Obesity a disease now?

katie64 · 01-02-2004, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stickboy
OD makes some good points - I just don't necessarily agree with them all.

Laziness is an adjective. Nothing more than a word to describe a behavior. Are some people lazy? Of course they are. Are some of them obese....sure. No need to take offense at a general comment.

Motivation. If people are truly unhappy with themselves, the can and WILL change the behavior (unless someone can prove to me that overeating is an addiction). Unfortunately, some that are obese lack this. Perhaps depression sets in about the situation, and kills any motivation to change things?

I disagree about the 20 lbs overweight subject. There are too many people that have become shining examples of health after being massively overweight. Genetics may play a part here.

In my mind, there is no way obesity is a disease. The US has become a socieity where nothing is no one's fault. There is always something else to blame. Except yourself.

It's a damn shame really.

Good Post

**Dale Mabry** · 01-02-2004, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stickboy
The US has become a socieity where nothing is no one's fault.

Yeah, even poor grammar.

katie64 · 01-02-2004, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dale Mabry
Yeah, even poor grammar.

Are you a english teacher, I missed it, lol

Stickboy · 01-02-2004, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dale Mabry
Yeah, even poor grammar.

LOL. Never speak incorrectly again.

I will be here to remind you when you do.

Dero · 01-02-2004, 11:41 PM

Uh-oh!!!
I am in deep trouble then!
There goes my front!!!
Yes,I agree with all the points you have made Stickboy!!
It is so easy to put the blame on somebody else,imagine all the obese people that are now going to blame it on anybody but the right people THEMSELVES!!!
"I cannot lose any weight,it is the fault of the government"will be the excuse that obese people will have rolling out of their mouth!!
Obesity is NOT a disease,it is a way of life,a way that leads to bad health.I see so many obese people around here,yes in Canada and where do they all gather???At the fast food chains,in front of vending machines,they gather and have meetings and the topic usually is,how can we make money off the government with our fat...?
Sorry,there is SOME sarcasim in this post.

Ok,that aside,I think that obesity is something that grows in each of us,if we DO NOT take care of ourselves!!!WE and only WE can prevent obesity from spreading.This place is not the place that needs preaching,hell,look at all of you lovely people!!!
It's out there,in your every day lives,at the office,at school,on the streets,EVEN AT THE BARS!!!

Do you need that extra bite?
You think that food is good for you?
You are going to take a cab for two blocks??????
How many times,have any of you stopped yourself from saying that to somebody else?
I think if we let it out we will prevent the GOVERNMENT from wasting $$$ on a non medical/psycological desease!!!
OD,don't get me wrong,some of the points you have made are good,but some of them are so way off base.

BUSTINOUT · 01-03-2004, 12:08 AM

Careful dero. You actually sound like a Republican(according to HDM's) post. lol

Dero · 01-03-2004, 12:19 AM

Ha,ha... I would have to be a citizen of the country, to be such a beast!!!

I say politics,smolitics!!!(can I say that Stickboy?)

BUSTINOUT · 01-03-2004, 12:23 AM

It doesn't hurt to dream. lol

BUSTINOUT · 01-03-2004, 12:23 AM

wanna trade?

Dero · 01-03-2004, 12:26 AM

Depends what you wanna trade??

OceanDude · 01-03-2004, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by katie64
Bullshit..............I'm livining proof that's a crock........ JMHO.....

Uhmm Kaitie, I'm confused by your statement. You are not intending to say you are a crock of bullshit are you? You don't look like that to me. Can you elaborate?

-OD

OceanDude · 01-03-2004, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dero
The way I look at it...No,you are NOT off base!
Anything that OD tackles has to do with politics,sorry dude I call them as I see them.
For once OD,don't mix politics and health!!!

My view!!

Dero, why should you think it somehow inappropriate to ignore politics in the context of health and fitness? As for myself I have not explicitly expressed any particular political party’s name or agenda. Why should you call for silence and seek to censor my right to have a political view (which I have not even expressed) when it’s a fundamental right for all Americans to have one? Sorry, to me you are sounding like big brother or someone who thinks they have more rights than I do. Don’t be so naive to think that national policy and the legislation enacted from political motives have no impact on your health. This wrong headedness would have us deny that the large bureaucratic agencies like the FDA (which banned ephedra and forced the concept of the food pyramid and its high amounts of fast carbs down are throats as healthy) and other bad political decisions don’t exist. Look at the numbers bubba. Ever since the government (both Democratic and Republican) declared war on obesity the obesity rate has risen exponentially. It’s the same failed effect we saw with a certain political party declared war on poverty and built more slum housing, increase welfare and record high codependency and quadrupled the poverty levels to unprecedented levels. Ignore the lessons from the past and the bad politics and we all suffer the same result.

Fundamentally, everyone that does not stick their head in the sand should be clearly able to see the two big competing philosophies that shape our laws and personal existence and our health and well being. One is based on a big tax and spend government that promises to trust it to take care of us all from the “womb to the tomb” but fails due to its own bureaucracy and incompetence. The other philosophy is a minimalist government that recognizes the failures, inefficiencies and waste of large government and seeks to promote personal freedom along with personal responsibility. It stead of government controls it relies on market forces and demand as an expression of the people’s will to shape our life (and has its own weaknesses). I definitely have a preference for one general philosophy over the other but I didn’t intent to get into that here. My opinion is most bodybuilders tend to favor being independent and responsible with their life and health and do not want a lot of government intrusion. Let the chips fall where they may on where a person prefers to be on the political spectrum since I have problems with both philosophies. But don’t start talking out of both sides of your mouth by trying to deny me my freedom to have an opinion about how I want to live and control my own life and help my fellow man or I am going to start calling them as I see them – you are sounding like a classical liberal and hypocrite.

Love & Peace Bro - let's all stick our heads in the sand and sing kum-ba-yah.

OD

katie64 · 01-03-2004, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by OceanDude
I use to think similar things as you all about it all being attitude, laziness and nutrition.

I believe this to be true....

Quote:

There is truth in this thinking up to the point that a person permanently damages one’s metabolism. At which point (barring psychological disorders) obesity begins to look like a true disease since it just cascades out of control as mobility and metabolism slow down.

Are you saying this is only in the mind of the person, obesity is not a disease, it's a condition, one of which people choose to allow for themselves (medical conditions excluded)

Quote:

If you read the literature there is a clear indication that after exceeding a certain threshold of excess weight one’s metabolism can be permanently damaged and it may become impossible to get the body to ever again select fat tissue as the preferred fuel.

I don't know where you are getting your information from, I totally disagree with this, I have a friend she is in her early sixties, she started walking 4 yrs. ago because she was over8, she changed her diet and walked, after just under 2 yrs, she reached her goal of w8 loss and health, she has maintained her healthy body since then, I am almost 40, I have been over8 for the past 6 yrs, but my excess w8 is due to medication (medical) /not eating (stalling my metabolism)/and pure lack of motivation..........when I say I am living proof, it means, I am losing w8 because of a healthy diet and training, reconditioning my body, it's psychological to the point of changing your perspective on what you want in your life, a healhty life style or one of a life long obesity problem and all that goes with that. I am a third of the way to meeting my goals, I would be further along but I stopped eating and training this summer.

Quote:

There are also various studies that link obesity with childhood feeding and how heavy the mother was at gestation and what she ate. We really need a whole lot more study since it is clearly better to never get overweight in the first place. It’s extremely hard to lose weight and keep it off if you get over certain thresholds (typically about 20 lbs overweight) since one’s metabolic set point changes and the adipose tissue actually becomes like a new organ that adapts in ways not fully understood.

Again I do not agree with the beginning of this statement, I gainined 60lbs with both my boys and 40 with my daughter and lost it all back to 127lbs, my normal w8, my children are not over8, my daughter is teeny tiny exactly as I was growing up, my boys are very healthy, I always tell my kids when they measure their bellies and say Mom I'm fat, haha, I say you grow out then up, out and up and when the get the hiccups, they're growing,

, they think it's funny, old wives tale........

And I know nothing about adipose tissue

Quote:

Once insulin insensitivity sets in (pre diabetes and insulin insensitivity are one of the most common aliments in this country) about the only natural way to improve things is with resistance training. But there seem to be limits on how far this will revert the condition. Other than that option it’s a life long regiment of special drugs and very narrow diet intake to hold it all in check.

We have tons of literature on this, people again have a choice as to how they want their future health to be, again a sign of laziness and lack of motivation for changing their lifestyle, we do have OE (Overeaters Anonymous), a very simple and basic program, we also have retreats for people to go to, to learn how to change their life style, again this boils down to a choice, you know they say alcoholism is a disease, I can not say one way or the other on this, but for me it's about choice, I've chosen not to have a drink or drug for 18 years because I know what it did to me, it is the same for food, I know how I feel if I don't eat, there are eating disorders (pyschological in my opinion), I do not have an eating disorder, my thing was, I'm never hungry........not a disease

Quote:

So for a guy that is not big on taxation in this case I am all in favor of putting up the red flag and calling it a disease. This moniker it will lead to more budget being spent to help an extremely large majority of US citizens. It’s certainly money better spent that many many other programs and hopefully it will result in money being taken from those other wasteful programs that serve only small special interest constituencies.

There already is a huge amount of money spent to educate those that are obese, private money, I admit it can be confusing for some, including me at first, but I believe if people have a willingness to learn and change their attitude to one of meekness, then a wealth of information is giving to them freely, as it has been to me, this actually is one thing that shows people helping people, powers of example are everywhere for those that choose to change their lifestyle.

katie64 · 01-03-2004, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by OceanDude
Uhmm Kaitie, I'm confused by your statement. You are not intending to say you are a crock of bullshit are you? You don't look like that to me. Can you elaborate?

-OD

I did apologize for this statement

OceanDude · 01-03-2004, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by katie64
I believe this to be true....
...

Katie,
Thanks for the clarification and congratulations on your impressive accomplishments. I too am a “success story”. At 47 I was shocked to wake up to the reality that I was 230 lbs and 31% BF. In High school, ages ago by your standards, I was the classic skinny guy at 135 lbs. I never felt that I was that bad out of shape until I read a book that basically told me I was “obese” – in the same category as all those people that were really fat at 300+ lbs. I didn’t think I was that bad but there were the numbers right there on my scale and calipers. Since that revelation over a year ago I became committed to getting back in shape and ended up losing 54 lbs of fat and putting on 16 lbs of muscle and got to 11% BF (currently 189 lbs). But then I realized it was very hard to do any better. After much though, study and effort I concluded that this is not all a condition of age but its due to a change in the body’s metabolic set point. There is no laziness or lack of intense desire to do better on my part. It is extremely difficult for me to get much better because I believe my prior overweight condition damaged my ability to completely regain and keep a higher metabolic set point. In that sense I had a disease that appears to have done irrepairable damage. We all know we must eat enough to prevent loss of lean tissue and to keep strength so I can't simply increase activities even more and reduce calories - the bio system has changed. Maybe in my case the disease is mental for thinking its possible to get a full 6 pack at an age over 40? But believe me when I say I want it and I am not lazy and I am nutritionally very educated and motivated. So, I read more and more and studied and researched medical studies and worked even harder and formed some of the opinions based on research that I have expressed here. I have spent countless hours pouring over medical research.

Given that context you might understand where I am coming from – we have both “been there”. The “problem” with being fitness conscious after coming off of a prior state of obesity is that we want perfection. And that I think is where the subtle differences in opinion exist in this discussion. I believe that obesity is a condition that can be caused by disease (both mental and physical) and also by factors that are not necessarily a true disease (e.g. simple overeating, nutritional ignorance and inactivity). In some extreme cases, perhaps not nesessairly in the majority, I believe it is a genuine disease. There is a point of obesity for some where the body can reach a point where it is physically impossible to eat “normal amounts” of food and still get it absorbed and used by the tissue (due to insulin insensitivity). Forget how a person got to that state but consider what is happening biologically when the organs can not produce and use insulin correctly. At that point obesity is the outward sign of a true disease. It comes down to perspective. Which end of the rope is the end? Which is the disease and what is the effect? Don’t mean to sound flippant but what came first the chicken or the cholesterol?

-OD

katie64 · 01-03-2004, 11:08 AM

Yes, I guess it takes knowing a person a little better than presuming they are just ignorant or lazy..........my difficulty was also in the respect of expecting perfection, but for me it ends up in failure, part of the learning preocess of oneself, typical quick fixes obviously don't work, therefore learning patience and researching how the body works is imperative for future health....... It's difficult to assume anything when it comes to people and their physical and/or mental difficulties, we are all different, that is one thing I have learned here, what works for me may not work for you......................did you understand any of that

lol

Glad your back OD, I admire your intelligence and willingness to see the other side of things

**Prince** · 01-03-2004, 11:53 AM

OceanDude, a very small pecentage of overweight and/or obese people are in in that condition due to genetic factors.

kbm8795 · 01-03-2004, 12:04 PM

Gosh...that could make them....a small, special interest group.

bandaidwoman · 01-03-2004, 12:31 PM

I actually see this as an opening for more lawsuits like the one in Ohio.
Like most physicians struggling with an ever-fatter patient population the medical community is walking a fine line between two extremes.

On one side are the lawyers. Earlier this year, an internist in Ohio lost a wrongful death lawsuit involving an obese smoker who died of a heart attack. The jury awarded the family $3.5 million in part because they felt the physician did not do enough to help the man lose weight. The case is being appealed.

Similar cases are pending elsewhere in the United States. And public interest lawyers who are going after fast-food companies for possibly playing a role in the obesity epidemic have said physicians, too, may become targets if they don't do enough to help their patients slim down.

On the other side are members of the fat acceptance movement. These are people who fight to be accepted at the size they are, even if that size is defined medically as a serious health risk.

Quote:

Organizations such as the National Assn. to Advance Fat Acceptance and the International Size Acceptance Assn. fight against discrimination on the basis of size in all walks of life, including the exam room.

"There's a lot of anger and mistrust of the medical community within [this] community," said Allen Steadham, director of ISAA. "The weight in and of itself is not a dangerous medical condition. We don't see obesity as a disease."

NAAFA goes so far as to issue guidelines for physicians and other health care professionals on how fat patients should be treated. The organization does not want patients to be automatically weighed. If they do step on the scales, it should be in private.

A doctor can be sued for being callous towards obesity by weighing them in the hall and sued for not doing enough to address it. (whatever that means..ie: not recommending bariatric surgery? Not prescribing wt loss medicines, not referring to a nutrionist? counseling and advocation of good dietary habits and increase in exercise isn't enough.

It's a win win situation for the lawyers.

Stickboy · 01-03-2004, 01:45 PM

What exactly can a doctor do about if the patient refuses his advice? Nothing. He can't legally make someone improve their health. It's a shame to see doctors being sued because "he didn't do enough to get his patient to lose weight".

I guess kidnapping the patient, chaining them to a treadmill and forcing them to eat healthy will be an acceptable practice in the near future to avoid a lawsuit, eh?

OceanDude · 01-03-2004, 02:01 PM

Its not as bad as it sounds. Many of the Doctors cry wolf and refer their patients to their other co-partner's health clinics and diagnostic centers and insist on exhaustive and comprehensive testing. The huge bills are then submited to insurance providers for payment. The patient usually gets hit with hefty co-pays and denials then learns he has to pay the difference. Many Doctors' make a ton of indirect money at the same time they publicly cry wolf about law suits and medical malpractise insurance rates. It's all part of the game for a lot of them.

OD

bandaidwoman · 01-03-2004, 02:55 PM

let's get one thing straight. Doctors get no kickbacks from ordering diagnositic tests. Legally it is not allowed. If a back surgeon somehow owns a MRI facility, he cannot refer any of his own patients to subsidise his MRI facility. In georgia the average plumber makes more than the average doctor, yet malpractice premiums are skyrocketing past what a doc can earn for a living. Two general surgeons here at the facility have already left the state when ST Paul, their malpractice carrier decided it wasn't profitable to be in malpractice. Both have never been sued successfully, both work 95-100 hours a week making no more than 140, 000 and the malpractice premiums were 160,000. They packed up and left.

REMEMBER, IN THE HMO CAPITATED SYSTEM, DOCTORS GET PAID A FIXED FEE AND LESS IS PAID TO A DOCTOR FOR OrDERING MORE TESTS. The more a doctor orders in terms of tests, the less he or she makes. There is no financial incentive for ordering tests. A doctor gets punished for ordering tests, but tests need to be ordered... because many times they are necessary, and many times the patients demand it despite protests.

In West Virginia, there are no cardiologists, since malpractice premiums are above what any cardiologist could make. If you have a heart attack, hope you get a good internist and a fast driver to an out of state hospital.

By the way the average doc in Georgia makes $90,000, the average chiropracter (who doesn't have to get up in the middle of the night makes $100,000, and the average plumber makes $110,000 (at least he has to get up in the middle of the night!

) Of course they don't shoulder the medical school loans which are now averaging over $100,000. Not that docs are hurting, but there are easier ways to make the same amount.
Most still love what they do.

PS. pediatricians in South Georgia make $40,000 a year. My Orkin pest guy makes more than that.

By the way, the aveage orthodontist with a 35 hour work week makes $350,000...just to give some perspective.

OceanDude · 01-03-2004, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bandaidwoman
let's get one thing straight. Doctors get no kickbacks from ordering diagnositic tests. Legally it is not allowed...

Fair enough BandAidWoman. I was not necessarily referring to legal activities. And please don’t misread me – I am not at all unsympathetic to the political, and legal morass that physicians and surgeons now currently find themselves in. What was once one of the most respected professions in the nation is now becoming closer and closer to the contempt and 7th hell that most of the vulgate would consign lawyers to if given the chance. I see it for what it really is – class envy but we all seem under siege in that department these days. In fact, some of my best and closest friends are physicians. One is an elite brain surgeon, highly regarded by his peers. He is contemplating bailing out rather than caving into mediocrity and being forced by hospital policy to resign his independent control and wellbeing of his patients to managed health care clerks. He tell s me sobering stories of how people with little more than high school degrees look up formulas in insurance books and routinely challenge his diagnosis and procedures he uses to save a persons life and often deny approving expenses for minor tests that would insure that major surgery could be avoided or recovered from sooner.

I guess it’s a mad world out there for all professions and common folk these days. I just happened to know of some enterprising doctors that get indirect fees by setting up trust corps and “investing” in very high end medical equipment that is then leased to colleagues in the diagnostic community. Technically they are not legally partners but they are certainly in a position to agree to whatever lease terms they see fit and provide quid pro quo reciprocation when it comes to referrals. I personally don’t have a big problem with it as long as the rates are comparable with others and the procedures are not completely bogus. I guess I may be guilty of extrapolating and over generalizing. It is probably wrong to think that a large number of doctors are this smart and business savvy and able to find the many legal ways to participate in both ends of the market.

-OD

**Prince** · 01-03-2004, 03:43 PM

I wonder how much the average Plastic Surgeon makes!

bandaidwoman · 01-03-2004, 03:47 PM

Quote:

It is probably wrong to think that a large number of doctors are this smart and business savvy and able to find the many legal ways to participate in both ends of the market

You are right! Most docs just want to go to work and fix people up. In fact, most have very little business saavy and legal smarts....unfortunate in this day and age.

Doctors are like any other profession.... there will always be the disreputable or greedy ones that continue to taint and tarnish what I believe is the greatest calling in the world.

I feel for your neursosurgeon friend, one of the most reputable cardiologist I know retired early when insurance plans started to deny payments for many of his tests. He said he just could not convince the Medical Director of the HMO (a retired dermatologist) why a dopamine stress echo was a better test for an individual than a stress thallium. He could not stomach bbegging and pleading for the rest of his professional career with idiots.

Flex · 01-03-2004, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by naturaltan
I do sympathize with those who are overweight and it is a medical issue.
I cannot sympathize with those using the no time excuse.
I cannot sympathize with those who are overweight and not eating properly
I can sympathize with those who are overweight, eating properly, going to the gym and seeing slow results and wanting to give up.

exactly.

obesity is NOT a disease whatsoever. except for those unfortunate people who have genetic predispositions to carrying lotsa fat.

the biggest problem is that people don't care enough to do anything about it. they eat shit, don't exercize and get fat. then they wonder why???

the other thing is, many people just do not care that they are obese. most would like to change it, but won't.

01-02-2004, 11:41 PM	#35
Dero Registered User Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 10,780 Photos: 6	Uh-oh!!! I am in deep trouble then! There goes my front!!! Yes,I agree with all the points you have made Stickboy!! It is so easy to put the blame on somebody else,imagine all the obese people that are now going to blame it on anybody but the right people THEMSELVES!!! "I cannot lose any weight,it is the fault of the government"will be the excuse that obese people will have rolling out of their mouth!! Obesity is NOT a disease,it is a way of life,a way that leads to bad health.I see so many obese people around here,yes in Canada and where do they all gather???At the fast food chains,in front of vending machines,they gather and have meetings and the topic usually is,how can we make money off the government with our fat...? Sorry,there is SOME sarcasim in this post. Ok,that aside,I think that obesity is something that grows in each of us,if we DO NOT take care of ourselves!!!WE and only WE can prevent obesity from spreading.This place is not the place that needs preaching,hell,look at all of you lovely people!!! It's out there,in your every day lives,at the office,at school,on the streets,EVEN AT THE BARS!!! Do you need that extra bite? You think that food is good for you? You are going to take a cab for two blocks?????? How many times,have any of you stopped yourself from saying that to somebody else? I think if we let it out we will prevent the GOVERNMENT from wasting $$$ on a non medical/psycological desease!!! OD,don't get me wrong,some of the points you have made are good,but some of them are so way off base. Senior citizen at work, don't bugg me.

01-03-2004, 12:19 AM	#37
Dero Registered User Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 10,780 Photos: 6	Ha,ha... I would have to be a citizen of the country, to be such a beast!!! I say politics,smolitics!!!(can I say that Stickboy?) Senior citizen at work, don't bugg me.

01-03-2004, 12:26 AM	#40
Dero Registered User Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 10,780 Photos: 6	Depends what you wanna trade?? Senior citizen at work, don't bugg me.

01-03-2004, 11:08 AM	#46
katie64 Senior Member Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: ME, USA Posts: 2,295	Yes, I guess it takes knowing a person a little better than presuming they are just ignorant or lazy..........my difficulty was also in the respect of expecting perfection, but for me it ends up in failure, part of the learning preocess of oneself, typical quick fixes obviously don't work, therefore learning patience and researching how the body works is imperative for future health....... It's difficult to assume anything when it comes to people and their physical and/or mental difficulties, we are all different, that is one thing I have learned here, what works for me may not work for you......................did you understand any of that lol Glad your back OD, I admire your intelligence and willingness to see the other side of things *Each of us conceals an abyss, though few of us are aware of its existence, and even fewer dare to explore its vastness.* Katie [color="Green"]My Journal...[/COLOR

01-03-2004, 11:53 AM	#47
Prince IronMagLabs Owner Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 37,397 Photos: 356	OceanDude, a very small pecentage of overweight and/or obese people are in in that condition due to genetic factors. BOARD SPONSORS: MassNutrition.com - Discount Supplement Superstore IronMagLabs.com - Bodybuilding Nutrition AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders & Supplements CEMProducts.com - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclesProd.com - Steroids, Bodybuilding & Training Blog Maximizer.com - Maximum Strength for Maximum Performance MikeGetsRipped.com - The Original 'Get Ripped' Blog ProteinRoutine.com - Experiments in Healthy Living Follow on Twitter Join Facebook Group Befriend on Myspace

01-03-2004, 12:08 AM	#36
BUSTINOUT Registered User Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 2,418	Careful dero. You actually sound like a Republican(according to HDM's) post. lol

01-03-2004, 12:23 AM	#38
BUSTINOUT Registered User Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 2,418	It doesn't hurt to dream. lol

01-03-2004, 12:04 PM	#48
kbm8795 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Illinois Posts: 2,367 Photos: 1	Gosh...that could make them....a small, special interest group.

01-03-2004, 01:45 PM	#50
Stickboy Rebel without a clue Elite Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: NM Posts: 1,115	What exactly can a doctor do about if the patient refuses his advice? Nothing. He can't legally make someone improve their health. It's a shame to see doctors being sued because "he didn't do enough to get his patient to lose weight". I guess kidnapping the patient, chaining them to a treadmill and forcing them to eat healthy will be an acceptable practice in the near future to avoid a lawsuit, eh?

01-03-2004, 02:01 PM	#51
OceanDude Well Read Elite Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Cape Canaveral, FL Posts: 1,853	Its not as bad as it sounds. Many of the Doctors cry wolf and refer their patients to their other co-partner's health clinics and diagnostic centers and insist on exhaustive and comprehensive testing. The huge bills are then submited to insurance providers for payment. The patient usually gets hit with hefty co-pays and denials then learns he has to pay the difference. Many Doctors' make a ton of indirect money at the same time they publicly cry wolf about law suits and medical malpractise insurance rates. It's all part of the game for a lot of them. OD "Doc, If I had known I was going to live this long I would have taken better care of myself..." Est unusquisque faber ipsae suae fortunae. We Americans scoff at the likes of African witch doctors yet spend 100's of millions of dollars on fake reducing systems. The only regular exercise he gets is stretching the truth. His intellect is not replenished, he is only an animal, only sensible in the duller parts...

01-03-2004, 02:55 PM	#52
bandaidwoman inadvertant tree hugger Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 728 Photos: 4	let's get one thing straight. Doctors get no kickbacks from ordering diagnositic tests. Legally it is not allowed. If a back surgeon somehow owns a MRI facility, he cannot refer any of his own patients to subsidise his MRI facility. In georgia the average plumber makes more than the average doctor, yet malpractice premiums are skyrocketing past what a doc can earn for a living. Two general surgeons here at the facility have already left the state when ST Paul, their malpractice carrier decided it wasn't profitable to be in malpractice. Both have never been sued successfully, both work 95-100 hours a week making no more than 140, 000 and the malpractice premiums were 160,000. They packed up and left. REMEMBER, IN THE HMO CAPITATED SYSTEM, DOCTORS GET PAID A FIXED FEE AND LESS IS PAID TO A DOCTOR FOR OrDERING MORE TESTS. The more a doctor orders in terms of tests, the less he or she makes. There is no financial incentive for ordering tests. A doctor gets punished for ordering tests, but tests need to be ordered... because many times they are necessary, and many times the patients demand it despite protests. In West Virginia, there are no cardiologists, since malpractice premiums are above what any cardiologist could make. If you have a heart attack, hope you get a good internist and a fast driver to an out of state hospital. By the way the average doc in Georgia makes $90,000, the average chiropracter (who doesn't have to get up in the middle of the night makes $100,000, and the average plumber makes $110,000 (at least he has to get up in the middle of the night! ) Of course they don't shoulder the medical school loans which are now averaging over $100,000. Not that docs are hurting, but there are easier ways to make the same amount. Most still love what they do. PS. pediatricians in South Georgia make $40,000 a year. My Orkin pest guy makes more than that. By the way, the aveage orthodontist with a 35 hour work week makes $350,000...just to give some perspective. Official Race Member of the Crank Crushing Rednecks Eat more mud, mountain bike until you die! XX Feminine power Last edited by bandaidwoman : 01-03-2004 at 03:08 PM.

01-03-2004, 03:43 PM	#54
Prince IronMagLabs Owner Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 37,397 Photos: 356	I wonder how much the average Plastic Surgeon makes! BOARD SPONSORS: MassNutrition.com - Discount Supplement Superstore IronMagLabs.com - Bodybuilding Nutrition AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders & Supplements CEMProducts.com - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclesProd.com - Steroids, Bodybuilding & Training Blog Maximizer.com - Maximum Strength for Maximum Performance MikeGetsRipped.com - The Original 'Get Ripped' Blog ProteinRoutine.com - Experiments in Healthy Living Follow on Twitter Join Facebook Group Befriend on Myspace

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