Thread: 1 month!

Alright diet!! Look at some of the cutting diets in this section. EC, HIIT, and what ever weights you normally do.

Definately start eating every 3 hours. around 6 times a day. EFAs are definately needed.

What do you guys think about the cardio, though? Should I keep it on a higher endurance level, say jogging, or intensity circuits?

HIIT cardio is the best way to burn fat and preserve lean body mass...

Ok. I read some stuff on HIIT. The thing that got me is this: the article says when you do cardio on an empty stomach, i.e., before breakfast, the body uses muscle as it's source of energy. I've read elsewhere that the body normally uses the food you eat as fuel, say you eat and then run. I've also read that in the morning the glycogen levels of the body are low and the body doesn't use sugar, because the body sugar is fairly depleted from the overnight fast, rather, the body uses stored fat as the energy. Wouldn't that make more sense? Or is that only when it comes to HIIT and not low-intensity running?

I like to run in the morning before breakfast because I feel that running in the morning uses stored fat deposits, rather than muscle... I want, again, to lose fat and keep the muscle I have, and not lose my muscle mass, which is why I like to do low intensity stuff.

Well?

I would never do any kind of exercise on a completely empty stomach, including HIIT. You can eat a small meal and do HIIT an hour later. with HIIT you are not concerned with how many cals, etc. you are burning during the actually session but with the increase in the resting metabolic rate for many hours after the session. increasing the RMR will stored fats on the body...

^^ On point 200%
I am also with LAM on the argument that you should NEVER exercise before food...your'e on there for 2 HOURS, I can only imagine what kind of catabolic nightmare you are putting your body through....Your body NEEDS to be fed upon waking, and you're presently starving it for two hours on a daily basis

Also, cardio is NOT necessary. I don't know how these myths arise, because you can get 'a toned stomach' by adjusting your diet alone. Personally I'm doing one session of HIIT a week.

I also don't see how cereal or whole wheat toast and jam are good choices for breakfast. You really seem to be prioritising exercise over diet, when really all you have to do is look at your diet and clean it up in order to lose fat. How many meals do you eat a day? If all you eat is the stuff you listed, you're definitely going to be saying farewell to muscle mass....there is no need to do 4 hours of cardio and 1-2 hours of weight training (honestly you shouldn't be in there for any more than 1 hour, tops), sorry to be an ass, but, dont' you have a job or something? That much physical activity, coupled with a diet that doesn't look like it's making up for calories at all, is going to leave you looking like a toothpick

Be patient, and give yourself more than a month. It seems like your'e doing WAY too much, way too soon, without the correct dietary knowledge

Peace.

Originally Posted by LAM

I would never do any kind of exercise on a completely empty stomach, including HIIT. You can eat a small meal and do HIIT an hour later. with HIIT you are not concerned with how many cals, etc. you are burning during the actually session but with the increase in the resting metabolic rate for many hours after the session. increasing the RMR will stored fats on the body...

From: http://davedraper.com/interval-cardio-description.html

"It does take some experimentation for a few sessions to locate optimal intensity increments to begin with as well as the actual intervals.

You do want to be pleasantly fatigued but not "exhausted" to point of not being able to complete entire session. You should finish with your final 20 second "sprint" being the strongest.

And the "cool-down" for last 3 minutes will leave you with that "high." Best to do this right after your weight training or in the morning BEFORE eating."

He seems to disagree with you, Lam. I'm not necessarily talking about calories later. IT's just that since glycogen levels in the body are very low in the morning, HIIT would be useful because instead of using carbs from food (i.e., running after lunch), the body uses stored fat. And since weight training is anaerobic, calories are depleted leaving an optimal zone for the body to burn fat; so running after a workout is good as well, methinks. Also, isn't it true that after a nice HIIT session in the morning, your metabolism will sky-rocket and stay pretty high day-round?

Diet planning is the key. I do cardio because I enjoy running. I have to ask though, you are doing 3 - 4 hours walking a day on a treadmill? I would be concerned that you can keep motivation for the long term (or your sanity). That is a large portion of your life spent on a tread mill. You can get there on diet alone, but cardio makes it easier. Is there a physical reason you can't "pick up the pace" and go a little harder?

All right! A Draper fan. I love his email newsletter.

Please keep in mind that Dave Draper is extremely old-school. I wouldn't take any of his advice on that website at all. Plus, he probably has enough muscle to spare anyway, something you might not have the luxury of right now.

The whole 'cardio is better first thing in the morning' argument is dumb to me. First of all, if you are depleting calories and/or carbs your glycogen levels are gonna be extremely low throughout the day anyway. Secondly, the belief that time-specific cardio will target fat specifically is idiotic- okay, so your body doesn't burn glycogen, but surely you must know that your body preferentially wants to get rid of MUSCLE as opposed to fat. Muscle is deemed as unnecessary for the body, which is why your body tends to fight any muscle-building efforts you embark on. Imagine what happens when you step on a treadmill with depleted glycogen levels, while your body is starving to be fed after an 8-10 hour fast? Do you really think it's gonna preferentially burn fat and leave muscle mass alone? FEED THE MUSCLE.

Yes, it is true that HIIT in the morning will make you feel good throughout the day, but who says you need to do it before eating to experience those effects?

No offence but your arguments are pretty outdated in my humble opinion. Bodybuilding and bodybuilding science advances so much every day that I find it hard, as a young bodybuilder, to accept Dave Draper's 'knowhow'...you'd be nmuch better off listening to someone like Don Alessi or Christian Thibaudeau

Peace.

Originally Posted by QuadDude

From: http://davedraper.com/interval-cardio-description.html

"It does take some experimentation for a few sessions to locate optimal intensity increments to begin with as well as the actual intervals.

You do want to be pleasantly fatigued but not "exhausted" to point of not being able to complete entire session. You should finish with your final 20 second "sprint" being the strongest.

And the "cool-down" for last 3 minutes will leave you with that "high." Best to do this right after your weight training or in the morning BEFORE eating."

He seems to disagree with you, Lam. I'm not necessarily talking about calories later. IT's just that since glycogen levels in the body are very low in the morning, HIIT would be useful because instead of using carbs from food (i.e., running after lunch), the body uses stored fat. And since weight training is anaerobic, calories are depleted leaving an optimal zone for the body to burn fat; so running after a workout is good as well, methinks. Also, isn't it true that after a nice HIIT session in the morning, your metabolism will sky-rocket and stay pretty high day-round?

yes, it is true about the boost to the metabolism as that is the main point of HIIT. but regarding the info from DaveDraper. cortisol levels are extremely high in the am, which means trainining on an empty stomach will be severely catabolic. when using anabolics and androgens cortisol is surpressed due to the high levels of these compounds in the bloodstream. if training natural I would not to HIIT in the am on a completely empty stomach.

at the bare minimum I would consume 10 grams of L-Glutamine and 10-20 grams of BCAA's (or a scoop of whey protein) then do my am HIIT cardio session...

Originally Posted by Premo55

No offence but your arguments are pretty outdated in my humble opinion. Bodybuilding and bodybuilding science advances so much every day that I find it hard, as a young bodybuilder, to accept Dave Draper's 'knowhow'...you'd be nmuch better off listening to someone like Don Alessi or Christian Thibaudeau

I'm not arguing, just saying. I've read that. Tom Venuto is another who claims that cardio in the morning is an effective thing for the body. Also, Shawn Phillips is another who thinks that cardio in the am is a good thing.

I also understand that Cortisol levels are very high in the am. However, HIIT sessions last between 5 and 30 minutes, depending on the person's stamina and such. It's not like I'd HIIT for 2 hours. And now that I think of it, 2-4 hours of cardio is effing stupid. That's why I came here: to get some opinions. My main goal is fat loss for now: muscle gain second, though muscle again is still important (and I still weight-train 3 times a week). And I do think I'll lower it down a notch and put it into a better perspective. 45 mins-1 hour workouts sound good? At the most minimum...5 minutes HIIT before breakfast isn't too bad, is it?

As for the diet, I've been working on it. And yes, I do have a job . And it does interfer sometimes. The toast and jam thing is when I'm on the run to get to work. I have to walk, so, I get up, shower, get dressed, and eat. I don't have the luxury of time to prepare an omelet or something of that nature. But I never did mention lunch or supper, or even snacks. I love tuna. A lot, and I do snack on a can of tuna (is one can too much, or what?). I also love veggies and fruits and those essentially make up the snacks. Salads are awesome too. Sometimes for lunch I have a salad, with a whole can of tuna tossed into the mix, and crushed flax seed, with some lemon juice and safflower oil for dressing. That doesn't sound to muscle-killing to me... And supper, veggies, and lean protein (turkey, chicken, etc). I've been watching my diet a LOT now, and I have been making changes.

Shawn Phillips: http://www.musclemedia.com/training/hiit.asp

"To prevent overtraining, try to incorporate the program on your weight training "off days." Your HIIT program will likely be most effective if performed first thing in the morning on an empty stomach, but if you can't do it in the a.m., do it at noon, night, whenever!"

Sigh, confusion? I mean, I have plenty of time to get this right. The 1 month thing is something that's not too, too important when I think of it. What if, say, I were to HIIT in the morning for 10 minutes? That's not too much a stress, is it? 5-10 mins won't kill the muscle. But what about a mid-day, end-day HIIT session?

How does this look:
Day 1 - 5-10 Minute HIIT session in morning. Biceps & Back workout.
Day 2 - 5-10 Minute HIIT session in morning. Relax day for muscle. 5-10 Minute HIIT session after lunch or before supper, or after (what makes more sense?)
Day 3 - 5-10 Minute HIIT session in morning. Chest & Tricep workout. 5-10 Minute HIIT session after workout.
Day 4 - 5-10 Minute HIIT session in morning. Relax day for muscle.
Day 5 - 5-10 Minute HIIT session in Morning. Shoulders & Leg workout.

Again, I'm 18, 5'10, 190 lbs. I don't want to exert myself. But hey, I'm optimistic.

Why on earth would you do 2 HIIT sessions in one day? Honestly it doesn't feel like you're taking what me and LAM have to offer at all....

First of all it's highly unnecessary for you to do cardio every single day, it's something you should add in after you've tweaked your diet as much as you humanly can and you don't wish to drop calories anymore. Personally I do cardio once, twice a week at most, and weight train with high intensity while keeping my diet as clean as possible, watching my calories instead of doing cardio. By not allowing yourself any rest days you're surely going to overtrain.

If we've said time and time again that cardio before food is not the best idea, and you insist on doing it knowing that it is potentially catabolic, then I don't really see the point of you starting this post

I'm sorry if I sound harsh but really as I said you're taking this too far, too soon, you don't want to end up as a pile of bones

After all, Shawn Phillips himself said "To prevent overtraining, try to incorporate the program on your weight training "off days."

Peace.

I neglected cardio for the most part when I first started doing this bodybuilding lifestyle stuff cause my job was already tough on my body and I was on my feet the whole time moving around so I figured that was good enough

my body was shedding fat like crazy so I didnt' see a problem

I quit that job and besides from lifting I was very inactive for around 3 weeks...my fat loss and weight loss completely stalled. Take note I had been calorie/carb cycling and tapering the whole time, I figured my metabolism was doing fine.

At this point I don't know if I should be worried, frustrated or just patient....because while I do see the changes in my body...my weight and bf measurements haven't changed in a month. And there's still tons of fat around my abs. Everywhere else I would say I'm getting too skinny for my liking, but my belly is soft as baby cheeks if I'm just standing relaxed.

I eat so clean it's disgusting truly. So obviously I'm thinking the change in activity levels has a lot to do with this. I originally dropped my calories to make up for that

but then I started reading Venuto's book again...punched myself...burn the fat, don't starve it. Up your calories and be more active.

If that takes cardio sessions to make up for the sedentary time around your workouts...then so be it. I'm waiting tables now and on the weekends I'm insanely active, but during the week, on off days I try to throw in an early morning cardio because I feel like crap just sitting around all day when I still got this fat around my abs that won't go away and makes me look retarted (slim but muscular all around...but around my abs? Makes me look stupid, that's why I started doing this, to get rid of that shape)

The early morning fasted hiit is up in the air for the most part. I'm trying it and I'm gonna see how it goes. Tons of people do it and get results...the ones that refute it present theories as to why it's not a good idea...but they're not the ones that have tried it. Theories on both sides make sense. But in the end, it's results that count.

There are also tons of people that shun cardio altogether. But if you're like me and you're having problems getting the last bit of noticeable fat to melt away from your mid-section...and your diet is in order, then you might as well try everything you can to burn it off.

I would not do cardio every day, especially HIIT. it's very taxing on the CNS.

if you are looking for major fat loss manipulating your diet is the best way to lose a lot of fat and preserve lean body mass. cardio should be used only to acclerate fat loss.

I definitely wouldn't do cardio every day. I mean, I've heard of competitive bodybuilders doing that pre-contest, but I'm by no means in that category, I have no desire to ever compete

I just want that damn fat to go away from my abs so I can start bulking because putting on muscle for me is easy as all hell...I like working out...I like eating, and the muscle just keeps on coming, it's much more rewarding that slow ass fat loss

^ Determination, I'm kind of in the same boat as you right now...Which is why I've added in one session of HIIT a week....I also detest sitting around and not doing anything, but at the same time I don't want to risk LBM loss by staying in the gym every chance I get, seeing as how carb cycling already has me on a caloric deficit. Maybe I should just walk around the track or something

Peace.