hunter/gatherer types, etc.

And there's my point. Accidental starvation isn't really something most of us have to worry about.

not in terms of "starving" to death but I think there are a lot of people into fitness that do not consume enough calories to facilitate fat loss. still hear lots of people talk about being stuck at this and that weight for years, that's crazy fat loss is so simple. after long periods of dieting many would probably benefit from periods of overfeeding for a variety of reason.

Originally Posted by LAM

not in terms of "starving" to death but I think there are a lot of people into fitness that do not consume enough calories to facilitate fat loss. still hear lots of people talk about being stuck at this and that weight for years, that's crazy fat loss is so simple. after long periods of dieting many would probably benefit from periods of overfeeding for a variety of reason.

On this point, I agree, beyond a doubt. I've experienced this many times when I take a week or so off dieting and tracking. Upon resuming my cut, I invariably drop to a new low weight in the week or two that follows.

do more chinups

Personally, calorie cycling provides the best results for me unless on a cycle, then I can keep them low for the whole cycle and never seem to hit a plateau. But while OFF, cycling keeps things moving.