Is PWO Spike really necessary???

**P-funk** · 09-19-2003, 07:08 PM

I personally don't do a post workout insulin spike but I understand the reasons that some do and I have done it in the past. I think it is a good idea to try both ways and see wich one works best for you and which ine gives you the best results. Now, we have heard all the reasons why spiking insulin post w/o is good and there are tons of studies out there to defend this theory. So just to stick up for those of us that don't do the whole insulin spike thing here is some reading:

Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.

So bascially my argument is this. If there is a rapid period of glycogen resynthesis 30-60sec post workout that doesn't require the precense of insulin because the glut4 transporters are being translocated to the cell surface then why spike your levels? I know that everyone is going to say to get the protein in that much faster and that is good but all I am saying is....is it really neccesary?? Just a thought

(hi Jodi

)

**Jodi** · 09-19-2003, 11:05 PM

Nice!!

I split this thread to be sure that its not missed. Besides it needs it own because it appears to be an important subject lately.

**Dale Mabry** · 09-20-2003, 01:18 PM

It's not necessary, it's just better. Just like it's not NECESSARY to drink good beer, it just makes the experience that more pleasurable.

Hey, I will give anybody $100 dollars if they can figure what mode I am in.

**Mindless** · 09-20-2003, 01:23 PM

and how would you go about spiking your insulin?

**Jodi** · 09-20-2003, 01:42 PM

Do a search, this has been discussed in overkill.

**naturalguy** · 09-20-2003, 05:54 PM

How do you define neccesary? If you want optimum results and the most bang for your buck then yes it is neccesary. Will you lose muscle and not gain if you don't do it? No. However I would rather take advantage of something that works.

It's not just about getting protein to the muscles quickly, it is also about shuttling nutrients, creatine & glutamine, into the muscle cells. The insulin spike also stops cortisol production which is trying to eat away at your muscle.

Here is the best part........there is no reason not to do it! The spike DOES NOT stop lypolysis and DOES NOT store carbs as bodyfat at this time.

This study was done on actual humans and it was humans that exercise. Like I said earlier there are very few studies done with humans AND humans that exercise. Most studies are with rats and or sedentary and obese people. Here are the highlights and the reference:

These scientists assessed the metabolic fate of carbohydrates consumed by six healthy subjecta after a period of low intensity exercise, a period of moderate intensity exercise and after inactivity. The subjects were given a meal of 150 grams or 400 grams of pasta after performing a low intensity exercise session (bike pedaling at well below 50% of VO2 max) or moderate intensity exercise (60% VO2 max). The subjects were also fed these meals after a period of inactivity. The metabolic fate of the carbohydrate meal was determined using a labeled metabolic tracer within the carbohydrate structure. Exactly where these carbohydrates ended up within the body was studied for eight hours after consumption.

1. The research shows that proper consumption of carbohydrates will enhance your muscle building and fat burning results not impede them.

2. The results demonstrated that when the subjects exercised at a moderate intensity and workload then ate a carbohydrate meal, the fat burning (oxidation) process was not inhibited. The subjects all experienced an increase in fat utilization from exercise despite consuming the carbohydrate meal.

3. When the carbohydrate meals were consumed after exercise, glucose oxidation was significantly reduced. In fact, when subjects ate the high carb meal after the moderate intensity exercise session, glucose oxidation was completely suppresed. This lack of glucose oxidation and the fact that a large positive glycogen balance was observed in these subjects indicates that carbs consumed after exercise are exclusively taken up by muscle.

4. Another important finding from this research was that after exercise, fat storage is completely suppressed. This science revealed that after exercise, the conversion of nutrients such as carbs and protein into fat is virtually impossible.

To sum it up, the vast amount of pubished research in the area of carbohydrate metabolism clearly shows that it is extremely difficult for intelligent carbohydrate consumption to interfere with the fat loss process and when carbs are consumed at the right time they enhance recovery and support the muscle growth process.

reference:

Folch N. Peronnet F, Massicotte D Dulcos M, Lavoie C, Hillaire-Marcel C. Metabolic response to small and large 13C-labeled pasta meals following rest or exercise in man. Bri J. Nutri. (5) 671-680, 2001.

This is good stuff but I didn't need a study to tell me this as everything I have learned supported this and actually doing it on myself and others have shown this to be true time and time again.

**naturalguy** · 09-20-2003, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by Mindless
and how would you go about spiking your insulin?

You spike your insulin by taking in high glycemic carbs such as a dextrose drink or a gatorade type drink, you would only want to do this after a hard training session.

**P-funk** · 09-20-2003, 06:05 PM

I have tried doing both, insulin spike or not and I can honeslty say that they both work. However, when I don't do a spike I actually can bulk up and remain leaner. You post is good but it is to hard to say that one is better than the other. Carboydrate
consuption will stop lypolysis because your body can not oxidize fat in the face of an insulin spike. All, I am saying is there are many ways to do things and it is ignorant to say that one way is the only way. I mean really, looking at both studies posted here you have to keep in mind that there are many different things to look at (ie the person involved, goals, insulin sensitivity/resistance, etc...). Basically all I want is to give people an option and say "here youy go, now try both and see which one works best for you". I think both ways are effective and work well.

**naturalguy** · 09-20-2003, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by P-funk
Carboydrate
consuption will stop lypolysis because your body can not oxidize fat in the face of an insulin spike.

This is normally true but it is very different after training.

I agree that there are many ways to do things but I would want the most effecient.

I live in NY, I can get to Florida:

By walking

By bike ride

By driving

By flying

Which way will I get the most "bang for my buck", which way is the most effecient? Obviously the flying.

**P-funk** · 09-20-2003, 06:15 PM

How is it very differnet after training?? I am not talking about EPOC.

Yes I understand there are more effecient ways to do things:

I am bulking....I can spike my insulin levels and get a fatter/thicker waist (like I have in the past) or I can keep my levels stable and bulk up and remain lean.....HMMM, that sounds more effecient to me. I don't understand why you are arguing here, I am not saying either way is wrong, I am saying both ways work, you just need to see which one works best for you.

**naturalguy** · 09-20-2003, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by P-funk
How is it very differnet after training?? I am not talking about EPOC.

Yes I understand there are more effecient ways to do things:

I am bulking....I can spike my insulin levels and get a fatter/thicker waist (like I have in the past) or I can keep my levels stable and bulk up and remain lean.....HMMM, that sounds more effecient to me. I don't understand why you are arguing here, I am not saying either way is wrong, I am saying both ways work, you just need to see which one works best for you.

P,

I am not arguing with you. Your insulin sensitivity is very different after training. You will not gain fat from the insulin spike when taken post workout. At any other time of the day it would be a problem but those carbs taken after the workout do not get stored as fat. Check out that study again, this was done on athletes that weight train, not sedentary people.

Have you heard of Jeff Willet and Skip Lacour? these are 2 of the most prominent natural bodybuilders (you can check their pics at ironmanmagazine.com look for Team Universe). These guys do the insulin spike BEFORE and AFTER training and they get shredded. Carbs and insulin are handled very differently from the training response, many different things are going on as a result of the training response such as cortisol, which will eat away at your muscle, the insulin spike stops this cortisol.

**P-funk** · 09-20-2003, 06:40 PM

Yes ihave heard of Jeff Willet and Skip Lacour but just because they do it and are big and shredded doesn't mean that I am going to get those same results. I am not Jeff Willet or Skip Lacour myt genetic make up is completly different.

All I am doing is giving people an alterantive choice.

**Tha Don** · 09-21-2003, 09:25 AM

Originally posted by P-funk
How is it very differnet after training?? I am not talking about EPOC.

Yes I understand there are more effecient ways to do things:

I am bulking....I can spike my insulin levels and get a fatter/thicker waist (like I have in the past) or I can keep my levels stable and bulk up and remain lean.....HMMM, that sounds more effecient to me. I don't understand why you are arguing here, I am not saying either way is wrong, I am saying both ways work, you just need to see which one works best for you.

so if I take PWO shake of Dextrose and Whey straight after my workout I will get a fatter waist?

**P-funk** · 09-21-2003, 09:29 AM

No, not neccesarilly. Try and see what happens. All I am saying is that for me, my body type, my genetics, my metabolic rate, I seem to stay leaner with out the insulin spike. You may be different.

**Prince** · 09-21-2003, 11:55 AM

I want to interject two things here:

1.) Of course a post work-out insulin spike is not necessary, but it can be very effective!

2.) I agree with this by P-funk "I think it is a good idea to try both ways and see wich one works best for you and which one gives you the best results. "

**Freeman** · 09-21-2003, 05:58 PM

ditto

**naturalguy** · 09-22-2003, 05:48 AM

Originally posted by P-funk
Yes ihave heard of Jeff Willet and Skip Lacour but just because they do it and are big and shredded doesn't mean that I am going to get those same results. I am not Jeff Willet or Skip Lacour myt genetic make up is completly different.

All I am doing is giving people an alterantive choice.

I understand that guys like Jeff and Skip are genetically superior however that doesn't mean that we can't learn from their techniques. I have used the spike technique now religously for a year and my bodyfat has gone from 12% down to 7% and my lean mass has gone up and I am below average genetically.

You do not gain fat from this technique and the benefit to lean muscle tissue is great.

**Jodi** · 09-22-2003, 06:55 AM

Some can get fat from this. This doesn't work for everyone. Its a good idea to try both and find what works for the individual.

**hardasnails1973** · 09-22-2003, 11:13 AM

I agree
give it 4 weeks to see which works best that way you will know the answer to your own question

**Rob_NC** · 09-22-2003, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by hardasnails1973
I agree
give it 4 weeks to see which works best that way you will know the answer to your own question

I was just about to ask how long one should try this in order to come to a reasonable conclusion. Is 4 weeks enough?

**Jodi** · 09-22-2003, 12:09 PM

4-6 weeks I think is good.

Most likely if your an ectomorph that this will probably be a good option for you. Meso's and especially Endo's need to be careful with spiking. Try it and if you start getting a little to much fat or your not losing fat then drop it and go with whey and oats for post workout.

**naturalguy** · 09-22-2003, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by Rob_NC
I was just about to ask how long one should try this in order to come to a reasonable conclusion. Is 4 weeks enough?

4 weeks is reasonable HOWEVER all your other factors must remain the same or else you won't be able to tell if it was the spike or not. In other words make sure your calories and your macronutrients must remain the same. Your training must be exactly the same. Same amount and intensity of cardio.

There are many factors that go into gaining/losing fat, you can't just pinpoint it to one. That is why when they do scientific studies that are double blind.

My personal advise is not to waste your time with the 4 weeks without it, that is 4 weeks of time that you are not optimizing the muscle growth/fat loss process but if you are that curious try it.

**Jodi** · 09-22-2003, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by naturalguy
4 weeks is reasonable HOWEVER all your other factors must remain the same or else you won't be able to tell if it was the spike or not. In other words make sure your calories and your macronutrients must remain the same. Your training must be exactly the same. Same amount and intensity of cardio.

There are many factors that go into gaining/losing fat, you can't just pinpoint it to one. That is why when they do scientific studies that are double blind.

My personal advise is not to waste your time with the 4 weeks without it, that is 4 weeks of time that you are not optimizing the muscle growth/fat loss process but if you are that curious try it.

You don't quite do you? Pathetic, give a rest, let people make their own decisions will ya.

**naturalguy** · 09-22-2003, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by Jodi
You don't quite do you? Pathetic, give a rest, let people make their own decisions will ya.

I am letting people make their own decisions however they are entitled to know the FACTS not just your OPINIONS.

**Jodi** · 09-22-2003, 12:33 PM

My personal advise is not to waste your time with the 4 weeks without it, that is 4 weeks of time that you are not optimizing the muscle growth/fat loss process but if you are that curious try it.

Hmmm, YOUR OPINION!!

You do not gain fat from this technique and the benefit to lean muscle tissue is great.

Not a fact - a theory!

Here is the best part........there is no reason not to do it! The spike DOES NOT stop lypolysis and DOES NOT store carbs as bodyfat at this time.

Again, your opinion and not a fact but a theory!

Shall I go on?

**naturalguy** · 09-22-2003, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by Jodi
Hmmm, YOUR OPINION!!

Not a fact - a theory!

Again, your opinion and not a fact but a theory!

Shall I go on?

Jodi, go back and read the study. It doesn't get more factual than that.

Then go talk to the thousands of competitive bodybuilders that use this technique.

**Jodi** · 09-22-2003, 01:08 PM

I read the study but its still a theory and it does not work for EVERYONE!

Drop it already will ya!!

I'm so done with this! You don't give up and you refuse to believe anything else other than your own opinions.

**naturalguy** · 09-22-2003, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by Jodi
I read the study but its still a theory and it does not work for EVERYONE!

Drop it already will ya!!

I'm so done with this! You don't give up and you refuse to believe anything else other than your own opinions.

You must have had one too many low carb days, a study is not a theory, that is why they have studies to prove theories. You are much more opinionated than me, you should go back and read some of your own posts.

**Jodi** · 09-22-2003, 01:26 PM

I really am trying to say this in a polite but not so polite way. Yes, I have had a few no carb days. IT"S PART OF BEING READY TO STEP ON STAGE IN 5 DAYS NOW ISN"T IT!!!

Then you must also realize that Funky's study wasn't just pulled out of his ass either!!!! RIGHT!

Big difference between you and I - I don't force my opinions on people. I offer my suggestion and don't push my opinions and theories as you so do.

**naturalguy** · 09-22-2003, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by Jodi

I really am trying to say this in a polite but not so polite way. Yes, I have had a few no carb days. IT"S PART OF BEING READY TO STEP ON STAGE IN 5 DAYS NOW ISN"T IT!!!

Then you must also realize that Funky's study wasn't just pulled out of his ass either!!!! RIGHT!

Big difference between you and I - I don't force my opinions on people. I offer my suggestion and don't push my opinions and theories as you so do.

I read P-funk's study carefully and it says NOTHING about fat gain or loss. It states that you can replace glycogen slowly just as effectively as doing it with a spike. This is very true however the spike has more advantages than just replacing glycogen quickly. It brings amino acids, creatine and glutamine quickly into muscle tissue. It stops the production of cortisol, which will eat away at your muscle.

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