Thread: Time for a not-so-clean bulk?

Try keeping from the trans fats while looking for a food to bulk on. Try mudges corndogs

Corn dogs? eeeewww...

come on, can't anyone think of something tasty that isn't really "clean", but won't kill me?

I don't mind eating semi-crap food if it'll actually work.

Now, if only I could subsist on cheeseburgers, I'd die a happy man

It seems like what you are trying to do is effectively make a psychological shift regarding what you define as a 'clean food' and you need our help in choosing foods to add that are non-revolting.

I think you may find that the world is your oyster here and you are perhaps being too extreme about your restrictions given your situation and goals. Change your mindset about what constitutes cheating and you should be able to incorporate just about any food within the framework of your diet. You have already made it halfway by realizing what you are currently doing isn't even working and you seem to have a good enough understanding not to take it to an extreme level with milkshakes all day! To elaborate and offer a solution....

When I read your post I had to make a shift in my perspective to try and understand why an ecto like yourself didn't just eat more calories. The idea that your current diet is revolting wasn't enough. That fundamentally has little to do with it. I would have just suggested that you be creative with what you have to work with and improvise some new recipes, add spices etc. without changing all the foods. Look hard and try to find foods that are not somehow bodybuilder friendly. Short of completely overprocessed junk, trans fats etc, it is a tough thing to do. There are very few 'bad' foods.

But I could understand it when I realized how tough it is for you to gain muscle tissue and how disappointing it can be to add calories but only see bodyfat increase. As an endo it is different for me.

What I might suggest is for you to shift your perspective and think like an endomorph for a minute trying to keep fat gain at bay.

Successfully doing so might help you see that there are a plethora of ways that you can keep fat gain at bay that have nothing to do with your food choices. You could cycle carbohydrates/calorie. You could employ HIIT. You could try overfeeds involving high amounts of all three macronutrients. Good golly the list goes on...You can make other mental shifts too. The endo/ecto shift if just one salient point that I made up for the sake of example. Possibilities are endless.

Maybe you are already taking a lot of these steps, but I bet you are not taking as many as you could be given a strong motivatoin to stay away from ideas like this due to the possible threat of slower or nonexistant muscle gains. Afterall, the task of keeping fat gain at bay should not be so tough for you.

Hence my answer to your query: You can include darn near anything if you find it to be effective and can mentally work out a way to include it in your diet. It is modifying the mindset that adding barbeque sauce is somehow cheating that could go about as far as anything toward helping you imo. To me that is an absurd concept. You have nothing to lose experimenting with a much wider range of foods. Go for it! Pick a food you would really like to include in your diet on a regular basis and sensibly do so using your adept nutritional background free of the constraints that are holding you back now.

Originally posted by Cardinal
Change your mindset about what constitutes cheating and you should be able to incorporate just about any food within the framework of your diet.

I don´t agree with that.
Add more calories to your diet with complex carbs low G.I, like black beans.

I don´t believe in cardio either, most ppl don´t need it.

But hey, that´s just IMO.

Originally posted by Vieope
I don´t agree with that.
Add more calories to your diet with complex carbs low G.I, like black beans.

I don´t believe in cardio either, most ppl don´t need it.

But hey, that´s just IMO.

I agree

Eat more, 3000 cals is nothing. I could do that myself and still be looking for more. Keep eating clean and add more food is what I say.

Originally posted by Vieope
I don´t agree with that.
Add more calories to your diet with complex carbs low G.I, like black beans.

I don´t believe in cardio either, most ppl don´t need it.

But hey, that´s just IMO.

You might have slightly misunderstood me here. Adding energy intake will be an obvious necessity. And I agree that a wider range of low G.I. carbohydrates would be a safe and simple bet.

It is easier to suggest things like black beans that almost everyone would agree fall within the rubric of acceptable 'clean' foods. One point I am trying to make is that on some level, most foods that are not overly processed/complete junk fall within this category. It just may take a greater degree of ingenuity to find room for some foods than others. Doing so without reckless abandon and exercising control is clearly needed as well especially when you get to a grey area with regard to what 'you' define a clean food as.

And my reason for suggesting HIIT cardio has nothing to do with necessity. I realize 'cardio' is not a prerequisite for success here =D. That is not the point.

-Cardinal

Originally posted by Cardinal
One point I am trying to make is that on some level, most foods that are not overly processed/complete junk fall within this category.

Examples ...

Examples, by all means...

Why not take barbeque sauce since it was thought to be cheating. Afterall that did strike me as absurd, I said so. But it didn't strike many others that way clearly.

Off the top of my head most barbeque sauces found at the store are high in sugar, refined sugar at that and high in sodium. Some sport tons of high fructose corn syrup to boot. All reasons not to go overboard with it.

Some ways to sensibly include that in your diet without considering it cheating (changing your view of that food with respect to whether or not it is cheating)

1) Go to a healthfood store and find bbq sauce with a better nutrient profile. That could be costly you say. Then...
2) Make your own. Look at the basic ingredients. Realize one of those ingredients is tomatoes. Tomatoes are high in sugar, not great you say, but like other fruits, have numerous benefits that outweigh the negatives (imo). But that takes work and many people can't cook/don't want to go through the trouble. Good point...
3) Lets just take regular old bbq sauce off the shelf then for simplicity. How on earth would you use that and consider it clean. Reduce sodium in other areas of your diet to allow for more bbq sauce on a given day. Incorporate some type of refeed into your bulking plan (through cycling of nutrients perhaps) and use it there.
4) Obviously some ways to get bbq sauce in the diet (like making your own) are just much more sensible and easy to implement than others.

I really think I could go through this little mind exercise with most foods. Now if I had to do it with twinkies, it might be pushing it a bit, lol, but a good exercise nonetheless. A lot of it with me is about pushing boundaries/comfort zones and keeping an open mind with respect to what can be seen as acceptable. See what I am getting at?

You can do that with sodium, eat in something that you like and reduce in something that doens´t taste that good. I agree. The problem is that most cheat meals, you can´t do that.
Let´s take high fat ice cream as an example, there is no way to reduce in other things of your diet.
You might ask, how come ? Because, when you cheat you are not going to eat 15 g of ice cream, or 10 g of a McDonald´s. You are going to eat a lot more than that. You gonna fill yourself with bad food, that is bad here, there and everywhere. "See what I am getting at?"

That is a good example and I see your point. Thinking in term of absolutes and comparing, say, the general category of fruits/veggies with ice cream, it would be quite hard indeed to justify choosing the latter over the former. I am not advocating that. I am just advocating the use of an incredibly wide array of foods by adjusting your concept of clean. The last thing I would want to do is steer people away foods that are generally deemed to be good and wholesome. But it is not for me to decide what another should and should not choose to eat, especially considering I feel most any food can play a role in yielding the desired results in question (gains in lbm with minimal fat for example).

In the case of ice cream, I would agree. I am not going to eat a tiny cup full. I am more prone to go for several cups at least or a big bowl. So the same technique that would work for barbeque sauce might fail miserably for getting ice cream in your diet. Little compromises always need to be made.

In the case of good ole ice cream, why not make it a planned overfeed. Videlicit, your goal would be to increase fat mass as well as muscle mass over a short time frame, later employing a more 'strict' or controlled period of underfeeding. A now common idea for achieving gains in lbm with minimal fat accetion would thus be an option. The specifics of the plan do not so much matter so long as you can rationalize it to move toward your goal. Voila, you have ice cream in your diet.

Are you making some health compromises by taking that route, perhaps (probably) yes. Do I go out and buy ice cream to eat regularly. Nope! But if I wanted to make it work, I darn sure would! Think priorities.

But you might come back and say, that is just like a rockin' cheat day. I would say, no it isn't! Because you are finding a way to incorporate satisfying amount of a given food (ice cream) into your diet on a perhaps consistent basis and still achieve your ultimate goals, goals you might not have even achieved without its inclusion (For whatever reason).

Originally posted by Cardinal
But you might come back and say, that is just like a rockin' cheat day. I would say, no it isn't! Because you are finding a way to incorporate satisfying amount of a given food (ice cream) into your diet on a perhaps consistent basis and still achieve your ultimate goals, goals you might not have even achieved without its inclusion (For whatever reason).

Yes, it is. That is the whole concept about cheat meals, to allow you to continue motivated to your goals while making theses "little" mistakes.

Originally posted by Vieope
Yes, it is. That is the whole concept about cheat meals, to allow you to continue motivated to your goals while making theses "little" mistakes.

I think we have hit at the crux of the matter. I can now understand where our differences in opinion lie. And that is a comforting thought. No need to run around in circles.

I have to say that is good to argue with you.
I hope too that BlueCorsair benefit from these informations.
Don´t want the guy throwing away 4 motnhs of hard work.

Lol, I am curious what Corsair has to say about all this (if he even read all this mumbo jumbo). Maybe he was just looking for some other food to eat for a while. Haha.

I should probably question my own perspective on it all. No need to blow things out of proportion when a simple answer might do.

I'm with Cardinal on this

I don't gain weight well. I am a pretty rotten ecto. Regular "clean" foods in terms of oats/yams/eggs/lean meat/and 20,000 pounds of whey isn't working anymore, and it's getting hard to justify the high expense of all this "good" food when I'm no longer getting any benefits from it.

3000 calories is *hard* for me to eat in one day. And I don't mean hard by "I'm too lazy". I may be lazy when it comes to my university classes, but not my body

According to some studies published by the Canadian version of the FDA, the average sized man eats around 2500-2600 calories per day. I'm already 500 over that, and I'm barely half the size of the "average" sized man. Eating 3500-4000 calories a day for someone like myself won't happen unless I switch to deep fried chinese food, which isn't going to happen

As to my attitude on cheating - I'd love to cheat. I just know that I've already gone from 11% BF to 13% on "clean" foods, and even though I've put on 14 pounds, I still don't look terribly... erm... masculine. Ouch. However, just to be semi-humourous, if slamming down a burger or two everyday works, I'd be willing to try it.

I do NOT however have time to eat six meals - I'm not awake for long enough during the day. Due to my time schedule regarding my university, it's a struggle to get in five meals already. Each meal is around 550-600 calories, and I can't stomach any more quite frankly.

I am indeed looking for something else to eat. Preferably something that's less expensive, and less time-consuming to prepare. In the summer, it'll be a different tune, but right now, I don't have the luxury, or the funding to be spending my free time finding/buying/cooking food. Like I said, maybe all I need is a few "overfeed" or "cheat" days now and then to stimulate growth. Personally, I'm convinced with the bone structure that I have (6-inch total circumference wrists for example) that my almost-15-inch-arms are the best they're ever going to be.

To make my own longwinded story short, I want to know what I can eat apart from the "traditional" clean foods. Since I'm an ecto, perhaps I won't suffer so much from a little less-than-ideal eating. Right now, I'm pretty much ready to try anything that doesn't bankrupt me.

To cut to the point...

Get rid of the oats for now. They provide too strong of a satiety signal. You don't want more bloat than necessary. Or keep em and eat 'em dry. Grind them up even. Forget all the beans and other lowest G.I. carbs. They contain too much fiber and slow your digestion. More bloat = bad. You are trying to eat more rather than less, no?

A) Consume carbohydrates and a lot of them. Don't worry so much about the low G.I. factor as you will get a high glycemic load from eating a lot of carbs anyway.
B) Stick protein around 1g/lb lbm (or more if it doesn't fill you up too much! Keep in mind that satiety factor of protein).
C) Use lots of malto/dext around your workout.


You need some cheap foods to help you along.

1) Olive oil.
2) Rice
3) Pasta (don't worry about whole wheat, too much fiber= too much bloat).
4)Meats. (Go with minimum amount if you want cheapest option). This is where all the expense is.
5)Buy nuts in bulk (peanuts, almonds, cashews etc).
6)Drink lots of milk.
7)Drink more calories in general.
8)Buy other bulk grains. There are tons to choose from. Try couscous for example.

Anything like peanut butter would be great, but remember that peanut butter may fill you up too quickly. It might be easier to use lots of oils like olive oil and flax oil. Try coconut milk too!

Ways to add calories. If you like pasta, mix in 3-4 T olive oil with some tomato sauce and eat up for dinner. There is ~400-500 right there.

Just don't shoot yourself in the foot as you may be able to sneak in more calories than you think. Choices 1-3 I listed are dirt cheap (literally).

this is what I did:

1)3000 clean cals is nothing!! You have to do better than that as you can easily add more protein. I am dieting and eating 3800 clean cals. So you can do better.

2) when I was bulking I was up at about 4500 clean cals and then to get the rest of the food in I was eating things like thomas english muffins with butter and jam,bread with my meals and cereal like shredded wheat or even raisen bran. I would eat all my cals, especially the protein, and then start eating whatever I could get in.

3) Be honest about your gains!! are you geting to fat or are you putting on good size? I was really honest with myself and if I felt I was getting a little sloppy I'd just tighten up my diet for a week or two and get things under control or I'd up my cardio a bit (I do cardio year round and really believed that it helped me put on some quality size and stay leaner this time around).

Originally posted by Cardinal
To cut to the point...

Get rid of the oats for now. They provide too strong of a satiety signal. You don't want more bloat than necessary. Or keep em and eat 'em dry. Grind them up even. Forget all the beans and other lowest G.I. carbs. They contain too much fiber and slow your digestion. More bloat = bad. You are trying to eat more rather than less, no?

A) Consume carbohydrates and a lot of them. Don't worry so much about the low G.I. factor as you will get a high glycemic load from eating a lot of carbs anyway.
B) Stick protein around 1g/lb lbm (or more if it doesn't fill you up too much! Keep in mind that satiety factor of protein).
C) Use lots of malto/dext around your workout.


You need some cheap foods to help you along.

1) Olive oil.
2) Rice
3) Pasta (don't worry about whole wheat, too much fiber= too much bloat).
4)Meats. (Go with minimum amount if you want cheapest option). This is where all the expense is.
5)Buy nuts in bulk (peanuts, almonds, cashews etc).
6)Drink lots of milk.
7)Drink more calories in general.
8)Buy other bulk grains. There are tons to choose from. Try couscous for example.

Anything like peanut butter would be great, but remember that peanut butter may fill you up too quickly. It might be easier to use lots of oils like olive oil and flax oil. Try coconut milk too!

Ways to add calories. If you like pasta, mix in 3-4 T olive oil with some tomato sauce and eat up for dinner. There is ~400-500 right there.

Just don't shoot yourself in the foot as you may be able to sneak in more calories than you think. Choices 1-3 I listed are dirt cheap (literally).

Great way to add some good quality fat

JMO - but I would still stick with oats, whole grains, brown rice etc. and as Funky said - after the clean foods then add in a few things in.

yeah, after a certain point it gets crazy to try and add more protein becasue it is hard to tell what you are accimilating and what you are not. That is why I would keep my protein intake high and get more cals from fats and carbs. I ate a lot of nuts, pasta and rice.

Originally posted by Jodi
Great way to add some good quality fat

JMO - but I would still stick with oats, whole grains, brown rice etc. and as Funky said - after the clean foods then add in a few things in.

I will not say a word in this thread anymore.
You should do the same

Originally posted by Vieope
I will not say a word in this thread anymore.
You should do the same

You don't know me very well yet do you?

I don't shut up for anyone.

Originally posted by Jodi
You don't know me very well yet do you?

I don't shut up for anyone.

I was the same a few posts ago

Ok, I'll talk again

I'm making no gains at all - at least not for a couple of weeks - I thought I addressed that. I'm already taking in around 230 grams of protein per day, which is a ton.

And 4500 calories, unless it comes in a smaller... "size" isn't much of a hope for me! I have a problem getting down 600 calories at a meal, 4500 would be ludicrous.

Honest about my gains? I'm stronger than I look. I'm no he-man, but that's the only real benefit i've noticed. I haven't "gotten fat", but my bf% has gone from 11% where I started to about 13% now.

Most of my gains, as I've said many times, I attribute to the powerful creatine supp I'm on. I'm more or less a creatine "non-responder" and the high GI triggers built into the one I do take I need to get any benefit from Creatine at all.

Getting 4500 calories a day from oats, lean meat, etc? I'm afraid I don't see that as very realistic given my current life style. Split over 5 meals, that's 900 calories per meal, and that just isn't something I can handle feasibly. 2 cups of oats, 2 tbs of Flax, and a crud-load of protein would be neccessary for that.

Originally posted by Vieope
I will not say a word in this thread anymore.
You should do the same




You don't know me very well yet do you?

I don't shut up for anyone.

Don't worry, I tend to follow my own advice. I'll be fat and happy in short order and there will be ample time to gloat. Others will go down with me, except these guys are ectomorphic in nature. I have an advantage in gaining fat mass and the appetite to back it up!

At least I didn't throw butter and lard in there as a staple. Hmm, come to think of it some good ole heavy cream might be a tasty addition to the fabulous massive/supergainer shake.

Serious question. Hopefully not too off topic. Maybe it will lead to greater understanding of all this. What does it feel like to be full most of the time? I am asking the ectos here.

I can understand it is not a food volume issue! I can eat until I pop and won't get a decent satiety signal from my little old head.

The closest I have come is literally making myself sick to the stomach. Is that what it feels like to be an ecto trying to add calories? Yesterday for example, I knocked down 6000 kcals in about 3 hours in an attempt to reach satiety and get my mind off of eating. Too much of it was from peanut butter which made me ill to the stomach (slightly so). But with different food choices I still think I may have been able to max out on volume before feeling full.

Maybe this question is better addressed looking at it from a biochemical standpoint. (CCK, ghrelin, leptin etc), but I just wanted to get some real world feedback and maybe understand more about where you are coming from here.

I have tried rather hard to get my caloric averages down to where your max seems to be (3000) and find it takes will power to do that even.

Damn. When he said 3000 calories was a lot, I cringed. I can eat 3000 calories for breakfast on a hungry day.

What really puzzles me about Cardinals posts is that they don´t seem to have a goal, an objective. They are not to prove an idea. Just to complicate things. They don´t have base in any consistent idea.

Einstein once said that if you can´t express a thought in a very simple way is that you don´t understand the whole concept of the thing.

Originally posted by camarosuper6
Damn. When he said 3000 calories was a lot, I cringed. I can eat 3000 calories for breakfast on a hungry day.

Are you 142 pounds and 5'6/5'7? No.

Come down to my level if you can