Thread: Refeeds and Leptin

Hi guys,

I am currently around 4-5% BF 5"8 170lbs. I'm on a TKD diet 6days/week of intense workout (HIT etc) and hitting somewhere close to 1750 cals a day with 30 low GI Pre and 57 High Gi/more complex mix from Universal Torrent.

I am incorporating refeed days on saturdays and a cheat meal post workout on tuesday night just for sanity (mostly nutella on half a white bread...No fries or anything...Bloat hell...) and boosting leptin a little (i know a single meal won't do much though).

i was wondering the Fat limit you're talking about for the refeed day. Cause Pancakes waffles and biscuits here in belgium are not really fat free (close to 15-20% fat) usually and FF food is pretty hard to get here except those diet stuff

so my goal is to limit myself to that 20% limit. DO you think that's way over the top for a whole refeed day?

Not at all, the only thing you really need is the carbs and calories. You don't need to increase your fat intake. The idea is to trigger your body into storing a little fat by overdoing the carbs, just enough to fool it into thinking there's no starvation issue.

Either that or I'm misreading your question?



B.

No you got it right. I do understand the concept. I am not increasing the fat on purpose, it's just a matter of food choices for the refeed. Usually in the week the macros are 50% prot 40% Fish/olive oil fats and 10% carbs (aimed at the workout timeframe).
Since the refeed foods you mention are all FF sources, i was guessing to stay under some 70% C 20-25% prot 5-10% F
I went to the supermarket and bought a whole lot of carbs for the next refeed and managed to stay under the 10-15% fat limit so I guess it will be perfect! Pancakes/cereals/processed bread/baked chips/basmati etc. two full bags right there..I can"t imagine everything going in...

Would drinking a couple of tablespoons of vegetable glycerine help carb assimilation? I read an article on T-nation about a precontest carbup

Nice guide dude. Thanks for writing it.
__________________

Did I understand it correctly?

If I use cutting diet, in every 4-5 day I must eat much more carbs?

That's about it, just to trick your body into thinking that carbs are available.



B.

Hello all! I started dieting a while back, and mixed with exercise, lost about 15 pounds. I am now 5'9" 143 pounds. I just started lifting weights a bit over a week ago, and became more interested in improving my diet. My goal is to eventually burn off the extra fat around my lower abdominals, and get that six-pack popping.

I posted my diet here 2 days ago, and realized I was eating too many carbs, and very low fat (but very sufficient protein). All of the carbs I eat are low GI though (whole-wheat breads, bran cereal, berry fruits, whole-wheat pasta). I recently started a diet that is much lower in carbs, substituting whole-wheat turkey breast sandwiches with canned tuna (no bread), and substituting all-bran cereal with eggs.

Do I need to be refeeding too? I love the idea of one day a week of lots of hi GI carbs, and generally speaking I already eat very low fats. Enlighten me

good article dude!!!thanks for sharing with us!!

Lacoste - no, generally you do not need to refeed on the diet you describe.

The general idea is that you trick your body into NOT thinking there is a major carb shortage. This prevents your body doing the various things it does which would nullify that.

As soon as you've tricked your body into thinking carbs are plentiful, you starve it of carbs again.

You on the other hand have simply reduced your carbs, which is generally a good thing, but refeeding would serve no great purpose. Your body is not responding to a lack of carbs because you're already eating some. It's only when you go seriously low or cut carbs altogether you need to refeed.


Hope that helps.


Rassivo - Please contribute a bit more to the conversation or resist the impulse to post.



B.

lactose intolerance could effect the way milk is digested as well whey protein help me allot lol

these refeeds are going to take some getting used to... i've been cutting for a while and it's been going fairly well but this past week i've really dropped the cals and carbs and after 7 days of strict eating i was starting to feel really sluggish, lethargic and craving carbs like mad so last night i decided it was time to do a refeed... i smoked a little bit of pot for some inspiration and got a big bowl of linguine chicken alfredo into me, followed by some PB and jam on half a pita, followed by a decent size bowl of mini wheats, then a bowl of vector and finally a bowl of oatmeal crisp... i went against jodi's advice and stepped on the scale this morning and was a couple pounds heavier but wow, i feel like crap! i feel like i just threw my entire last weeks progress out the window! haha

hopefully i've got some more energy over the next few days and see the fat loss accelerate again!

one thing i'm confused about is some people (jodi) say you want to go over your maintenance cals but other people say if you're cutting you still want to maintain the deficit but just swap fat cals for carb cals... which one is it? cause i definitely did not maintain my caloric deficit last night :P

Weight alone is not the issue, which is exactly why not jumping on the scales is advised when doing this.

Look in the mirror instead, get your tape measure out, check your 1RM - but ignore the scales because yes, they WILL show a big difference when you refeed, most of which is water, not fat.



B.

don't worry about the weight gain, carbs pull 2.7g of water inside a muscle cell. I hardly see a spillover happening with only a few hours of carbing (I hardly see your diet to be in jeopardy with only a few hours of junk eating).
just avoid HFCS (high fructose corn syrup) or other sources of fructose for a refeed in excess (although in the beginning of the day fruits are okay because it helps stabilise glucolytic enzymes, aka the absorption of the rest without turning the excess carbs into fat)

Also the whole point is not only to put leptin levels high but also to kick your thyroid production because days and weeks of recstriction make the t3 levels to plummet and the metabolism to slow down.

as a side note, one other thing i found to be effective as hell when i crave carbs, or junk food: 1gm of metformin hcl (glucophage), no weight change at all, no bloat, nothing. Just on occasion. But this is another story since i found a study that showed that metformin ingestion blunted the leptin response to eating (as well as insulin).

when the hormone environment is adequate, fat loss is greater than ever.

i felt so disgusting i skipped breakfast this morning haha... i was actually still too full to eat anyways... i'm back on track now though and am heading to the gym shortly... hopefully i notice some more energy tonight... nobody's answered my Q about what to shoot for calorie wise on refeed days... eat above, below or at maintenance?

these refeeds definitely work... i stuffed my face with carbs the other night and felt like shit the next day but 2 days later i'm back down to the weight i was at (not that weight matters that much) and look and feel tight and am energized again!

There ya go

Regarding calories, surely it's here on the thread somewhere earlier?

Anyway, regardless of what you're 'meant' to do, I generally suggest aiming noticably above normal maintenance for the refeed itself. The whole idea is to blunt the body's natural responses by convincing it there's no shortage, even a surplus, right? So the last thing you need is an actual shortage.

It's not a re-nibble, it's a re-feed, sorta thing.


B.

what i'm stuck on is the whole concept of needing to create a 3500 calorie deficit per week in order to lose a pound of fat... if i'm eating well above maintenance calories once a week or even more often than that for my refeed how is it that i'm going to see fat loss?

Your body burns the fat during the week, due to the absence of handy carbs. However beyond a certain point it will dig in and find alternatives, hormones go crazy etc. The refeed is just to prevent that happening so you can continue burning fat.

Remember the very act of digging fat from within the cells and converting it back to fuel is itself going to burn a few cals along with various other subtle effects (such as exercising!). Bottom line this cycle forces your bod to actually dig that fat out and burn it - so your main aim is just to not let those fat cells fill up again. That's not gonna happen on one day of eating carbs with a body already starved of carbs.

If you haven't, and I know it's kinnda long, I'd suggest re-reading the thread from the beginning because I think it's all pretty much explained in there.


B.

Originally Posted by Biggly

If you haven't, and I know it's kinnda long, I'd suggest re-reading the thread from the beginning because I think it's all pretty much explained in there.

No, I probably will, I find the whole refeed concept very interesting. Thanks for you input Big.

I know a refeed day is slightly different than a cheat day, but to scarf down all those carbs feels like a cheat day to me. I don't overly crave saturated fat, so if I can break the low carb insanity by stuff my face with a bunch of carbs then that's perfect!

Then you're gonna love it


B.

exactly

Might have to try this concept

hello ive read this thread alot lately.
im 155(LBM about 140) pounds at 5'11'' and have reached a plateau in my weight loss in the last couple months. i still have some fat on my midsection and lovehandles. when they used the machine it said i had 6% bodyfat but i know those arent acurate so i would say im closer to 10%
tried my first real refeed today. how the hell do you get 1200 grams of these in a 5 hour period? today ive ate 2 bowls of raison brain at about 100 grams. another 50 grams from wheat thins. a whole bag of low fat tortilla chips with salsa which was close to 200 grams. i then had low sugar low fat ice cream which was only another 100 grams max. thats only 450 grams which is at least 4x my normal daily carbs. its only been 7 hours and im going to store to see what carb dense foods will get me closer.
any more carb dense foods i could eat that wont fill me up as much?

I don't think you need as much as 1200 grams to refeed or get the effect on leptin and thyroid stimulation. how come guys like toney freeman or other pros carb up with no more than 600 a day of carbs.

you can get 1200 grams in 48 hours which is much more viable and reasonnable. I did have a couple of months ago 1000 grams in one day but this is overkill. I'm over 185 for 5'8 and my BF is close to 5 right now. I am most of the time in mild to strong keto (ketostix 3/day to check) I workout everyday and I don't think I need carbs even though I have 1h of cardio/day.

there's a really nice read from t-nation you can have about the difference between refeed, loading and cheating maybe this helps.

I don't think 1200 is something to shoot no matter your size.

T-Nation.com | 5 Reasons for Failed Body Transformations

maybe this helps
M

^thanks. i got that number from an article i found here My Journey 2008: Refeeds and Cheat (Free) Meals
it was refering to a 24 hour period actually. my bad
i actually got up about 600 grams yesterday. i cant believe how much stuff i ate!

how long should one wait to do their first refeed once they've started cutting?

Depends on level of body fat, and how low your calories/carbs are.

Typically 3-7 days

Thorough, if you're willing to go hard and heavy, have you considered the anabolic burst?

I tracked my own results with Biggly and it does work, at least the way I did it. It's not easy and most will give up but if you have the willpower...?


B.