Thread: Can't understand Keto Vs All other diets

Keto is not only for obese people. You have that perception because it has been packaged and marketed as the Atkins Diet. There are a number of attractive aspects of this diet that map well to an obese audience who have probably had a terrible time w/ diets / have negative perception of diets and their success as well as "fear" of the impact on their current lifestyles and ability to succeed at it. These include:

- when you drop carbs from your diet, you also see a dramatic drop in weight fairly quickly (due to water - NOT fat), which helps w/ the frustration aspect of trying to see some results quickly.

- from a "lifestyle change" to make this diet reasonably easy to follow - I think people find it easy to adopt and doesn't require that they starve (which is usually the biggest perceived "scarey" part of dieting.)

- very simply putting many of these people on a structured diet where they are more aware of their portions, will produce some sort of result, regardless of keto or otherwise.

- removing the large category of carb-foods from a diet helps to remove those foods that are high in sugar which allows the person to start weaning themselves off of their body's sugar addicition - thus also removing sugar spiking -> cortisol spiking.

- from a health standpoint, it is becoming well-documented that a keto-style diet works very well for diabetes patients, and Type 2 (Adult) Diabetes is a common "side effect" of obesity.
-- Study - keto diet may reverse kidney failure
-- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1325029/

On the other side, the problem w/ people's naive perception of keto diets is the only part they pick up on is the "low/no carb" thing - but then don't understand that the carbs have to be < 20 g (or so) to actually switch over to ketones - and if you're not going low enough (e.g. 30 g) but staying at that level you're not helping yourself because you've left yourself w/ not enough energy source to do anything except stall out your metabolism.

I know a number of people who follow a keto-style diet for both bulking and cutting for competition, including myself. As Built has noted many times in her discussions, she tends to work better w/ a preference for fats over carbs, so I believe there are some people who actually do work better w/ fats over carbs. But you have to manage how much and if you're cutting, you also need to manage the total cals you're getting. People often use keto when they have an agressive target competition schedule and need to lose flab, but in focusing on dumping fat aggressively (i.e w/ more restricted cals) I've found that keto can produce more muscle loss.

Great points Sassy. Also the keto diet was initially designed for people who suffer from epilepsy.

On my last contest prep, I made the mistake of going on a trip 7 weeks out. I was right on schedule when I left but I fell behind while I was gone. I tried to eat clean while I was away, but it was just a bad idea.

When I got back I had to switch over to keto in order to make up for lost ground. Although the results came quickly, I was not/am not a fan of this diet.

I prefer carbs in diets, the works far better for me.

Originally Posted by sassy69

Keto is not only for obese people. You have that perception because it has been packaged and marketed as the Atkins Diet. There are a number of attractive aspects of this diet that map well to an obese audience who have probably had a terrible time w/ diets / have negative perception of diets and their success as well as "fear" of the impact on their current lifestyles and ability to succeed at it. These include:

- when you drop carbs from your diet, you also see a dramatic drop in weight fairly quickly (due to water - NOT fat), which helps w/ the frustration aspect of trying to see some results quickly.

- from a "lifestyle change" to make this diet reasonably easy to follow - I think people find it easy to adopt and doesn't require that they starve (which is usually the biggest perceived "scarey" part of dieting.)

- very simply putting many of these people on a structured diet where they are more aware of their portions, will produce some sort of result, regardless of keto or otherwise.

- removing the large category of carb-foods from a diet helps to remove those foods that are high in sugar which allows the person to start weaning themselves off of their body's sugar addicition - thus also removing sugar spiking -> cortisol spiking.

- from a health standpoint, it is becoming well-documented that a keto-style diet works very well for diabetes patients, and Type 2 (Adult) Diabetes is a common "side effect" of obesity.
-- Study - keto diet may reverse kidney failure
-- A low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet to treat type 2 diabetes

On the other side, the problem w/ people's naive perception of keto diets is the only part they pick up on is the "low/no carb" thing - but then don't understand that the carbs have to be < 20 g (or so) to actually switch over to ketones - and if you're not going low enough (e.g. 30 g) but staying at that level you're not helping yourself because you've left yourself w/ not enough energy source to do anything except stall out your metabolism.

I know a number of people who follow a keto-style diet for both bulking and cutting for competition, including myself. As Built has noted many times in her discussions, she tends to work better w/ a preference for fats over carbs, so I believe there are some people who actually do work better w/ fats over carbs. But you have to manage how much and if you're cutting, you also need to manage the total cals you're getting. People often use keto when they have an agressive target competition schedule and need to lose flab, but in focusing on dumping fat aggressively (i.e w/ more restricted cals) I've found that keto can produce more muscle loss.

Ok so I know more now...but still dont fathom... Ok fine so you tell me. I want to retain as much muscle as possible and get to a very lean body mass. Im already fairly lean at 11-13% and want to get to 7-9%. Time isnt a factor I dont mind waiting 6 months if it means I get to keep my muscle that I seem to now be loosing. Please be specific.
Thank you

Originally Posted by red rocket

Great points Sassy. Also the keto diet was initially designed for people who suffer from epilepsy.

On my last contest prep, I made the mistake of going on a trip 7 weeks out. I was right on schedule when I left but I fell behind while I was gone. I tried to eat clean while I was away, but it was just a bad idea.

When I got back I had to switch over to keto in order to make up for lost ground. Although the results came quickly, I was not/am not a fan of this diet.

I prefer carbs in diets, the works far better for me.

What you say is a contradiction. The results came quickly, but you didnt like it, and carbs work better for you?

Originally Posted by Tiroof!

What you say is a contradiction. The results came quickly, but you didnt like it, and carbs work better for you?

Where's the contradiction?

He followed a keto diet in order to get back on track and though results came quickly—since he prefers carbs in diets—he's still not a fan of keto.

Are you a competitor?

I'm a less than average joe (6'1"/200 lbs.) and keto works fine for that type.

Originally Posted by Curt James

Where's the contradiction?

He followed a keto diet in order to get back on track and though results came quickly—since he prefers carbs in diets—he's still not a fan of keto.

Are you a competitor?

I'm a less than average joe (6'1"/200 lbs.) and keto works fine for that type.

Not a competitor. What does "less than average joe" mean? So if you aint cutting carbs out then what dO u cut out? Fats? won't that just compound the problem because since your eating still a fair amount of carbs your gonna get some good insulin response ?

Originally Posted by Curt James

Where's the contradiction?

He followed a keto diet in order to get back on track and though results came quickly—since he prefers carbs in diets—he's still not a fan of keto.

Are you a competitor?

I'm a less than average joe (6'1"/200 lbs.) and keto works fine for that type.

Also, really no offense at all. But when you cut with Keto. although you got a bit lean You lost a lot of muscle mass.

At 3:12 he talks about nutrition.

Originally Posted by Tiroof!

What you say is a contradiction. The results came quickly, but you didnt like it, and carbs work better for you?

I think what he's saying is it works great if you're in a desperation situation but given a preference, he would rather not be in the desperation situation & have the time to follow a carb diet.

It can be a tough diet - its hard to find food w/o carbs and also if you're using it to make up for time lost, you are probably also restricting your cals more and spreading out your refeeds. So yes, it can suck.

Interesting video, But I do not agree with some of his thoughts. Espically glyconagenisis
The only way your body is going catabolic is if you have a severe caloric deficit

I have been on 50% P 25% C 25% F diet with restricted calories for 4 months
I still go into Ketosis @ 82 grams of carbs a day. lifting 3 x a week and three hours of cardio.
I have lost 32 pounds of fat since 2-26-11 and gained Muscle in the process.

Originally Posted by jagbender

Interesting video, But I do not agree with some of his thoughts. Espically glyconagenisis
The only way your body is going catabolic is if you have a severe caloric deficit

I have been on 50% P 25% C 25% F diet with restricted calories for 4 months
I still go into Ketosis @ 82 grams of carbs a day. lifting 3 x a week and three hours of cardio.
I have lost 32 pounds of fat since 2-26-11 and gained Muscle in the process.

Wait how can you possibly go into Ketosis @82 grams a day!?!?
How do you know you gained muscle while loosing fat? Where you a begginer at the time? HOW IS THIS ALL POSSIBLE!?!?!

also 82 is nothing my friend im cutting with 235 grams and thats 32% of my calorie intake...

can someone just tell me what to do? I cont know whats optimum at this point

Originally Posted by Tiroof!

Wait how can you possibly go into Ketosis @82 grams a day!?!?
How do you know you gained muscle while loosing fat? Where you a begginer at the time? HOW IS THIS ALL POSSIBLE!?!?!

also 82 is nothing my friend im cutting with 235 grams and thats 32% of my calorie intake...

With the level of exercise and a caloric deficit I was using all carbs.

I cycle my carbs weekly ketogenic 6 days a week with a carb load.


Also On HRT 50 Y/O male

Not neccesarly a beginner but I have not lifted in 4 years

If you are curious check out the link in my signature for my journal

Originally Posted by Tiroof!

can someone just tell me what to do? I cont know whats optimum at this point

CKD Cyclical Ketogenic Diet Lyle Mcdonald

Originally Posted by jagbender

CKD Cyclical Ketogenic Diet Lyle Mcdonald

But Sassy said that isnt best for muscle retention..

Where? I believe she was talking about agressivly restricting calories and prepping for a competition.
If you are not on a time schedule Keto should work wonders. when you restrict carbs your body is forced to burn fat for fuel. Want to cut?

Carb cycling (carb loading ) reglycogonates your muscles and keeps your strength up.

If you are cutting you are going to have to cut calories and live on a caloric deficit to lose the fat. ketosis helps take away the hunger pangs and make the caloric deficit tolerable.

As for me The HRT has definatly helped with the fat loss and muscle retention / growth.

Lyle McDonald has a wonderful book. Lots of good information.
Google CKD diet and read about it.


BTW does anyone know of a comfortable way to cut calories?

[QUOTE=sassy69;2370195]
I know a number of people who follow a keto-style diet for both bulking and cutting for competition, including myself. As Built has noted many times in her discussions, she tends to work better w/ a preference for fats over carbs, so I believe there are some people who actually do work better w/ fats over carbs. But you have to manage how much and if you're cutting, you also need to manage the total cals you're getting. People often use keto when they have an agressive target competition schedule and need to lose flab, but in focusing on dumping fat aggressively (i.e w/ more restricted cals) I've found that keto can produce more muscle loss.[/QUOTE]


Here?

Originally Posted by Tiroof!

can someone just tell me what to do? I cont know whats optimum at this point

K bud, basically here it is in a nutshell. Find someone you trust, in your area or on a board. And hire them to make these decisions for you.

There are people who can look at you and assess what the best direction to go is. Give you options, different food selections, and even some recipes and tips to help make things better along the way. Ways to help your body stop craving bad foods, and tips on what snacks are acceptable and which ones aren't.

What are your goals?
What do you currently eat?

The diet that is "best" is the one you can follow the most consistently. Like I said, keto can be easy to follow if you don't care about variety of food - I think many people find it easy to follow e.g. during the work week (both in terms of more restricted cals & staying w/ protein + fats) and then do a carb up on the weekend.

The biggest caveat I'd give w/ a keto diet is that because you are exchanging carbs for ketones as your energy source, you will find it very hard to do any sort of burst-energy type training or cardio. From my own experience, I've found this to include anything more than walking steady-state cardio (however I can do that for up to 2 x 1.5 hrs) or lifts in your upper weight range where you really have to push it (e.g. I've come near to blacking out doing a 10 plate-per-side leg press). If you need the ability to do those sorts of burst-energy activities, keto is probably not the best choice because you're not fueling to support these things.

An alternative that has also worked very well for me is carb cycling. This allows you to keep carbs as your energy source but you vary the amount on a short cycle (e.g. 3-4 days) between "low" to "medium" to "high". You can define what each of these is. I've found that to really make a difference you need to make the difference at least 30 g of carb day to day. For guys, the delta is usually more like on the order of 75-100 g difference day to day, but for me when I'm cutting my max carb day ("high" day) is going to be something like 80-90 g and a "low" day could be zero to 25-30 g.

Originally Posted by Tiroof!

Not a competitor. What does "less than average joe" mean? So if you aint cutting carbs out then what dO u cut out? Fats? won't that just compound the problem because since your eating still a fair amount of carbs your gonna get some good insulin response ?

If you're not a competitor then why worry about losing a bit of muscle if your primary goal is to get shredded?

The comment "less than average joe" was simply a joking reference to my less than ideal aesthetics.

I was on keto but am currently eating a mix of protein, carbs, and fats. I don't keep track of percentages or count calories. When I'm on keto I maintain a very limited menu as I have no problem eating the same thing over and over.

Originally Posted by Tiroof!

Also, really no offense at all. But when you cut with Keto. although you got a bit lean You lost a lot of muscle mass.

I don't believe that's a true statement in my case. My keto was a 15-week process where I lost about 1.5 lbs. per week dropping from 199 to 176.

Originally Posted by Tiroof!

can someone just tell me what to do? I cont know whats optimum at this point

Originally Posted by sassy69

The diet that is "best" is the one you can follow the most consistently.

I agree, it's going to be hard to not lose some muscle when going for extreme cutting or especially getting over a low fat plateau if you're already lean. If you're not trying to compete what's the big deal. I would try CKD or a modified approach of it. This way you get that extreme fat burning edge but you don't get too weak. I would modify what I need to in order to get some heavy lifts on my carb up days or just after in order to preserve mass. Pick something and go at it 100% Everyone learns what's best for them by doing it. You're not going to get it perfectly your first time or two. Even pros will tell you this. They might try one approach then another. I know I need to go keto for a week or two or damn near it in order to kick start my approach. Then I might add more carbs in later. And yes, the best diet is the one you'll stick to!

Then I guess more my q is...
If excess protein doesn't get transferred to fat bu instead gets transferred to the kidneys...then I cant/dont need to cut from it. I'll automatically get exactly what I need without fat from protein if its in an excess. Now I have a choice to cut from fat and or carbs. Whats more effective? That's perhaps a better question

Originally Posted by Tiroof!

Then I guess more my q is...
If excess protein doesn't get transferred to fat bu instead gets transferred to the kidneys...then I cant/dont need to cut from it. I'll automatically get exactly what I need without fat from protein if its in an excess. Now I have a choice to cut from fat and or carbs. Whats more effective? That's perhaps a better question

I don't get what you're saying. It kinda sounds like you're confusing bodyfat from excess calories vs fats as a nutrient?

Originally Posted by Tiroof!

Then I guess more my q is...
If excess protein doesn't get transferred to fat bu instead gets transferred to the kidneys...then I cant/dont need to cut from it. I'll automatically get exactly what I need without fat from protein if its in an excess. Now I have a choice to cut from fat and or carbs. Whats more effective? That's perhaps a better question

Let me restructure.

Excess protein doesnt get converted into bodyfat (correct?). So an "unlimited" marker can be put in protein. Therefore the only 2 sources of "energy" are fat and Carbs. Whats the most effective list to cut from? From what people have said it sounds like it depends. For a really lean cut carbs but due to glycogen sources becoming depleted you workout gets hit and muscle loss is mostly "carbs" so some loss must be expected. A fat cut lessens your body's reliability on fat as a source of energy at all so the loss is (slower? this part doesn't make total sense as a deficit is a deficit. Am I implying yet again muscle loss?????) But cutting from fat is a hit to the lining in the nervous system and has other negative effects on the body that carb cutting would not....how close am I? and whats the answer?

Originally Posted by Tiroof!

Let me restructure.

Excess protein doesnt get converted into bodyfat (correct?). So an "unlimited" marker can be put in protein. Therefore the only 2 sources of "energy" are fat and Carbs. Whats the most effective list to cut from? From what people have said it sounds like it depends. For a really lean cut carbs but due to glycogen sources becoming depleted you workout gets hit and muscle loss is mostly "carbs" so some loss must be expected. A fat cut lessens your body's reliability on fat as a source of energy at all so the loss is (slower? this part doesn't make total sense as a deficit is a deficit. Am I implying yet again muscle loss?????) But cutting from fat is a hit to the lining in the nervous system and has other negative effects on the body that carb cutting would not....how close am I? and whats the answer?

Macronutrients are either used or stored. If you're overconsuming protein, whatever can't be used, will get stored (as bodyfat). In a ketogenic diet it is ketones, a byproduct of protein metabolism, not macronutrient fats that are being used as the energy source.

I'm still sort of confused as to where you are going with this. The point is really not to cut yourself down so far that you have absolute min calories. Let me qualify the goals of you, I'm assuming, to get down to a low bodyfat and then maintain it for a while? Vs a competition goal of cutting down as low as fucking possible, including water manipulation, for a duration of 1 day, 2-3 at the most. So again, I don't think you need to look at cutting any of these nutrients really far down. I think more the point is to find an optimal amount, add in some cardio to your training and then set up a burn rate to cut, and then slowly add a little to ease back to some sort of maintenance, if that is your goal.

I don't think that anyone can tell you exactly the best and only way to cut. THere are several ways, it is just that a keto diet relies on removal of carbs so you need to understand how to work this diet if you're going to go that route. I can point you to many of my friends who use this diet for on or off-season (there's a carb up, you don't just starve yourself on no carbs all the time) - these include bodybuilders who are able to build on the diet as well as cut. Have you spent time reading up on a Cyclic Ketogenic Diet? Try here:
Training on the Cyclical Ketogenic Diet: Effects of Cyclical Ketogenic Diets on Exercise Performance

Another very useful approach that keeps it simple by including carbs, is just by cycling the carbs and / or total calories. You can schedule your hi carb days to match w/ your training needs, or not. Whatever. The point is to eat enough to keep your metabolism moving but not so much that it starts to store as bodyfat. By definition, if you're cutting you're going to be giving up some muscle. You can optimize how much you lose, but you're still going to give some up.

tiroof, you may find these interesting:

Nutrient Intake, Nutrient Storage and Nutrient Oxidation | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald


Excess Protein and Fat Storage - Q&A | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald

Originally Posted by sassy69

Keto is not only for obese people. You have that perception because it has been packaged and marketed as the Atkins Diet. There are a number of attractive aspects of this diet that map well to an obese audience who have probably had a terrible time w/ diets / have negative perception of diets and their success as well as "fear" of the impact on their current lifestyles and ability to succeed at it. These include:

- when you drop carbs from your diet, you also see a dramatic drop in weight fairly quickly (due to water - NOT fat), which helps w/ the frustration aspect of trying to see some results quickly.

- from a "lifestyle change" to make this diet reasonably easy to follow - I think people find it easy to adopt and doesn't require that they starve (which is usually the biggest perceived "scarey" part of dieting.)

- very simply putting many of these people on a structured diet where they are more aware of their portions, will produce some sort of result, regardless of keto or otherwise.

- removing the large category of carb-foods from a diet helps to remove those foods that are high in sugar which allows the person to start weaning themselves off of their body's sugar addicition - thus also removing sugar spiking -> cortisol spiking.

- from a health standpoint, it is becoming well-documented that a keto-style diet works very well for diabetes patients, and Type 2 (Adult) Diabetes is a common "side effect" of obesity.
-- Study - keto diet may reverse kidney failure
-- A low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet to treat type 2 diabetes

On the other side, the problem w/ people's naive perception of keto diets is the only part they pick up on is the "low/no carb" thing - but then don't understand that the carbs have to be < 20 g (or so) to actually switch over to ketones - and if you're not going low enough (e.g. 30 g) but staying at that level you're not helping yourself because you've left yourself w/ not enough energy source to do anything except stall out your metabolism.

I know a number of people who follow a keto-style diet for both bulking and cutting for competition, including myself. As Built has noted many times in her discussions, she tends to work better w/ a preference for fats over carbs, so I believe there are some people who actually do work better w/ fats over carbs. But you have to manage how much and if you're cutting, you also need to manage the total cals you're getting. People often use keto when they have an agressive target competition schedule and need to lose flab, but in focusing on dumping fat aggressively (i.e w/ more restricted cals) I've found that keto can produce more muscle loss.

Nicely put