Thread: nutrition check please

Originally Posted by AK49er

Hello everyone, I am 5 weeks into 10 week bulk cycle and have gained a lot of fat. I believe because i moved calories up too quickly weeks 1-5. So i am tweaking my diet a bit and need some input. I am 5' 8" and185 right now.

How much did you weigh five weeks ago?

500 grams of protein? Really? And I hope you're cooking those egg whites, don't trust pasteurization to render the ovomucoids in them inert.

My guess is you're feeling really, really bloated.

Originally Posted by Built

How much did you weigh five weeks ago?

I was 160 5 weeks ago

Originally Posted by ThreeGigs

500 grams of protein? Really? And I hope you're cooking those egg whites, don't trust pasteurization to render the ovomucoids in them inert.

My guess is you're feeling really, really bloated.

Yeah, I'm bloated. Retaining lots of water. The Cardio seems to help a little. I am cooking those egg whites. The high protien is an attempt to make sure that my body has enough protien to build and excess to convert to glycogen if needed since my carbs are low. I was hoping that my body would start to turn excess body fat into glycogen though.

Originally Posted by AK49er

Yeah, I'm bloated. Retaining lots of water. The Cardio seems to help a little. I am cooking those egg whites. The high protien is an attempt to make sure that my body has enough protien to build and excess to convert to glycogen if needed since my carbs are low. I was hoping that my body would start to turn excess body fat into glycogen though.

Your body cannot turn fat into glycogen.
If you use protein for energy, the body has to deaminate it, which produces urea, which is generally removed by the kidneys. But if you have impaired kidney function, you'll have a much higher level of blood urea than normal, one of the side effects of which is retaining water.
Also, since the body absorbs protein at a limited rate, a lot of that protein is probably making it to your lower intestine and feeding your gut bacteria, the net effect being a rather full bowel, and a potbellied-bloaty kind of feeling.

I'd replace 250 grams of protein with 100 grams of carbs, for starters. Also, your meal timing seems a bit too close together. In my reading and experience I've discovered that keeping a minimum length of time between meals improves the insulin response to each meal, which means better muscle uptake of nutrients. So carbs *and* protein with every meal. My time between meals seems to be optimal at 3 to 3.5 hours, yours may vary.

Way to much protein...

You just need 1.5g per pound max...

That's 277.5 at your weight... Also Threegigs has good advice about meal spacing...

When I bulk I always spread my meals 3 hours apart...

Some people have to do a slow bulk from a cut because their body is slow to get out of a starvation mode from cutting so it will add a lot of excess calories into fat...

Did you go from a major calorie deficit to a full bulk over night?... If you did this might be what is going on...

Research slow bulk and try that...

Also if you arn't lifting hard and heavy 8 reps untill fatigue, you arn't tearing enough muscle for your surplus to repair, so it might be adding it as fat...

Just A couple ideas of what might be the problem...

But the protein for sure is to high...

I agree - protein is too high. Calories too high in general - you gained 25 lbs in five weeks - that's five pounds a week. Your bodyfat went from 10% to 15% in this time; if this is indeed accurate, the following observations hold:

At 165, you carried 148.5 lbs lbm
At 180, you carry 153 lbs lbm

Translating: you gained 4.5 lbs lean mass and 20.5 lbs fat-mass in five weeks.

The muscle holds about 500-600 calories per pound - but of course requires more than that for its synthesis; I've read estimates at about 2200 per pound gained, but I may be on crack; the fat stores about 3500 calories per pound.

The muscle was welcome, but the fat was not. From the fat-gain alone, you overate 20.5 x 3500 = 71,750 too many calories over a five-week period. This works out to about 2000 calories a day more than you managed to translate into muscle.

Now you're eating 3500 calories a day, but 3500 is probably still quite a bit higher than maintenance for you. Most non-obese folk maintain on about 15 x their bodyweight in lbs, which for you would have been about 2400 calories a day when you started, and is probably now about 2700 calories a day. You're still running a significant surplus; I realize you're doing cardio now, but still.

Coleman probably doesn't gain more than 5 lbs LBM in a year anymore but gaining a pound of lean mass a week is reasonable on gear for a man your size who isn't yet huge.

Give the above info, your maintenance before you began was probably somewhere around 2400 calories a day, and you probably ate 4500 calories a day for five weeks. Your maintenance is probably now only about 2700 calories a day. 3500 may still be too high.

My .02

Originally Posted by ThreeGigs

Your body cannot turn fat into glycogen.
If you use protein for energy, the body has to deaminate it, which produces urea, which is generally removed by the kidneys. But if you have impaired kidney function, you'll have a much higher level of blood urea than normal, one of the side effects of which is retaining water.
Also, since the body absorbs protein at a limited rate, a lot of that protein is probably making it to your lower intestine and feeding your gut bacteria, the net effect being a rather full bowel, and a potbellied-bloaty kind of feeling.

I'd replace 250 grams of protein with 100 grams of carbs, for starters. Also, your meal timing seems a bit too close together. In my reading and experience I've discovered that keeping a minimum length of time between meals improves the insulin response to each meal, which means better muscle uptake of nutrients. So carbs *and* protein with every meal. My time between meals seems to be optimal at 3 to 3.5 hours, yours may vary.

Ok, I will try to replace some protien with carbs as you suggest. The meal spacing is close but that is my best option for at least the next few days then i will space it out, I work on a drilling rig in a remote area and as a result I don't have a ton of control over my break times and trying to squeeze in all my meals, workout, and still get 8 hrs. sleep while working 12 hrs. day. But I have 4 weeks off coming up and will space my meals out. I was under the impression that carbs in the morning and closer to pre and post workout was best for nutrient timing ? Is this not the case..

Originally Posted by ExLe

Way to much protein...

You just need 1.5g per pound max...

That's 277.5 at your weight... Also Threegigs has good advice about meal spacing...

When I bulk I always spread my meals 3 hours apart...

Some people have to do a slow bulk from a cut because their body is slow to get out of a starvation mode from cutting so it will add a lot of excess calories into fat...

Did you go from a major calorie deficit to a full bulk over night?... If you did this might be what is going on...

Research slow bulk and try that...

Also if you arn't lifting hard and heavy 8 reps untill fatigue, you arn't tearing enough muscle for your surplus to repair, so it might be adding it as fat...

Just A couple ideas of what might be the problem...

But the protein for sure is to high...

I was calorie deficit, but that's what I meant when i said I uped my calories too soon I started eating 500 above maintenance about 3 weeks before I started cycle then went 1000 over maintenance starting week one of cycle. Which I now think was too soon for long ester cycle. I feel I am lifting hard and heavy. I am increasing weight on all lifts every week, I am also mixing it up from 4 sets of 7 one week to 3 sets of 15 pre exhaust. followed by 1 set each exercise 4 sec. negatives followed by 3 sets of drop sets. weeks 2 then weeks 3 is 3 sets 12 reps. weeks 4 is 4 sets of 20 until failure each exercise.

Originally Posted by Built

I agree - protein is too high. Calories too high in general - you gained 25 lbs in five weeks - that's five pounds a week. Your bodyfat went from 10% to 15% in this time; if this is indeed accurate, the following observations hold:

At 165, you carried 148.5 lbs lbm
At 180, you carry 153 lbs lbm

Translating: you gained 4.5 lbs lean mass and 20.5 lbs fat-mass in five weeks.

The muscle holds about 500-600 calories per pound - but of course requires more than that for its synthesis; I've read estimates at about 2200 per pound gained, but I may be on crack; the fat stores about 3500 calories per pound.

The muscle was welcome, but the fat was not. From the fat-gain alone, you overate 20.5 x 3500 = 71,750 too many calories over a five-week period. This works out to about 2000 calories a day more than you managed to translate into muscle.

Now you're eating 3500 calories a day, but 3500 is probably still quite a bit higher than maintenance for you. Most non-obese folk maintain on about 15 x their bodyweight in lbs, which for you would have been about 2400 calories a day when you started, and is probably now about 2700 calories a day. You're still running a significant surplus; I realize you're doing cardio now, but still.

Coleman probably doesn't gain more than 5 lbs LBM in a year anymore but gaining a pound of lean mass a week is reasonable on gear for a man your size who isn't yet huge.

Give the above info, your maintenance before you began was probably somewhere around 2400 calories a day, and you probably ate 4500 calories a day for five weeks. Your maintenance is probably now only about 2700 calories a day. 3500 may still be too high.

My .02

Hey bud, that is good stuff, thanks for all of the info. you are right on, my maintenance now is about 2700, I am going to lower protien and up carbs. but having said that and 3500 still being too high what would you suggest for getting this diet turned around in my favor and still be able to gain some mass on the remainder of my cycle, and keep fat gain in check ? I am probably going to extend cycle to 12 weeks instead of 10. I would really appreciate a daily calorie recommendation for my situation, and I'm assuming a 40/40/20 or would you recommend something else givin my situation.

Okay - a few things to start with. One is your calories - you and I both figure your maintenance is about 2700, and you got juicy fast, right? I'd drop down to 2700 for a week or two, train hard and well, then creep the calories up to about 3000-3200 for the remainder of your cycle.

Doing cardio to offset fat-gain is just plain stupid - the body doesn't work that way. However, a little strategic cardio will enhance your partitioning, so you could plan to do a bit of modest cardio after one of your carby meals (read: go for a half-hour walk after lunch or dinner) and it'll help improve nutrient uptake while reducing insulin output - which means the working muscles get the goodies rather than fat cells.

Recall you don't need much of a surplus to gain muscle. A pound of extra-lean beef only provides about 500-600 calories. You'll need to invest more than 500 calories in order to make this pound of muscle - as I mentioned earlier, I've read estimates that it's about 2200 calories to gain a pound of muscle but gear improves feed efficiency and you may need even fewer than this to gain a pound of muscle on gear. 2200 calories / 7 days is about an extra 300 calories a day, so you really don't need much of a surplus. You're a bit fat now, and you don't want to get fatter, so I'd try the approach I outlined above and see where it takes you.

Regarding percentages, I really ignore those. Feed yourself at least a gram of protein per pound lean mass, about a half a gram of fat per pound lean mass (this can be lower if you're on gear since you inject your endocrine system; off gear, you need your fats and half a gram per pound lean mass is, in my opinion, minimal for fat intake) and fill up the rest of your calories from carb.

For you, this means approximately the following:
150-200g protein (600-800 calories)
75g fat (675 calories)
300+g carb (1200+ calories)
approximately 2700 calories

When you increase your calories to 3200 in a few weeks, you could bring up just the carbs, or the carbs and some of the protein, but there's seriously no need to bring your protein up higher than 225-250g daily, not while bulking.

Cutting's a different matter. Cutting, you'll likely feel better and respond better on 1.5g to 2g protein per pound lean mass (ie 225g-300g daily). On a cut, you risk losing muscle and extra protein protects you from both muscle-loss, and hunger! Protein's satiating. But bulking - up the carbs for the extra calories.

You could do AM carbs followed by modest physical activity (ie the walking mentioned above), and pre and post workout carbs for the remainder if you like. Or spread 'em out, but eat the "fastest" carbs post-workout, an option that may be more practical for you given the nature of your work.

How does this sound - do-able?

Originally Posted by Built

Okay - a few things to start with. One is your calories - you and I both figure your maintenance is about 2700, and you got juicy fast, right? I'd drop down to 2700 for a week or two, train hard and well, then creep the calories up to about 3000-3200 for the remainder of your cycle.

Doing cardio to offset fat-gain is just plain stupid - the body doesn't work that way. However, a little strategic cardio will enhance your partitioning, so you could plan to do a bit of modest cardio after one of your carby meals (read: go for a half-hour walk after lunch or dinner) and it'll help improve nutrient uptake while reducing insulin output - which means the working muscles get the goodies rather than fat cells.

Recall you don't need much of a surplus to gain muscle. A pound of extra-lean beef only provides about 500-600 calories. You'll need to invest more than 500 calories in order to make this pound of muscle - as I mentioned earlier, I've read estimates that it's about 2200 calories to gain a pound of muscle but gear improves feed efficiency and you may need even fewer than this to gain a pound of muscle on gear. 2200 calories / 7 days is about an extra 300 calories a day, so you really don't need much of a surplus. You're a bit fat now, and you don't want to get fatter, so I'd try the approach I outlined above and see where it takes you.

Regarding percentages, I really ignore those. Feed yourself at least a gram of protein per pound lean mass, about a half a gram of fat per pound lean mass (this can be lower if you're on gear since you inject your endocrine system; off gear, you need your fats and half a gram per pound lean mass is, in my opinion, minimal for fat intake) and fill up the rest of your calories from carb.

For you, this means approximately the following:
150-200g protein (600-800 calories)
75g fat (675 calories)
300+g carb (1200+ calories)
approximately 2700 calories

When you increase your calories to 3200 in a few weeks, you could bring up just the carbs, or the carbs and some of the protein, but there's seriously no need to bring your protein up higher than 225-250g daily, not while bulking.

Cutting's a different matter. Cutting, you'll likely feel better and respond better on 1.5g to 2g protein per pound lean mass (ie 225g-300g daily). On a cut, you risk losing muscle and extra protein protects you from both muscle-loss, and hunger! Protein's satiating. But bulking - up the carbs for the extra calories.

You could do AM carbs followed by modest physical activity (ie the walking mentioned above), and pre and post workout carbs for the remainder if you like. Or spread 'em out, but eat the "fastest" carbs post-workout, an option that may be more practical for you given the nature of your work.

How does this sound - do-able?

Sounds great, I am starting today with new plan and will update post to let you know how it goes. Thanks for all of your input knowledge and time.

Every Person Main Problem Fact in Fast Food:So Iam given Calaries lIST

1. Burger King DOUBLE WHOPPER Sandwich with Cheese
   Calories: 990
2. Sonic Chocolate Cream Pie Shake - Large (20 oz)
   Calories: 990
3. Dairy Queen Large Strawberry CheeseQuake Blizzard
   Calories: 990
4. White Castle Vanilla Shake - Large (New York region)
   Calories: 990
5. Wendy's Triple w/Everything and Cheese
   Calories: 980
6. Sonic Super Sonic Cheeseburger (with mayo)
   Calories: 980
7. Hardee's Big Country Breakfast Platter - Bacon
   Calories: 980
8. White Castle Onion Chips - Sack
   Calories: 980
9. Carl's Jr. Double Western Bacon Cheeseburger
   Calories: 970
10. Hardee's Big Country Breakfast Platter - Country Ham
    Calories: 970
11. Arby's Sausage Gravy Biscuit
    Calories: 961
12. Burger King OREO Sundae Shake - Chocolate - Medium
    Calories: 960
13. Burger King Chocolate Milk Shake - Large
    Calories: 950
14. White Castle Chocolate Shake - Large (St Louis region)
    Calories: 950
15. Jack In The Box Sourdough Ultimate Cheeseburger
    Calories: 950
16. Nathan's Chicken Breast Platter
    Calories: 943
17. Boston Market Boston Meatloaf Carver
    Calories: 940
18. Sonic FRITOS Chili Pie
    Calories: 940
19. Sonic Peanut Butter Fudge Shake-Large (20oz)
    Calories: 940
20. Burger King OREO Sundae Shake - Strawberry - Medium
    Calories: 940
21. White Castle Vanilla Shake - Large (Minneapolis region)
    Calories: 940
22. Carl's Jr. Super Star (with cheese)
    Calories: 930

So it has been a week since i dropped down to 2700 per day and i have seen and felt a little improvement, not as bloated all the time. But i feel my gains have suffered as well, as i have lost weight. So i will continue for the next week at the 2700 then move them back up to 3000 and see where that takes me.

If you're down more than a pound, you've dropped glycogen and poo. Track your weight and your calories daily for a while. You'll be able to find the sweet spot that way.