Thread: Eat your carbs at night kids

Unless youre on tren!

Wow, I had no idea. Interested in if there will be any followups to discover clarify mechanism.

I've been doing this for years. It's the only way I feel comfortable.

Wow... I wish I was a kid again..

It's amazing how many myths there are about dieting. Almost every bodybuilding book or magazine I've read speaks against carbs at night for cutting

Originally Posted by patricio

It's amazing how many myths there are about dieting. Almost every bodybuilding book or magazine I've read speaks against carbs at night for cutting

medical studies can be very subjective you have to be able to interpret them to see if they are applicable in "your" case. that study used police officers who are notoriously high stressed, nutritionally poor eaters, moderate to heavy drinkers, etc. there are many factors not listed in the study that are typical of that line of work.

generally a lifter looking to decrease body fat would not consume much carbs at night or at least not much of high GI carbs. the level of activity is usually the lowest and insulin resistance typically decreases throughout the day as the result of feeding periodically. since the ingestion of carbs cause the greatest increase in serum glucose and insulin not consuming them in the daytime would allow the AR receptors to still be very sensitive to the effects of insulin at night. exercise also primes skeletal muscle for nutrient uptake via GLUT-4 translocation.

you definitely don't want to ingest a lot of carbs shortly before bed as elevated insulin levels blunt GH secretion with the majority of GH being released at the end of the 1st sleep cycle.

Originally Posted by LAM

generally a lifter looking to decrease body fat would not consume much carbs at night or at least not much of high GI carbs.

I disagree with this. Not only does the research support PM carbs, the results of many do as well.

For cutting, the single most important factor is satiety - if you can't stand your diet, it won't work because you'll cheat on it. Bedtime carbs enhance satiety and hence, compliance. AM carbs set many of us up for uncontrollable hunger. Read up on "ghrelin rebound". Believe me, it's not fun.

Originally Posted by Built

I disagree with this. Not only does the research support PM carbs, the results of many do as well.

For cutting, the single most important factor is satiety - if you can't stand your diet, it won't work because you'll cheat on it. Bedtime carbs enhance satiety and hence, compliance. AM carbs set many of us up for uncontrollable hunger. Read up on "ghrelin rebound". Believe me, it's not fun.

yes a lot of research performed on the mild obese, or persons with high BMI, sedentary individual, etc.

can you consume carbs at night, sure is it optimum certainly not. In 30 years I have never meet an IFBB pro that consumes a lot of carbs at night and they are masters at manipulating body fat even when discounting the effects that gear has on the metabolism.

there is no logical reason to consume a lot of carbs at night when the level of activity is the least for most. most that have allowed the body fat to get out of control have issues with self-discipline along with a low knowledge of foods and the related effects on the endocrine system after consumption.

I do not believe in tempting fate and as you stated satiety is a factor and very few over eat on high fiber foods, they usually do on low in fiber and higher than average GI carbohydrates.

Originally Posted by LAM

yes a lot of research performed on the mild obese, or persons with high BMI, sedentary individual, etc.

can you consume carbs at night, sure is it optimum certainly not. In 30 years I have never meet an IFBB pro that consumes a lot of carbs at night and they are masters at manipulating body fat even when discounting the effects that gear has on the metabolism.

Do you know a great many IFBB pros? Did any of them try it to see which way worked better? Or are they all doing the way it's always been done?

there is no logical reason to consume a lot of carbs at night when the level of activity is the least for most. most that have allowed the body fat to get out of control have issues with self-discipline along with a low knowledge of foods and the related effects on the endocrine system after consumption.

If I had known to keep my carbs for evening, I never would have become fat. I got fat eating high-fibre, "low GI" foods.

I got lean eating foods that satisfied me: meat and fat.

I stay lean eating protein and fat during the day, and limiting carbs to the end of the day.

I do not believe in tempting fate and as you stated satiety is a factor and very few over eat on high fiber foods, they usually do on low in fiber and higher than average GI carbohydrates.

You might want to qualify your statement. The lowest GI sugar is fructose (usually listed at about 19). Not something I'd recommend - and one of the reasons why I completely ignore GI values. Insulinemic index values might be a more apt tool as these things go. For instance, according to the GI, white potatoes are a no-no because they have a high GI. But they top the chart with regard to satiety, and promote a strong insulin response. Foods that elicit a strong insulin response tend to be more satiating than foods which do not. Insulin index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

yep reading more and more about this lately! Good post!

Originally Posted by Built

Do you know a great many IFBB pros? Did any of them try it to see which way worked better? Or are they all doing the way it's always been done?


If I had known to keep my carbs for evening, I never would have become fat. I got fat eating high-fibre, "low GI" foods.

I got lean eating foods that satisfied me: meat and fat.

I stay lean eating protein and fat during the day, and limiting carbs to the end of the day.



You might want to qualify your statement. The lowest GI sugar is fructose (usually listed at about 19). Not something I'd recommend - and one of the reasons why I completely ignore GI values. Insulinemic index values might be a more apt tool as these things go. For instance, according to the GI, white potatoes are a no-no because they have a high GI. But they top the chart with regard to satiety, and promote a strong insulin response. Foods that elicit a strong insulin response tend to be more satiating than foods which do not. Insulin index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Built, do you know of any good legitimate comprehensive list of "the most satieting foods"?

Yeah....I wish everyone I ever competed against was eating bread, pasta and white potatoes before bed to feel satisfied! Would have made prejudging easier. What does Chris Aceto know anyway, who's he ever put on stage in shape....?

do it! I eat about 125g carbs then go to bed 10mins later. Obviously im bulking tho

yeah I hear ya.... it would depend on metabolism and body type for me.....even off season I always tried to keep my guys in really good shape. I was much happier getting them superlean well before the show and eating back to the show. Almost everyone that competes looks their best 2 or 3 days after the show when they start eating again. It's sad but true. Pulling startch out of the last meal....then the last couple meals and so on and cycling the carbs always worked best for me. Offseason and pre contest.

A hardgainer may eat carbs right up to bedtime. It all depends on the individual and their metabolism. I never saw any advantage to gaining extra fat during a bulk phase....just made it so much harder to get him tight onstage. If you maintain a sensible bodyfat % during the bulk phase and look good then do it. I do approach all of this from the perspective of competitive bodybuilding and that is not neccessarily everyones goal. nor should it be.

If you train in the evening you have no choice in my opinion but to eat carbs at night. I like all starch in the early meals and transition to fibrous carbs later in the day. I like my guys to train in the morning and pound carbs postworkout and eat cleaner as it gets closer to bedtime. I stole it all from Chris Aceto....why reinvent the wheel?

Originally Posted by Mavrik

Yeah....I wish everyone I ever competed against was eating bread, pasta and white potatoes before bed to feel satisfied! Would have made prejudging easier. What does Chris Aceto know anyway, who's he ever put on stage in shape....?

To be fair, Mavrik, the vast majority of us aren't going for contest-lean. Lean for most of us here probably means "visible abs". Competitive bodybuilders and other physique athletes who are likely to win are also likely to be from superior genetic stock to begin with - and something tells me many of Aceto's clients aren't entirely natural. Lots of rules change with the right compounds at the right time.

Originally Posted by Mavrik

yeah I hear ya.... it would depend on metabolism and body type for me.....even off season I always tried to keep my guys in really good shape. I was much happier getting them superlean well before the show and eating back to the show. Almost everyone that competes looks their best 2 or 3 days after the show when they start eating again. It's sad but true. Pulling startch out of the last meal....then the last couple meals and so on and cycling the carbs always worked best for me. Offseason and pre contest.

A hardgainer may eat carbs right up to bedtime.

I am no hardgainer. I'm a middle-aged woman who was fat for a long time. I don't eat carbs right up to bedtime - rather, I eat them ONLY at bedtime. There's a difference. And I usually train at noon - and often fasted.

Originally Posted by Mavrik

It all depends on the individual and their metabolism. I never saw any advantage to gaining extra fat during a bulk phase....just made it so much harder to get him tight onstage. If you maintain a sensible bodyfat % during the bulk phase and look good then do it. I do approach all of this from the perspective of competitive bodybuilding and that is not neccessarily everyones goal. nor should it be.

If you train in the evening you have no choice in my opinion but to eat carbs at night. I like all starch in the early meals and transition to fibrous carbs later in the day. I like my guys to train in the morning and pound carbs postworkout and eat cleaner as it gets closer to bedtime. I stole it all from Chris Aceto....why reinvent the wheel?

Why reinvent the wheel? Oh... I don't know. I mean, Ford did a perfectly good job with the Model T, right? Who really needed a Porsche?

Mavrik, to add on to what Built said:

Individuals who are/have ever been fat tend to have a physiology that differs from the mechanisms in a lean individual. "Lifetime-lean" folks' sensitivity to key satiety hormones such as leptin, ghrelin and insulin tend to be different enough to those of a fat or formerly fat person that 'special' considerations are necessary to keep fat folks compliant. The approach to dieting needs to fit the satiety response of the dieter.

If one is taking into account IFBB-type individuals, then one needs take into account all the exogenous hormones/chemicals (AAS, growth hormone, peptides, insulin, etc) that affect metabolism and satiety too.

Chris Aceto's advice for professional, geared bodybuilders may not fit for the majority of lifters and is even less fitting for the revolving door of beginners who tend to visit bodybuilding forums.

of course it depends on the goals of the individuals. all I can tell you is that for the 15 tears I trained local and high level bodybuilders and Miss Fitness competitors the same basic nutritional concepts when applied to to the general public (which would be 95% of my clients) still held true.

Bodybuilding/Fitness competitors have taken building muscle, maintaining that muscle and leaning out to an extreme for sure and not everyone may want to take it to that extreme. Nor would I recommend that they should. However, those in reality are the exact same goals most people have that use resistance training, cardio and nutrition to get more fit. It certainly does not mean the nutritional and fitness principles used to accomplish those goals do not have application for the general fitness oriented public.

I wish all of my clients were "lifetime lean folks". They just aren't the biggest segment of the fitness market. Having owned 4 fitness centers I got to see a lot of different body types as members and in my own personal training business. The lifetime leaners just didn't seem to hire personal trainers.

My degree in exercise physiology and nutrition was admittedly a very long time ago but I would have to do some serious reading to see the benefits of lifting weights for fitness, fasting and eating all my carbs before bedtime. It's an interesting approach and I am sure it works for some.

I am certainly the type of person that when I embarqued on cycling as an aerobic activity I read all of Chris Carmichael's (Lance Armstrong's coach) books on cycling and applied some of those principles to my own cycling. Just because he coaches athletes using steroids, HGH and blood doping does not mean the principles of training and nutrition Chris Carmichael developed over years of training high end performance athletes have no merit for people looking to get fit riding a bike. Same could be said for Mr. Aceto.

As Marat said........I thought this was a bodybuilding forum. Not sure the revolving door of beginning bodybuilders are best served with post that may recommend carb fasting all day and eating all of your carbs at night. As always....Just my opinion.

Originally Posted by Mavrik

of course it depends on the goals of the individuals. all I can tell you is that for the 15 tears I trained local and high level bodybuilders and Miss Fitness competitors the same basic nutritional concepts when applied to to the general public (which would be 95% of my clients) still held true.

How many people have you seen go from obese to heathy-lean and stay there, with very little difficulty, for ten or more years?

Originally Posted by Mavrik

Bodybuilding/Fitness competitors have taken building muscle, maintaining that muscle and leaning out to an extreme for sure and not everyone may want to take it to that extreme. Nor would I recommend that they should. However, those in reality are the exact same goals most people have that use resistance training, cardio and nutrition to get more fit.

No, they are not the exact same goals.

Bodybuilding/fitness competitors have a goal of attaining contest-lean levels of bodyfat for five minutes. Once they are off the stage, they start eating. Women I have known in figure and bodybuilding gain up to and even over 30-40 lbs in the off season. Many don't even look like they compete in the off-season. They just look like big healthy farm-girls.

I don't know any "ordinary folk" who would be happy to live like this. I know I'm not - I don't compete. I'm a middle aged woman who was fat for twenty years. I don't want to fluctuate more than 8-10 lbs over the course f a year, and I've been able to keep my weight under this control since 2001.

Originally Posted by Mavrik

It certainly does not mean the nutritional and fitness principles used to accomplish those goals do not have application for the general fitness oriented public.

Some of 'em, sure. Eat protein, lift heavy shit, don't try to cardio off the weight. Those are all good. The rest, the extreme micro-management of meals - as my buddy juggernaut would say, faggeddaboutdit!

Originally Posted by Mavrik

I wish all of my clients were "lifetime lean folks". They just aren't the biggest segment of the fitness market. Having owned 4 fitness centers I got to see a lot of different body types as members and in my own personal training business. The lifetime leaners just didn't seem to hire personal trainers.

No. They tend to be the ones dolling out the advice. And they typically have NO CLUE what it's like to live as a dieted-down former fatty.

Originally Posted by Mavrik

My degree in exercise physiology and nutrition was admittedly a very long time ago but I would have to do some serious reading to see the benefits of lifting weights for fitness, fasting and eating all my carbs before bedtime.

Please DO get up to speed on the recent research - I'm finding it FASCINATING.

Originally Posted by Mavrik

It's an interesting approach and I am sure it works for some.

I am certainly the type of person that when I embarqued on cycling as an aerobic activity I read all of Chris Carmichael's (Lance Armstrong's coach) books on cycling and applied some of those principles to my own cycling. Just because he coaches athletes using steroids, HGH and blood doping does not mean the principles of training and nutrition Chris Carmichael developed over years of training high end performance athletes have no merit for people looking to get fit riding a bike. Same could be said for Mr. Aceto.

As Marat said........I thought this was a bodybuilding forum. Not sure the revolving door of beginning bodybuilders are best served with post that may recommend carb fasting all day and eating all of your carbs at night. As always....Just my opinion.

See I disagree. Why start with the outdated, sub-optimal bro-school approach, and THEN graduate to really powerful tools, such as intermittent fasting and eating your carbs at night? Why not just do it the right way, right from the get-go? I surely would have appreciated this information twenty years ago.

I have been following a nutritional guideline given to me by Built in an effort to drop some bodyweight prior to the birth of our child in December. I started at 300+ at about 17% bodyfat, sitting at sub 290 right now just a couple of weeks in and have to say that it's been easy. I am an absolute bustard when I am hungry, with this plan I am only hungry or start to feel hunger at meal times. I had been a six meal a day, typical bodybuilder, oats, chicken, rice, you get my point. I'm now eating my fats and protein in the daytime, my carbs in my last meal and am having basically three meals and a snack. My wife is also eating this way and her cravings have subsided. Her doctor told her Friday that she is gaining baby weight just as he wanted her to.

As far as training, I am now training fasted most days and have seen no ill effects. I do get my protein in post workout with a small bit of dextrose, but have really changed my way of thinking here. The days of 100-150g of dextrose post workout are gone, I don't need it. I am tighter, more vascular and can see abs again. At 290 pounds, I can see the top abs again. So believe me when I say this, Built knows what she is talking about.

If there is another fitness goal for the mainstream population in going to a gym and lifting weights and doing cardio other than to gain new muscle, improve body composition and improve cardiovascular efficiency then I admittedly have no idea what it is.

Built...in 15 years I have helped a lot of obese friends accomplish their goals. You have found something that works for you and that is great. It's not the only way.

Smaller more frequent meals spread throughout the day, maintain an appropraiate amount of clean protein in your diet and manage caloric intake by balancing the ratio of starchy vs fibrous carbs and isn't all that complicated. Doesn't require much micro management. Your experiences with fat lazy offseason fitness competitors isn't always the case either. I know what your saying...I have seen them all.

If you read this thread I assumed we were discussing bodybuilding. Guys that were talking about cutting, another guy was shocked that every bodybuilding article he ever read talked about reducing evening carbs, another guy was on a bulk. It was not just a discussion of someone that was obese leaning out.

I still think you have a hard time seperating your goals and your situation from those of a beginning bodybuilder. If you think intermttent fasting and all carbs before bed will be more effective for bodybuilders than bro-science....be my guest.

Coupling this with Internittent Fasting is a total win-win situation. I love eating potatoes at night. Fills me up and keeps me going on the latter part of the fast.

I'm sure she does Anabolic. You obviously ate differently to get to 300lbs at 17%. I'd hardly call that a failed nutritional plan. If you are eating differently now to improve your body composition I understand that. I never had the luxury to work with a lot of 300lb 17% beginner bodybuilders. Not sure they exist.

Originally Posted by Mavrik

If there is another fitness goal for the mainstream population in going to a gym and lifting weights and doing cardio other than to gain new muscle, improve body composition and improve cardiovascular efficiency then I admittedly have no idea what it is.

I'll answer your question: abs.

Most folks probably just want to look leaner and better-proportioned. If you don't know this, I'm very glad I'm not your client. Sorry.

Originally Posted by Mavrik

Built...in 15 years I have helped a lot of obese friends accomplish their goals. You have found something that works for you and that is great. It's not the only way.

Did I say this is the only way? I don't think I said that anywhere. I certainly feel this is the only way that is comfortable for me. The research supports it being more comfortable for most people. But some don't seem to mind the six meals thing. It doesn't matter - given sufficient protein and fat, your micronutrition and some resistance training, it's ultimately cals in, cals out.

Originally Posted by Mavrik

Smaller more frequent meals spread throughout the day, maintain an appropraiate amount of clean protein in your diet and manage caloric intake by balancing the ratio of starchy vs fibrous carbs and isn't all that complicated.

Okay, it might not be all that complicated - but it sure as hell ain't comfortable, at least not to me. If I had to eat carbs all day like this, and only in small meals, no less, I'd be in misery. Trust me, I'm a forty eight year old survivor of mainstream bro school guidelines. I've tried this. I could never stick to MAINTENANCE calories on this, much less a deficit. I got fatter and fatter because I simply cannot do "hungry" like this.

Originally Posted by Mavrik

Doesn't require much micro management.

Intermittent fasting requires even less management.

Originally Posted by Mavrik

Your experiences with fat lazy offseason fitness competitors isn't always the case either. I know what your saying...I have seen them all.

If you read this thread I assumed we were discussing bodybuilding.

We are, but not all of us compete.

Originally Posted by Mavrik

Guys that were talking about cutting, another guy was shocked that every bodybuilding article he ever read talked about reducing evening carbs, another guy was on a bulk. It was not just a discussion of someone that was obese leaning out.

Of course not. But the fact is, there are more than a few of us who either are, or who have been obese. Not necessarily MORBIDLY obese, but at least medically obese in the sense we needed to lose weight. I was about 40% bodyfat when I started about ten years ago.

Originally Posted by Mavrik

I still think you have a hard time seperating your goals and your situation from those of a beginning bodybuilder. If you think intermttent fasting and all carbs before bed will be more effective for bodybuilders than bro-science....be my guest.

Have you even READ Martin Berkhan's website, Mavrik?

No apologies needed....I'd love to hear how you get people leaner and better proportioned without, adding any new muscle, improving body composition or improving cardio vascular fitness.... You must have gotten a way better degree in exercise phys than i did. Or did you read that on a website?

Originally Posted by Mavrik

.... You must have gotten a way better degree in exercise phys than i did. Or did you read that on a website?

You REALLY dont want to do this. Really. Not a good idea to up against her.

Originally Posted by Mavrik

I'm sure she does Anabolic. You obviously ate differently to get to 300lbs at 17%. I'd hardly call that a failed nutritional plan. If you are eating differently now to improve your body composition I understand that. I never had the luxury to work with a lot of 300lb 17% beginner bodybuilders. Not sure they exist.

My previous plan was great with the goal of getting huge in mind. But dieting, fat loss, recomp, whatever you wanted to call it always caused me to be miserable. Hunger was my enemy, on Builts plan, that hunger doesn't exist. Imagine being hungry with a pregnant wife at home, it's rough. But even my wife is enjoying this way of eating, and that makes it easier on me.

Originally Posted by juggernaut

You REALLY dont want to do this. Really. Not a good idea to up against her.

Indeed



I'll shut up now and watch the fireworks!

Yup. Same here. MA is sharpening her talons for the kill.