Gradually consume..

**Julie7Ulie** · 07-07-2003, 01:37 PM

This question is not exactly for me, but for what people have been asking me. - hope this makes sense

When someone is cutting (or bulking), they cut out certain foods to change their lifestyle, and reach their goals.

But is there a way to slowly incorporate "forbidden" foods in moderation back into the diet? (For balance, or pleasure, or maybe just to be able to eat whatever and not set up for failure).

Like for example, in the milk thread, if someone has cut out milk entirely from the diet, and has already reached their goal, how can they incorporate drinking milk again without gaining back the unwanted weight/fat?

This goes for anything (bread, sugar, pasta, etc..).

??

**Jodi** · 07-07-2003, 01:44 PM

Once you've reached your goal and want to maintain you can add these things back into your diet within the maintenance caloric restriction. You don't have to say good bye to these things forever. You will learn and experiment with foods once you start maintaining to find out what keeps you where you want to be.

Cutting is exactly that, you have to restrict and get rid of foods temporarily to get to reach your desired goal. Bulking you can get away with more.

**Mudge** · 07-07-2003, 01:47 PM

Cheat meal, or cheat days, are common.

**Julie7Ulie** · 07-07-2003, 01:47 PM

I have a friend on a plan (I think it looks a lot like the Atkins diet).

And she is afraid that when she is finished with the diet, she would gain the weight back if she starts consuming breads and pastas again.

I thought it might too.. so I thought Id check here..

**Julie7Ulie** · 07-07-2003, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by Mudge
Cheat meal, or cheat days, are common.

But to incorporate them not as cheats, but as normal food you eat whenever you want..

**Jodi** · 07-07-2003, 01:48 PM

Well, you do have to be careful and don't jump right into eating all those foods again or you will gain weight. You have to slowly add things back in and learn what works for you and what doesn't

**Julie7Ulie** · 07-07-2003, 01:50 PM

Wouldnt it automatically bloat most people right away though?

**Jodi** · 07-07-2003, 02:01 PM

Most will probably gain some water retention back but once their bodies get use to the new carbs and as long as they stay within maintenace calories their bodies will adjust and the retention will go away.

**Rob_NC** · 07-07-2003, 02:02 PM

Originally posted by Julie7Ulie
I have a friend on a plan (I think it looks a lot like the Atkins diet).

And she is afraid that when she is finished with the diet, she would gain the weight back if she starts consuming breads and pastas again.

I thought it might too.. so I thought Id check here..

Sounds like your friend hasn't entirely made the decision to make permanent changes to her lifestyle. When you find something that works, stick with it. If it is Atkins, I wouldn't exactly consider it healthy to make it a permanent part of her life, but a higher protein, higher (good) fat, lower carb diet should be made permanent.

I'm at the end of a cut right now which included no milk or other high GI carbs. Last week I started eating some ice cream every 3 days along with an occaisonal cookie or 6. In 3 weeks I'll start a clean bulk to (hopefully) put on some lean mass but keep the fat off (at least until summer is over). After summer, I'll start mixing my shakes in milk, eating tons of cottage cheese, and up my intake of PB&J sandwiches. Eating healthy for so long and then going back to junk all at once makes my sick. My stomach can't handle it.

**Julie7Ulie** · 07-07-2003, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by Rob_NC

Last week I started eating some ice cream every 3 days along with an occaisonal cookie or 6.

or 6?

Thanks guys, this is great advice to pass on. I'll look smart.

**Fit Freak** · 07-07-2003, 02:20 PM

Word of caution...if your friend is eating based on an Atkins approach she should stop...IMO anyway....following an Atkins diet...well...let me just say that as soon as she adds regular foods (carbs, etc) back into the diet she will inevitably gain w8...fat and a lot of fluid...that's why I don't think the Atkins diet is good.

**Jodi** · 07-07-2003, 02:40 PM

I use to believe the same thing FF but this guy at work came off the Atkins plan a few months ago and carefully got took control of carbs and how much to consume. At the time he only wanted to lose weight and he did very well but lost alot of muscle in the process but he did maintain his weight.

Now he's even more serious and is lifting and a month ago asked me for help with his diet. I normally say no because most people aren't serious but I knew he was so I've been helping him. He's lost approx. 5 pounds of fat and has put on a few pounds of muscle. He said he wishes he knew all this before the Atkins because he would have done it this way instead. He looks much healthier and does have alot of energy and has kept his weight down and eat about 180G carbs a day now and never put a pound back on.

Most cases you are right though because people don't know how to control it and think that its a free for all again.

**DaMayor** · 07-07-2003, 03:27 PM

I agree, Jodi. Most folks who go on the Atkins plan do so, at least in part, because Dr. Atkins is much more liberal with the types of foods allowed. However, in the latter phases of the diet, specifically the maintenance phase, the dieter is encouraged to eat a variety of healthy foods....not just those rich in fat as seen in the induction period. Not extremely different from a CKD really.
Secondly, FF's views are most probably based on his personal physiological makeup, or the results he has experienced via a moderate carb intake....which is fine. Obviously, his approach to diet has worked very well. Yet, some people may not do as well with the same amount of carbs. It all boils down to what works for each individual.
Back to the original question.....I personally think that any (reasonable) food is okay as long as it is eaten in moderation, with the exception of processed sugar, which is baaaaaad.

**Julie7Ulie** · 07-07-2003, 07:12 PM

Wow, thanks guys for all the great advice.

Im glad Im on IM, because if it was me I would probably treat it like a free for all and screw everything up.

I guess she's going to have to nibble and see how her body takes it..

**Mudge** · 07-07-2003, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by Julie7Ulie
But to incorporate them not as cheats, but as normal food you eat whenever you want..

I think it depends "whatever I want" is. If that means 4,500 calories of pizza and ice cream (thats what I want) then there is no way your going to keep the weight off without a wicked metabolism or so much cardio your going to drop from exaustion.

If your diet got you being a certain weight, if you go back to that diet after you have lost the weight, its not going to stay off.

If I stray from a clean diet I will notice a difference in a single day if its really bad, so doing so for longer than that, will produce even worse results.

**OceanDude** · 07-07-2003, 09:10 PM

Well I can speak from ancient personal experience that as soon as you transition with significant carb increases when coming off of an Atkins like diet (especially coming off the super low carb induction phase) you will immediately regain a lot of fluid weight since these diets typically keep the body at least 50% below full glycogen volume levels. If dieter didn’t preserve their lean body mass (with resistance training) when they phase in higher carb macro nutrients and don’t compensate for the caloric changes then it all spirals out of control fast. Especially if they think they can get away with eating faster carbs now that they have “lost scale weight”. The only saving grace I know of is the concept of “Glycemic Load” vice Glycemic Index; where you can eat some “forbidden” kinds of fast carbs if the quantity is relatively small. The GI tables normally have this value pre-computed for standard quantities. You can also mix other kinds of foods rich in fiber or acids (vinegar) and even essential fats to slow down the aggregate GI (but try to avoid foods with much sugar when combined with fat together for any but the smallest of meals).

**Julie7Ulie** · 07-09-2003, 07:46 AM

But then wouldnt the lifestyle stay as forever cutting (sort of)?

If someone was to maintain their weight, physique, etc, then the answer is everything in slight moderation then.. - or at least to mix with the proper foods.

Im assuming you mean there is a way to eat whatever as long as its eaten properly, hence:

Originally posted by OceanDude
... (but try to avoid foods with much sugar when combined with fat together for any but the smallest of meals).

For example, a hamburger is a no no because of bread being a high GI and burger being high in fat.. ?

Starches should be eaten with ... ?

**OceanDude** · 07-09-2003, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by Julie7Ulie

For example, a hamburger is a no no because of bread being a high GI and burger being high in fat.. ?

Starches should be eaten with ... ?

Not necessarily Julie7. It might be that you were clever at the grocer and you got the butcher to ground up some lean maverick beef into burger (96-97% lean) and you used a thinner stone ground whole wheat bun (or perhaps had it on an open face single slice of similar low GI/GL bread) and did not put 3 TBS of sugary catsup on it. And instead you elected to put a ton of mustard on it since it calorie free (and acidic – more GI reduction), swapped out lettuce for spinach (nutritious fiber), and went wild with garlic and horseradish (more fiber and anti-oxidants). Yum, I’m hungry already.

I am really talking about the “suicide pills” – those high caloric density super fast GI sugar and fatty things like donuts, BBQ chips, regular ice cream, pie’s, cakes and white refined flour breads and the like.

I’d say it’s OK to eat starches with proteins if total glycemic load of the combination is moderate or the portions are small. For example a small baked potato with lean beef or chicken breast and a spinach/greens salad (excellent fiber), and green beans eaten together if fine. I am a big believer in manipulating/moderating the total GI of foods with combinations of fiber, essential fats, acids etc. (e.g. citrus juice like lemon, vinegar etc.) in a way that slows the whole meal down relative to insulin impact. I actually brush on healthy extra virgin cold pressed olive oil (an excellent essential mono-fat) on meals containing potato and maybe even sprinkle on some vinegar or squeeze some lemon on it; it all will contribute to slowing the whole thing down. The fiber also geta in the way of the digestive processes with a similar GI reduction effect plus it tends to reduce the conversion efficiency. You end up not even getting some of those calories retained by the body at all. For example, the body does not want to spend 10 calories to squeeze out 5 calories of EFA that has been absorbed in a packet of intestinal fiber and “hiding”. It pragmatically will let it pass so to speak since it just can’t get to it in time – devious exploitation of digestive process inefficiencies here. And of course the protein as we all know has up to about a 30% thermogenic effect relative to consumed calories which can be thought of almost as a digestive inefficiency - in other words not all the food gets converted and so total GI is less than one might get if the foods were taken in separately. In a manner of speaking it’s the exact reverse of highly processed foods – combining foods in clever ways that essentially “un process them” with a reverse synergy effect on GI (or from the positive perspective – a BIG positive synergy with respect to fat loss).

OK, I’ll get off my soap box…

**Julie7Ulie** · 07-09-2003, 10:53 AM

No, thats great!

I understand what your saying.

thanks.

Makes a ton of sense to me, and it may ease her mind a bit to know that anything (or most things) is allowed, its just a matter of HOW she eats it.

Personally, I would love to know how to get my metabolism sky high so I can be one of thos people who can chow down on anything and not phase my physical appearance at all. Because I , for one, love the suicide pills.

If theres a way, please share the wealth

You guys are the best.

**Mudge** · 07-09-2003, 11:45 AM

Without it being deadly I dont see any magical pill doing that, as well as getting rid of muscle as well as fat. These products typically work by raising the body temperature, some people claim to be hyperthyroidal ever since even when using Ephedrine supplements (I know one such person).

Plus, garbage in does not equate to healthy internals, no matter what you look like on the outside.

**Julie7Ulie** · 07-09-2003, 11:59 AM

Huh? No I mean:

Originally posted by OceanDude
I am really talking about the “suicide pills” – those high caloric density super fast GI sugar and fatty things like donuts, BBQ chips, regular ice cream, pie’s, cakes and white refined flour breads and the like.

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