Thread: Refeed

A Refeed is basically just eating alot more over a certain period of time in order to prevent one's metabolism from decreasing. If done over a long period of time, it may also increase metabolism.

Yeah, what he said.

More specifically, putting your body in a fed state by overfeeding on carbohydrates to prevent or reduce a/the drop in leptin that comes as you restrict calories and reduce bodyfat.

It's also pretty much a cheat day

What if you refeed on protein and fat only? Will it have the same effect in raising leptin levels?

Originally posted by The Rose
What if you refeed on protein and fat only? Will it have the same effect in raising leptin levels?

Nope. Well, not unless you eat a hellishly high amount of protein. And the fat would suppress the insulin, which is what you want.

You want the glucose to be pushed into fat cells so it can produce more end product (the UD-acetylglucosamine, or whatever it's called i've spoke about in other threads). The amount of this end product the body has is how it determines how many calories it's getting (as well as the adipocytes/leptin thing). Which is why leptin drops so quick after even only one week of restricted calories.

The fat and protein would work, but only if you eat over maintenance calories for several days, so the system can 'reset' itself, if you will. The best part about carb overfeeding is that you can achieve the same effect in more or less one day, without any actual fat gain.

Ideally, a 'proper' refeed would have minimal fat. When you take in so many carbs, carb oxidation dramatically increases with metabolic rate (explains why you get flushed and sweaty when carb loading, refeeding or just plain old cheating), and fat oxidation pretty much stops (although i think this is different during the first carb loading day of a CKD where the body still preferentially burns FFA over carbs) so fat taken in during a refeed day has a higher chance of being stored as fat.

Not to mention insulin will be high, and high fat + high insulin = not a pretty picture.

What are the chances of gaining fat from a refeed?

It depends on the length of the refeed. 6-12 hours there is a minimal chance of weight gain, as most of the excess cals will be taken care of by thermogenesis (thats why you get hot when carbing up/refeeding). Something longer, say 2 days (ala CKD), you really have to count your carbs (and keep fat minimal) as fat gain is possible.

And is refeeding only appropriate if you have a low-carb diet or just generally eating in caloric deficit?

If you keep a refeed in a small duration, all you do is halt fat burning for the duration of the refeed and for a little while afterwards. Small duration being about 12 hours or so. Basically, set one day a side to refeed when dieting. Once you get really lean you may need to do them more frequently.

The chances of de neuvo lipogenesis is slim. The biggest chance you have of storing fat is if your fat intake for the day is too high (a bit like my refeeds with chocolate).

The carbs from the refeed will go towards glycogen storage, energy use, will pass straight through or will be burned off via thermogenesis like Yan said. But then, by overspilling into fat cells you boost leptin output, which alone will promote glycogen staring and fat burning, so will negate any calories ingested or any fat put on.

Once you get back into calorie deficit for the next few days the leptin will assist you burning more fat, retaining more muscle and generally help you get leaner.

Refeeding is appropriate for ANY cutting diet. In fact, it's recommended to do an isocaloric diet with refeeds so you don't have to eat as many carbs to fill glycogen before you spillover. But on a low carb diet you just gotta eat more carbs to achieve this.

Refeeds may even be beneficial when you're bulking, cause even though your cals are in surplus and the body is in a fed state, if you're leaner than your body would like to be you'll still get hunger pains and cravings like when cutting. So they may help you stay leaner and control calories easier.

Rob,

are you referring to lower carb based bulks or just in general? I've never really heard about re-feeds on a bulk, i would imagine it would make fat gain even easier (as you're already in surplus, then you have those mega-surplus days). Dunno just some conjecture on my part.

Hi Guys,
so refeed/carbloading, if you keep the calories the same as lowcarb, reduce the p/f is that fine!!
for eg: low carb C44 P184 F80
refeed C180 P100 F55,
OR
is it better to eat very low fat and protein that day, which works the best?
so if low carb is P50 F40 C10
WHAT WILL BE A REFEED BE? C60 P30 F10

Originally posted by QueenofSquats
Hi Guys,
so refeed/carbloading, if you keep the calories the same as lowcarb, reduce the p/f is that fine!!
for eg: low carb C44 P184 F80
refeed C180 P100 F55,
OR
is it better to eat very low fat and protein that day, which works the best?
so if low carb is P50 F40 C10
WHAT WILL BE A REFEED BE? C60 P30 F10

Hypocaloric day ratio = C44 P184 F80
An ideal carb up would be to keep protein bout the same, maybe add a little more. Keep fat at zero and get the rest from carbs. I think i remember Lyle saying something like you should keep your cals a little over maintanance, something like 10% over.

But you don't need to be so anal depending on how long your carbing up for. Some people carb-up every 3-4 days after their workout, for bout 6 hours. If you are going to do that, just stuff your face as much as you can with carbs and some protein, no real need to count. Just make sure to eat a lot (to keep insulin high and bump leptin).

Hey Yan, how are you? stuff my face...lol..
wouldn't that cause major bloating/gas...still counting calories is required or not? carb up will be good old complex carbs right? sweet potatoe oat meal blah! blah!, but I read that you need fat to stop the insulin spike, I tbsp butter or so right?
can carb up be sushi and muffins...lol...thats fat gain for sure right? two days in a row, or I am planning on Sun's & Wed, I have started the NHE, again since yesterday, when should I carb up?

Originally posted by QueenofSquats
Hey Yan, how are you? stuff my face...lol..
wouldn't that cause major bloating/gas...still counting calories is required or not? carb up will be good old complex carbs right? sweet potatoe oat meal blah! blah!, but I read that you need fat to stop the insulin spike, I tbsp butter or so right?
can carb up be sushi and muffins...lol...thats fat gain for sure right? two days in a row, or I am planning on Sun's & Wed, I have started the NHE, again since yesterday, when should I carb up?

I'm good. Losing fat, actually keeping up a social life. This diet is great . You?

i'm not too familiar with NHE, thats more of a question for Rob.

For a re-feed though that will last 6 hours or so, people put away 400-600g of carbs in those 6 hours. The carb source doesn't matter much, as oatmeal and cocoa puffs is the same thing at the end of the day to your body. Just don't overdo the fructose, as it does nothing for leptin, so watch the soda's and read the ingredients labels checking for High Fructose Corn Syrup and the like. Fat is kept low, because:

1. fat is stored as bodyfat much more efficiently, contrary to all the low-carber's beliefs. IE if you eat 10,000 cals of fat and 10,000cals of carbs, you will get fatter from the fat.

2. you want insulin as high as possible within those 6 hours. You need to spill over to your fat stores to bump leptin up.

sushi is a great re-feed food. You have the white rice supplying ample carbs and you have the fish and junk which supplies great protein, maybe not the best, but definitely not the worst.

There is some room for fat in the diet, an ideal carb up is zero fat. However who here is perfect? Check Rob's journal, he ate tons of chocolate and still lost fat. That doesn't mean a stick of butter with your muffin, but a little won't kill you (especially since you won't be doing the weekend binge like me )

weekend binge...whats on the plate this weekend, planned or just a major fest...have fun

you might want to check this out:


Carb-ups!!!!

i have had great luck with this. i personally carb up every 4th day. it's the last meal on that day and i'm very specific about what and how much i eat for my carb up. there's room for lots of different approaches - but this one (thanks w8 and Dr. Pain) has been the best for me by far. (i make adjustments as needed to keep it working)

Thanks NG,
I have started strict low carb 43g per day since yesterday, when should I carb up, have fat or not? I am 105lbs, % of p/c/f, I will check the link, thanks

Definitely go the the sticky thread in Nutrition near the top and read through the stuff w8lifter marked as "best nutritional threads"

I keep my carbs at about 30 g. a day (I'm 5' 9" and 140 lbs). Then I carb up last meal every 4th day. The carb up is based on your body weight. Mine is 5-6 grams yam, 3/4 c oatmeal (dry measure) 4 oz banana, 1 Tbs natural peanut butter.

I will usually make changes every 3-4 weeks or so. Depends how my body is responding. If a tweak has me increase daily carbs (like if I include oatmeal or brown rice or yam) then I stop the carb ups.

There's some great information in those threads - check them out!

Thanks, I read it, wow! thats less than me I am 105lbs 5feet 3inches and I am eating C44 P184 F80, and getting away with it, I checked your journal too, and will follow it, as you seem motivated...
I noticed that you don't eat the same calories everyday, do you increase the cal on carb up, do you cheat?

i should be getting 6 meals a day but this week i had a few days of 5 meals. the calories are typically 1680-1800 on non-carb up days. on carb up days the calories will come in around 2100.

are you subtracting the fiber from your carb count? if those 44 grams are coming from lots of green veggies etc. then i'm sure you're fine wiht your numbers as they are.

you can look at my old journal when i started this back in april if you want. that would probably be more helpful to you since it's more detailed. the journal started before this eating plan though so don't bother with anything prior to 4/22/02.

i'll definitely be changing things around as i go so my body doesn't adapt and my metabolism doesn't get too used to any one thing.

do i cheat? tough question. i haven't touched anything not on my eating plan for about 5 weeks. no slips at all. but i was cheating lots in july and august. i don't plan to do that again. not worth it! now i don't think of it as short term - i think that this is how i will eat (with changes) for always.


my old journal was called "so ready" if you do feel like looking. but those threads will really help - the fat loss primer, female cutting plans, carb ups, tweaks.....so much good stuff!

Originally posted by Yanick
Rob,

are you referring to lower carb based bulks or just in general? I've never really heard about re-feeds on a bulk, i would imagine it would make fat gain even easier (as you're already in surplus, then you have those mega-surplus days). Dunno just some conjecture on my part.

Well think of it:

If you get leaner than your body wants to be (i.e. far enough below your setpoint) then chances are you're gonna get all of the nasty-ass cravings and the like even if your calories are in surplus. There's more than one way to sense leptin - one via the acetylglucosamine-blah blah thing from calories passing through the hexosamine biosynthetic pathway, and there's bodyfat releasing leptin. If you have less bodyfat releasing letin than your body likes then you can still run into problems.

But then again, if you feel happy when in a gaining phase, and the nagging things aren't there, then refeeds may not be warranted.

By the way, since a NHE is the diet in question, i'd follow Nike Girl's advice on the carb loads. Refeeds don't fit in well with NHE unless you're really lean, maybe. The carb loads are too frequent on NHE for refeeds to be used. Unless you're only carbing up say, once a week - then a refeed in in order.

Refeeds - set protein at around 1g per lb. Add no extra fat sources - only accept fat from protein and carb sources.

No need to count calories really since you'll be eating over maintenance, but eat maybe at least 200-300g or so throughout the day for your size. Or through the latter half of the day.

But stick with the smaller carb loads for now, maybe until you get real lean.

Thanks NG and Chicken D, but hey!! I am confused between refeed and carb up, whats the difference, I am quite lean, 104lbs 12%bf now, my goal is to gain muscle and stay lean...maintain for winter...so you problems with getting more lean, just trying this as a lifestyle...so whats the difference between carb up/refeed and do I do both? carb up twice/ refeed????

Well there's no 'set' definition between them. But for me, a carb load is where you set aside 1-2 meals at the end of the day focusing on carbs to replenish glycogen and the rest.

A refeed is a purposeful attempt to overfeed on carbs in a bid to overspill into fat cells to signal leptin expression.

I reckon, Carb up is essential if you are low carb, twice a week, how often is refeed required, how many calories safely you can go over on maintaince?

Sounds pretty similar to carb cycling just before a show......

Originally posted by QueenofSquats
I reckon, Carb up is essential if you are low carb, twice a week, how often is refeed required, how many calories safely you can go over on maintaince?

Yes to your first statement - at least if you want any reasonable success, anyway.

Carbs ups should be essential on any calorie deficit diet IMO.

"How often is refeed required?"

How long is a piece of string?



Seriously though, you know leptin is low when:

you feel like shit.
you're hungry all the time.
you're obsessed with food.
you have crazy-ass sugar cravings.
You feel run down and fatigued.

Less obvious ones: Your sex drive lessens (which most blame on fatigue et al, but it's a problem in it's own right).
Possible menstrual irregularities.

Some other stuff i've forgotten.

And usually it's around this time when a refeed should be implemented. Your choice really.

Calories - well just set protein at around 1g per lb. And keep fat intake at only the indirect intake from protein and carb sources (sticking with carb sources with lowest fat possible). Shoot for around 400-500g carbs depending on size. I'd shoot for around 500g over about 12 hours (so that's like over a waking day). Someone smaller wouldn't need as much, but then again, there's no set figure. You can get in about 700g carbs before any de neuvo lipogenesis occurs and even after that it's minimal unless you continue the intake for the second day or more (i.e. long term overfeeding makes you fat, not short term - unless fat intake is ridiculously high).

Your carb intake may need to be a bit higher if you're on a low carb diet (cause you have more glycogen space to fill).