Alcohol & Fat Burning

w8lifter · 03-15-2003, 03:50 PM

Why alcohol calories aren't as important as most people think...

According to conventional wisdom, the infamous "beer belly" is caused by excess alcohol calories being stored as fat.

However, researchers from the University of California have shown that less than 5% of the alcohol calories you drink are turned into fat. Rather, the main effect of alcohol is to reduce the amount of fat your body burns for energy.

Alcohol calories
Successful weight loss is all about oxidizing (or burning), more calories than you eat. When they go on a diet, many people choose low-calorie alcoholic drinks, mainly because they contain fewer alcohol calories than their regular counterparts.

However, this recent study, published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, shows that even a very small amount of alcohol has a large impact on fat metabolism.

Eight men were given two drinks of vodka and lemonade separated by 30 minutes. Each drink contained just under 90 calories. Fat metabolism was measured before and after consumption of the drink. For several hours after drinking the vodka, whole body lipid oxidation (a measure of how much fat your body is burning) dropped by a massive 73%.

Rather than getting stored as fat, the main fate of alcohol is conversion into a substance called acetate. In fact, blood levels of acetate after drinking the vodka were 2.5 times higher than normal. And it appears this sharp rise in acetate puts the brakes on fat loss.

A car engine typically uses only one source of fuel. Your body, on the other hand, draws from a number of different energy sources, such as carbohydrate, fat, and protein. To a certain extent, the source of fuel your body uses is dictated by its availability.

In other words, your body tends to use whatever you feed it. Consequently, when acetate levels rise, your body simply burns more acetate, and less fat. In essence, acetate pushes fat to the back of the queue.

So, to summarize and review, here's what happens to fat metabolism after the odd drink or two.

• A small portion of the alcohol is converted into fat.

• Your liver then converts most of the alcohol into acetate.

• The acetate is then released into your bloodstream, and replaces fat as a source of fuel.

Your bodies' response to alcohol is very similar to the way it deals with excess carbohydrate. Although carbohydrate can be converted directly into fat, one of the main effects of overfeeding with carbohydrate is that it simply replaces fat as a source of energy. That's why any type of diet, whether it's high-fat, high-protein, or high-carbohydrate, can lead to a gain in weight.

The bottom line is that even a small amount of alcohol (this study used two servings of vodka and lemonade) can have a big impact on the rate at which your body burns fat — even if the drink is low in calories.

Reference
Siler, S.Q., Neese, R.A., & Hellerstein, M.K. (1999). De novo lipogenesis, lipid kinetics, and whole-body lipid balances in humans after acute alcohol consumption. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 70, 928-936

http://thefactsaboutfitness.com/research/alcohol.htm

Dr. Pain · 03-15-2003, 03:52 PM

DP

Robboe · 03-15-2003, 08:26 PM

This is basic 101. What encouraged you to post it? I'd expect everyone to already know it.

Alcohol is a toxin to the body. But since it has a calorie breakdown, when you drink, your body quits fat/carb burning and focuses it's effort towards alcohol metabolism. Most of what you eat on top gets put to one side while your body rids itself of the toxin - i.e. gets stored as fat.

So now you know why the tubby bastards in the chippy after hours are so tubby.

**Prince** · 03-15-2003, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
This is basic 101. What encouraged you to post it? I'd expect everyone to already know it.

so, you do not think new members join here and are still learning the basics?

w8lifter · 03-15-2003, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
This is basic 101. What encouraged you to post it? I'd expect everyone to already know it.

To see if you'd respond

...and it's basic to you....but not everyone knows as much as you, now do they Chicken Baby

**Mudge** · 03-16-2003, 12:54 AM

I sure didn't know, but I dont study beer as you have TCD.

Robboe · 03-16-2003, 08:34 AM

I have posted about the effects of beer on numerous occasions on these forums.

w8lifter · 03-16-2003, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
I have posted about the effects of beer on numerous occasions on these forums.

I know you have, but I thought this article would be good to post anyway...to refer newbies to since you're posts are all over the place and hard to search specifically. It is a good, easy to understand explanation.

Robboe · 03-16-2003, 08:57 AM

I couldn't half do with a vodka and coke.

Pepper · 03-16-2003, 09:18 AM

Repeat or not, I certainly appreciate it.

Sometimes it takes numerous times to sink in. For example, I learned a tremendous amount by reading OG diary, as did my wife. By the end of it, I found my self repeating your answers.

This stuff is not as easy when you are new to it, it can be damn confusing especially as you are learning the points of view of the different posters.

Anyway, thanks for in the info W8.

Dr. Pain · 03-16-2003, 09:27 AM

I knew it...and it hit me hard too....I think it's definitely going to curtail my consumption...if not stop it altogether.

I don't try (try is not the right word) to stay cut 24/365.....because my discipline and lifestyle (kind of what we profess here) keeps me in a range......but it's so annoying not to be "as" you want to be......and I think if little insignificant things like alcohol (sweetners for some) and possibly coffee are keeping me from what I want.......then there is no reason why I can't drop them and find out!

Thanks Leah......now I have to find a new way to control excess stress, lol....

DP

Robboe · 03-16-2003, 10:43 AM

It's certainly a trade off, but most can still get away with one night of drinking a week without hindering gains too much, or disrupting a cut too badly.

If you have a specific goal, such as a certain bodyfat % by a certain date, or a competiton, then your mentality should be refocused temporarily.

**Prince** · 03-16-2003, 10:46 AM

are we talking one night of getting really drunk, or just drinking a couple of beers?

Robboe · 03-16-2003, 10:49 AM

A night of getting totally ratted tends to spill over to the next day re: alcohol metabolism, and can really mess with workouts.

But it can be fun, too.

**Prince** · 03-16-2003, 10:54 AM

well, getting really drunk one night per week is not wise if you're serious about bodybuilding, but if you're young and in college go for it!

Robboe · 03-16-2003, 10:58 AM

I wouldn't say that personally.

But i do this for a hobby and not for life. But it's all personal preference, and i'm certainly not gonna lecture you or anyone else on the balance between life and lifting.

But i will say that by the time i'm 50 years old and i look back on all the opportunities to have fun and enjoy myself with my friends but i never took them because i was busy resting up for leg day or i was cutting etc... I'd be very disappointed.

**Prince** · 03-16-2003, 11:02 AM

I would if you like to drink. I was serious about lifting in college, but I still went out almost every weekend and drank and had fun.

If I wouldn't have I would probably regret that now.

Robboe · 03-16-2003, 11:11 AM

Exactly.

I hope others don't make the mistake you avoided.

**Mudge** · 03-16-2003, 06:35 PM

Getting plastered is not my idea of a good time, I did my drinking in high school, by the time I was 19 or so I didn't give a hoot about alcohol, it became a once in a while thing. We all enjoy different things in life, but if someone enjoys getting trashed, it makes me wonder about thier mental health.

Var · 03-19-2003, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mudge
Getting plastered is not my idea of a good time, I did my drinking in high school, by the time I was 19 or so I didn't give a hoot about alcohol, it became a once in a while thing. We all enjoy different things in life, but if someone enjoys getting trashed, it makes me wonder about thier mental health.

It's not so much about "getting plastered" as it is about making memories with your friends. (I think a tear is coming to my eye) Sure you can do this without drinking. But there's just something about sitting in a pub with a bunch of buds, throwing darts or shooting pool, and having a good time. I wouldn't trade those experiences for a physique like Arnold.

Monolith · 03-19-2003, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Var
It's not so much about "getting plastered" as it is about making memories with your friends. (I think a tear is coming to my eye) Sure you can do this without drinking. But there's just something about sitting in a pub with a bunch of buds, throwing darts or shooting pool, and having a good time. I wouldn't trade those experiences for a physique like Arnold.

best post

by the way... how long does this slower fat burning response last? until your bloodstream is clear of alcohol, or does it last longer?

Dr. Pain · 03-19-2003, 08:19 PM

In some people....forever!

.....j/k

Monolith · 03-19-2003, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Pain
In some people....forever!

.....j/k

well hey... in that case...

Robboe · 03-20-2003, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Monolith
best post

by the way... how long does this slower fat burning response last? until your bloodstream is clear of alcohol, or does it last longer?

A lot of factors to determine this, but while alcohol is still present in your bloodstream, then don't expect to be making much progress regarding fat burning.

tidalwaverus · 03-20-2003, 10:26 AM

very good post ,I have noticed every time I have a drink it takes days 2 recover getting trashed could take a week.

My wt. always goes up 2-3 lbs. the next day every time. I feel it
if I drank every weekend I don't think I would get anywhere.

But I'm not 20 yrs old either.

Mifody · 03-21-2003, 05:12 AM

thanks for the info. i knew it was bad for fat burning or getting fat, but i didnt know exactly why. how does your body use acetate for fuel instead of fat. what is acetate?.. some kind of carb.. i dunno. i wouldnt call it a basic post, maybe the idea of alcohol = fat.. yeah, but the whole explanation. i dunno, guess i'm still a newbie.

got any more info on how it affects protein synthesis? guess i could just search.. blah

Robboe · 03-21-2003, 07:56 AM

It has calories, so your body metabolises it. It's quite an easy way of ridding the body of toxins.

Alcohol retards protein synthesis. Doesn't stop it completely, but reduces it.

cornfed · 03-21-2003, 10:12 AM

? ...
Anyone happen to have a link or info as to the caloric/macro breakdown of common alcoholic beverages or do I have to bust my lazy ass looking?

RikkiHoon · 03-15-2005, 12:39 AM

Hey,

I've been looking for some decent info. about alcohol vs. fat burn, but found it difficult to find any 'non-scientific' information, until I read this thread. I'm a newbie and wasn't really sure about how much alcohol reduces the body's fat loss mechanism. I'm a red-blooded Englishman who loves the pub, but I am certainly willingly to sacrifice most 'nights on the tiles' for the sake of a healthier stronger body. I'm also glad to hear that a few bevvies with the lads once a week will still be OK!!!

There are still a few newbies here who REALLY appreciate the basics.

Thanks.

joesmooth20 · 03-15-2005, 02:48 AM

I drink too much when I go out to the bars it seems like. I always have a great time
though but the next day is horrid and can hardly do crap at the gym. This is why I am
cutting it totally out of my lifestyle while i'm in a cutting phase. I will tell ya it's been
8days and I'm already bored and really wanna go out. I am a single 22yrold in a beach/party town so it kinda comes with the territory. i guess I could go out and not
drink but then i'm gonna get the "how come your not drinking" and all that noise.

Good info though, thanks

03-15-2003, 03:50 PM	#1
w8lifter Join Date: May 2001 Location: Around..... Posts: 14,964	Alcohol & Fat Burning Why alcohol calories aren't as important as most people think... According to conventional wisdom, the infamous "beer belly" is caused by excess alcohol calories being stored as fat. However, researchers from the University of California have shown that less than 5% of the alcohol calories you drink are turned into fat. Rather, the main effect of alcohol is to reduce the amount of fat your body burns for energy. Alcohol calories Successful weight loss is all about oxidizing (or burning), more calories than you eat. When they go on a diet, many people choose low-calorie alcoholic drinks, mainly because they contain fewer alcohol calories than their regular counterparts. However, this recent study, published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, shows that even a very small amount of alcohol has a large impact on fat metabolism. Eight men were given two drinks of vodka and lemonade separated by 30 minutes. Each drink contained just under 90 calories. Fat metabolism was measured before and after consumption of the drink. For several hours after drinking the vodka, whole body lipid oxidation (a measure of how much fat your body is burning) dropped by a massive 73%. Rather than getting stored as fat, the main fate of alcohol is conversion into a substance called acetate. In fact, blood levels of acetate after drinking the vodka were 2.5 times higher than normal. And it appears this sharp rise in acetate puts the brakes on fat loss. A car engine typically uses only one source of fuel. Your body, on the other hand, draws from a number of different energy sources, such as carbohydrate, fat, and protein. To a certain extent, the source of fuel your body uses is dictated by its availability. In other words, your body tends to use whatever you feed it. Consequently, when acetate levels rise, your body simply burns more acetate, and less fat. In essence, acetate pushes fat to the back of the queue. So, to summarize and review, here's what happens to fat metabolism after the odd drink or two. • A small portion of the alcohol is converted into fat. • Your liver then converts most of the alcohol into acetate. • The acetate is then released into your bloodstream, and replaces fat as a source of fuel. Your bodies' response to alcohol is very similar to the way it deals with excess carbohydrate. Although carbohydrate can be converted directly into fat, one of the main effects of overfeeding with carbohydrate is that it simply replaces fat as a source of energy. That's why any type of diet, whether it's high-fat, high-protein, or high-carbohydrate, can lead to a gain in weight. The bottom line is that even a small amount of alcohol (this study used two servings of vodka and lemonade) can have a big impact on the rate at which your body burns fat — even if the drink is low in calories. Reference Siler, S.Q., Neese, R.A., & Hellerstein, M.K. (1999). De novo lipogenesis, lipid kinetics, and whole-body lipid balances in humans after acute alcohol consumption. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 70, 928-936 http://thefactsaboutfitness.com/research/alcohol.htm

03-15-2003, 08:26 PM	#3
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,141	This is basic 101. What encouraged you to post it? I'd expect everyone to already know it. Alcohol is a toxin to the body. But since it has a calorie breakdown, when you drink, your body quits fat/carb burning and focuses it's effort towards alcohol metabolism. Most of what you eat on top gets put to one side while your body rids itself of the toxin - i.e. gets stored as fat. So now you know why the tubby bastards in the chippy after hours are so tubby. Being held down by The Man

03-16-2003, 12:54 AM	#6
Mudge Dieting I swear! Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Here Posts: 23,474 Photos: 1	I sure didn't know, but I dont study beer as you have TCD. Kinesiology Comp Bench MaxCalc Motivation Bench form Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu

03-16-2003, 08:34 AM	#7
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,141	I have posted about the effects of beer on numerous occasions on these forums. Being held down by The Man

03-16-2003, 08:57 AM	#9
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,141	I couldn't half do with a vodka and coke. Being held down by The Man

03-15-2003, 03:52 PM	#2
Dr. Pain Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Get the Duct Tape...I'm Ripped Again! Posts: 11,239	DP

03-16-2003, 09:18 AM	#10
Pepper Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 4,543	Repeat or not, I certainly appreciate it. Sometimes it takes numerous times to sink in. For example, I learned a tremendous amount by reading OG diary, as did my wife. By the end of it, I found my self repeating your answers. This stuff is not as easy when you are new to it, it can be damn confusing especially as you are learning the points of view of the different posters. Anyway, thanks for in the info W8. My Carb Cycling Progress - you can't hide from the numbers.

03-16-2003, 09:27 AM	#11
Dr. Pain Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Get the Duct Tape...I'm Ripped Again! Posts: 11,239	I knew it...and it hit me hard too....I think it's definitely going to curtail my consumption...if not stop it altogether. I don't try (try is not the right word) to stay cut 24/365.....because my discipline and lifestyle (kind of what we profess here) keeps me in a range......but it's so annoying not to be "as" you want to be......and I think if little insignificant things like alcohol (sweetners for some) and possibly coffee are keeping me from what I want.......then there is no reason why I can't drop them and find out! Thanks Leah......now I have to find a new way to control excess stress, lol.... DP

03-16-2003, 10:43 AM	#12
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,141	It's certainly a trade off, but most can still get away with one night of drinking a week without hindering gains too much, or disrupting a cut too badly. If you have a specific goal, such as a certain bodyfat % by a certain date, or a competiton, then your mentality should be refocused temporarily. Being held down by The Man

03-16-2003, 10:46 AM	#13
Prince IronMagLabs Owner Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 37,395 Photos: 356	are we talking one night of getting really drunk, or just drinking a couple of beers? BOARD SPONSORS: MassNutrition.com - Discount Supplement Superstore IronMagLabs.com - Bodybuilding Nutrition AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders & Supplements CEMProducts.com - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclesProd.com - Steroids, Bodybuilding & Training Blog Maximizer.com - Maximum Strength for Maximum Performance MikeGetsRipped.com - The Original 'Get Ripped' Blog ProteinRoutine.com - Experiments in Healthy Living Follow on Twitter Join Facebook Group Befriend on Myspace

03-16-2003, 10:49 AM	#14
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,141	A night of getting totally ratted tends to spill over to the next day re: alcohol metabolism, and can really mess with workouts. But it can be fun, too. Being held down by The Man

03-16-2003, 10:54 AM	#15
Prince IronMagLabs Owner Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 37,395 Photos: 356	well, getting really drunk one night per week is not wise if you're serious about bodybuilding, but if you're young and in college go for it! BOARD SPONSORS: MassNutrition.com - Discount Supplement Superstore IronMagLabs.com - Bodybuilding Nutrition AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders & Supplements CEMProducts.com - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclesProd.com - Steroids, Bodybuilding & Training Blog Maximizer.com - Maximum Strength for Maximum Performance MikeGetsRipped.com - The Original 'Get Ripped' Blog ProteinRoutine.com - Experiments in Healthy Living Follow on Twitter Join Facebook Group Befriend on Myspace

03-16-2003, 10:58 AM	#16
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,141	I wouldn't say that personally. But i do this for a hobby and not for life. But it's all personal preference, and i'm certainly not gonna lecture you or anyone else on the balance between life and lifting. But i will say that by the time i'm 50 years old and i look back on all the opportunities to have fun and enjoy myself with my friends but i never took them because i was busy resting up for leg day or i was cutting etc... I'd be very disappointed. Being held down by The Man

03-16-2003, 11:02 AM	#17
Prince IronMagLabs Owner Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 37,395 Photos: 356	I would if you like to drink. I was serious about lifting in college, but I still went out almost every weekend and drank and had fun. If I wouldn't have I would probably regret that now. BOARD SPONSORS: MassNutrition.com - Discount Supplement Superstore IronMagLabs.com - Bodybuilding Nutrition AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders & Supplements CEMProducts.com - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclesProd.com - Steroids, Bodybuilding & Training Blog Maximizer.com - Maximum Strength for Maximum Performance MikeGetsRipped.com - The Original 'Get Ripped' Blog ProteinRoutine.com - Experiments in Healthy Living Follow on Twitter Join Facebook Group Befriend on Myspace

03-16-2003, 11:11 AM	#18
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,141	Exactly. I hope others don't make the mistake you avoided. Being held down by The Man

03-16-2003, 06:35 PM	#19
Mudge Dieting I swear! Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Here Posts: 23,474 Photos: 1	Getting plastered is not my idea of a good time, I did my drinking in high school, by the time I was 19 or so I didn't give a hoot about alcohol, it became a once in a while thing. We all enjoy different things in life, but if someone enjoys getting trashed, it makes me wonder about thier mental health. Kinesiology Comp Bench MaxCalc Motivation Bench form Charles Poliquin When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. Lao-Tzu

03-19-2003, 08:19 PM	#22
Dr. Pain Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Get the Duct Tape...I'm Ripped Again! Posts: 11,239	In some people....forever! .....j/k

03-20-2003, 10:26 AM	#25
tidalwaverus Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 237	very good post ,I have noticed every time I have a drink it takes days 2 recover getting trashed could take a week. My wt. always goes up 2-3 lbs. the next day every time. I feel it if I drank every weekend I don't think I would get anywhere. But I'm not 20 yrs old either. Ya never know

03-21-2003, 05:12 AM	#26
Mifody Member Elite Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: . Posts: 175	thanks for the info. i knew it was bad for fat burning or getting fat, but i didnt know exactly why. how does your body use acetate for fuel instead of fat. what is acetate?.. some kind of carb.. i dunno. i wouldnt call it a basic post, maybe the idea of alcohol = fat.. yeah, but the whole explanation. i dunno, guess i'm still a newbie. got any more info on how it affects protein synthesis? guess i could just search.. blah

03-21-2003, 07:56 AM	#27
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,141	It has calories, so your body metabolises it. It's quite an easy way of ridding the body of toxins. Alcohol retards protein synthesis. Doesn't stop it completely, but reduces it. Being held down by The Man

03-21-2003, 10:12 AM	#28
cornfed Sweet 'lil Innocent Mod Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: serenity now insanity later Posts: 1,802	? ... Anyone happen to have a link or info as to the caloric/macro breakdown of common alcoholic beverages or do I have to bust my lazy ass looking? - "If I ever run into Dave Grohl, I'm gonna kick his fuqqin' ass... because he sucks and he wrote this cheese-dick song for Ozzy that I have to fuqqin' play on and I'll never forgive him for that. Foo Fighters is a fuqqin' candy-ass girl band but you've got that mother-fuqqer submitting songs [for the album], and those douchebags from the Offspring, too." "...Dave Grohl? Fuq Dave Grohl! ...you're getting this guy to write songs for Ozzy? Just because he played drums for fuqqing Sh!tvana?" --- Zakk Wylde --- ---Dimebag Darrel RIP---

03-15-2005, 12:39 AM	#29
RikkiHoon Registered User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Bangkok, Thailand Posts: 59	Hey, I've been looking for some decent info. about alcohol vs. fat burn, but found it difficult to find any 'non-scientific' information, until I read this thread. I'm a newbie and wasn't really sure about how much alcohol reduces the body's fat loss mechanism. I'm a red-blooded Englishman who loves the pub, but I am certainly willingly to sacrifice most 'nights on the tiles' for the sake of a healthier stronger body. I'm also glad to hear that a few bevvies with the lads once a week will still be OK!!! There are still a few newbies here who REALLY appreciate the basics. Thanks. RikkiHoon

03-15-2005, 02:48 AM	#30
joesmooth20 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Wilmington, nc Posts: 1,068	I drink too much when I go out to the bars it seems like. I always have a great time though but the next day is horrid and can hardly do crap at the gym. This is why I am cutting it totally out of my lifestyle while i'm in a cutting phase. I will tell ya it's been 8days and I'm already bored and really wanna go out. I am a single 22yrold in a beach/party town so it kinda comes with the territory. i guess I could go out and not drink but then i'm gonna get the "how come your not drinking" and all that noise. Good info though, thanks

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Axis Labs® Adipo-X™ Writeup	Newlife4me	Axis Labs	0	01-03-2008 03:18 PM
Targex - The Ultimate Topical Fat Burner!	ag-guys	Anabolic Zone	65	09-06-2006 02:53 AM
Is 15-20mins of light-moderat cardio on rest days bad if in a toning period?	Johnnny	Training	97	10-28-2005 02:22 PM
The Zigzag Diet	garo	Diet & Nutrition	2	01-10-2004 04:45 PM
The NHE and ONE - cut and bulk	Robboe	Online Journals	567	08-13-2003 07:28 PM