Biggest protein myths debunked

**ThreeGigs** · 10-27-2011, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by Built

Thanks for that. I was thinking you might have taken some courses in physiology that explained specifically about proteases and enterocytes. Do you have formal training in these areas?

No, nothing more than the standard high school biology, and two college level human anatomy/physiology courses, but that was all 25 years ago. If you want to take some courses, MIT offers 'free' courses here:
Free Online Course Materials | MIT OpenCourseWare

I started my 'education' regarding diet back in August of last year. Then I discovered intermittent fasting, which made me do more research. Then, for my New Year's Resolutions, I decided on two things: I wanted the body back that I had when I was 18 years old, and I would try supplements (but no prohormones or AAs). A stupidly simple thing led me to dig really deep into protein metabolism. That was:

Whey is a fast protein. It's absorbed at 10 grams per hour.

And I thought to myself, "Holy crap, I've screwed myself with intermittent fasting! A six-hour eating window and 10 grams an hour meant I was only getting 60 grams of protein a day! And that's if I chowed down on whey, how 'fast' is meat protein? No wonder Martin of leangains dotcom fame recommends BCAAs, he HAS to or there's no way you could get enough protein!"

That's when I really dug in and researched the whole digestive process (did you know BCAAs are actually absorbed more slowly than whey or casein?). And I've been reading up on it ever since. So my education in that area is all self-taught, and only since January of this year (roughly about the time I joined these forums).

Sadly, I don't bookmark all the good stuff I find. I generally look for specific information, and when I find it I learn it and I'm done, although I generally DO try and cross-check my facts, since there's so much misinformation floating around on the web. The cool thing is that very often I find information I *wasn't* looking for, that happens to be useful, like about the speed of BCAAs. However I've found that some surprisingly simple questions can't be answered, or haven't been studied.

On a side note ive been trying to find more information on wnt7a protein stmulator or something like it and im having a hard time. You might be able to help???? Just a thought...

Ok, here's my methodology.
First stop, Wikipedia: WNT7A - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ok, looks like it's the name of a gene that controls a lot of female development, and is possibly tied to a tendency toward cancer. Seems to have a big influence on estrogen.

Scrolling down to the further reading section on Wikipedia, I saw this link:
Functional characterization of WNT7A signaling i... [J Biol Chem. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI
and this: Wnt-7a up-regulates matrix metalloproteinase-12 ... [J Biol Chem. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI

Ok, so there's this "WNT Family" of genes, which seem to control limb and some sex organ formation, and seem to be involved in some healing processes (makes sense, the body needs a pattern to grow back to), let's look at them.

Wnt signaling pathway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Interesting, seems they're involved in morphogenic signaling (how tissues become different at different places in the body). Ok, that confirms my idea on how they're involved in healing. But wound healing... and cell type differentiation... sounds like it might be involved in Type IIa/b muscle fiber differentiation and/or the growth process following microtrauma. Let's see what I can find.

Wheeee! Bingo!: MDA / Quest Extra / WNT7a Protein Boosts Muscle Repair

OK, a little more keyword searching yielded this article: Skeletal Muscle | Full text | The myogenic kinome: protein kinases critical to mammalian skeletal myogenesis

Ok, so without spending a week reading and researching, it looks like this is mainly associated with forming new parts of the body during fetal development, with some additional involvement in wound repair. It might be of interest to bodybuilders looking to stimulate faster recovery, however because it's linked to cancer genesis, I'd say it's something I personally probably wouldn't be too interested in. Activating genes when they aren't supposed to be can have some serious unintended consequences. Like if you thought gynecomastia was bad, how much worse would it be if you started growing a uterus, or wound up with male breast cancer. Then again, there might be no danger, I don't have enough knowledge of genomics to really make a good call, but better safe than sorry, I say.

**Built** · 10-28-2011, 01:41 AM

Thanks for this. I'll read thought it when I've taken my Dexedrine.

**diabloman** · 10-29-2011, 02:39 AM

Great Topic but I believe that proteins are hard to be digested

**ThreeGigs** · 10-29-2011, 04:10 PM

Here's a good link to an overview for you, Built:

The Digestive System

**Built** · 10-29-2011, 04:25 PM

ThreeGigs, thank you so much.

**ThreeGigs** · 10-29-2011, 04:37 PM

Wanted to edit the previous post, but here's another good slideshow showing enterocyte function steps in absorbing peptides:

http://w3.palmer.edu/nightingale/Doc...n%20111309.pdf

OK, so as not to make things longer, here's a book result you'd probably be interested in:
http://books.google.com/books?id=IfefIKuS8gQC

I'm trying to answer the question: should I add a dash of salt to my whey shake, since sodium is required for active transport of peptides.

**Built** · 10-29-2011, 04:42 PM

Most helpful - thanks!

**getbig808** · 10-30-2011, 07:11 PM

Thanks for all the input on this thread ive learned alot of very useful information.

**TooOld** · 11-08-2011, 05:29 AM

Layne Norton interviewed here: PodcastDirectory | Episode: The BodyRx Show # 015 - Natural Bodybuilder And Researcher Layne Norton Interviewed! Podcast

**zoco** · 11-09-2011, 07:37 AM

Great read man!

**Thee_One** · 11-09-2011, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by ThreeGigs

Whoa. Little rhyme or reason? Now c'mon. Trypsin and other proteases break protein down into peptides. Trypsin works by cleaving proteins at a lysine or arginine bond, other proteases cleave at different points. The first part of the small intestine has cells called enterocytes which are specialized absorbers. Some absorb only single amino acid molecules, some absorb di- and tri- peptides (2 or 3 aminos chained together). There is virtually NO absorption of chains of 4 or more peptides. Now, if a protein is 'conveniently' constructed, such that when the proteases act on it it gets broken down to 1, 2 and 3 amino-unit sections without much further processing needed (and doesn't need a protease which the body produces little of to break down further), it will be absorbed with good efficiency, and speed. All one really needs to know to get a general idea of whether a protein will be 'fast' or 'slow', and whether it'll be faster or slower than other proteins, is the order of amino acids in the protein, the folded structure or the protein, and which proteases (i.e. human, rat, etc.) will be acting on it. It's not an exact science because of the way proteins are folded, however it's a far cry from "little rhyme or reason".

Oh, and the reason RAW egg WHITE protein (albumen) was the slowest at 1.3 grams an hour? Because raw egg whites contain ovomucoids, which are trypsin inhibitors (I've posted in these forums about raw egg whites before). Inhibit trypsin and the proteins don't get broken down into units small enough to be absorbed.

Wait wait wait.

Are you arguing that egg whites are a poor source of protein?

That's a revelation.

**ThreeGigs** · 11-09-2011, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by Thee_One

Wait wait wait.

Are you arguing that egg whites are a poor source of protein?

That's a revelation.

Read some previous posts of mine here:
Eating A Dozen Eggs Per Day

and here:

can you eat too many egg whites?
and same thread a little lower: can you eat too many egg whites?

Some research numbers:
Egg white protein is absorbed at about 3.5 grams an hour. 24 hours in a day. If you ate nothing but cooked egg whites all day and all night, you'd absorb about 84 grams of protein. You decide if you like that number.

I'm continually confounded by the absorption rates of various proteins. I really have a hard time believing they're really *that low*. But until some more conclusive test results or research papers come along, I'm basing my conclusions only on the available data.

**Thee_One** · 11-10-2011, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by ThreeGigs

Read some previous posts of mine here:
Eating A Dozen Eggs Per Day

and here:

can you eat too many egg whites?
and same thread a little lower: can you eat too many egg whites?

Some research numbers:
Egg white protein is absorbed at about 3.5 grams an hour. 24 hours in a day. If you ate nothing but cooked egg whites all day and all night, you'd absorb about 84 grams of protein. You decide if you like that number.

I'm continually confounded by the absorption rates of various proteins. I really have a hard time believing they're really *that low*. But until some more conclusive test results or research papers come along, I'm basing my conclusions only on the available data.

That's really interesting. Thank you!

So hit me with some suggestions on better proteins.

Whey - good
Casein - ?
Chicken breast/Turkey breast - ?
beef (ground/steak does it matter?) - ?

Any help much appreciated.

**doohgk** · 11-10-2011, 12:58 PM

good thread

**ThreeGigs** · 11-10-2011, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by Thee_One

That's really interesting. Thank you!

So hit me with some suggestions on better proteins.

Whey - good
Casein - ?
Chicken breast/Turkey breast - ?
beef (ground/steak does it matter?) - ?

Any help much appreciated.

I *believe* that most meats are good. The only study I saw rated pork tenderloin at somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 grams an hour (but the methodology was a bit dodgy). Plus both whey and casein, milk and cheese seem the overall best. Soy gets a bad rap, but it's not all that bad either, although most plant proteins are generally rather slowly absorbed. Fish, of course.

One of these days, someone will do a good, comprehensive test of absorption rated of a wide range of proteins, and I have the feeling it'll set a lot of current advice (probably mine too) on its ear.

**Thee_One** · 11-11-2011, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by ThreeGigs

I *believe* that most meats are good. The only study I saw rated pork tenderloin at somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 grams an hour (but the methodology was a bit dodgy). Plus both whey and casein, milk and cheese seem the overall best. Soy gets a bad rap, but it's not all that bad either, although most plant proteins are generally rather slowly absorbed. Fish, of course.

One of these days, someone will do a good, comprehensive test of absorption rated of a wide range of proteins, and I have the feeling it'll set a lot of current advice (probably mine too) on its ear.

Yea, I did some searching on the web after reading your links and this thread.

Seems like most of the search results all linked back to just a couple of studies.

Seems like there were a lot of interested folks though. Seems to be the trend going on for this subject (protein absorption). So I wouldn't doubt it if you statement were correct.

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