Thread: Satiety and Binge Control

Originally Posted by Cardinal

4) Plan to eat as often as possible. I find eating roughly hourly to work well. If time constraints are a problem, simply pick meals that take less than a minute to eat for example.

why would you eat every hour?

Originally Posted by bulletproof1

why would you eat every hour?

Not to mention that it would be a real pain in the ass to arrange for so many itty-bitty meals.

Mainly because I find that I often get very hungry if I go longer than that and have no trouble fitting in a minimum of 10-12 meals in a day. When I am eating a high amount of calories each day but want each one of them to be in the 300-400 calorie range to limit binging, it necessitates a large number of meals.

My idea is to eat as often as possible. I certainly wouldn't expect everyone to eat each hour. I am just suggesting feedings as often as possible as opposed to the 3 squares a day type plan (some people do very well on this type of setup too). If I have something that takes my mind off of eating so that I can make it 2-3 hours, all the better. No need to be anal or stress over it. I still end up with 10+ meals/day. Its just not a burden to me in the slightest. My appetite doesn't really diminish ever and I have a tremendous eating capacity.

As far as the meals being itty bitty. Doesn't necessarily have to be that way. One meal for me would be 2 cups oatmeal + one can tuna + large helping salad mix for example. That might put me at say 350kcals/meal. That is what I see as normal. I am trying to avoid the super-huge volume meals that I ate when I used to binge so often. Digestive system is thanking me now.

My initial thinking was that if eating every hour on the hour doesn't sound extremely appealing and you wouldn't jump at the chance to make sacrifices necessary to do that, chances are you probably don't have an extreme binging problem either. JMO.

eating every hour doesnt even make sense although i would like to understand your point of view. you cant wait 2.5 hours between meals? that is how long it takes your body to digest a meal. it seems strange that would write tips about binge control but seem to constantly eat throughout the day. 10 -12 meals @ 300 - 400 calories per meal is 3000 to 4800 calories. and this is a cut that you're on?

yes, eating 5-7 meals a day is good advice. eating every hour however is poor advice. you are eating your next meal before your body can even digest the meal prior.

If you're interested in gaining a ton of excess bodyfat, go ahead and eat every hour.
Cool with me.

Originally Posted by bulletproof1

eating every hour doesnt even make sense although i would like to understand your point of view. you cant wait 2.5 hours between meals? that is how long it takes your body to digest a meal. it seems strange that would write tips about binge control but seem to constantly eat throughout the day. 10 -12 meals @ 300 - 400 calories per meal is 3000 to 4800 calories. and this is a cut that you're on?

yes, eating 5-7 meals a day is good advice. eating every hour however is poor advice. you are eating your next meal before your body can even digest the meal prior.

Oh, I can definitely wait 2.5 hours between meals or longer if necessary. But in a general sense I have found that as time between meals increases (and meal size in terms of calories and food volume increases other things held constant) the tendency to overeat is greatly amplified. My idea is also to distribute calories as evenly as possible throughout the day. Same premise. In the evenings for example when hunger is strongest for me, I would find it nearly torture in comparison to have to wait 2.5 hours to eat again from a psychological standpoint.

I guess to understand where I am coming from you might think of having to wait 5-6 hours between meals versus 2-3 for a normal person. The way a 'normal' person would feel after 5-6 hours no food, well, I feel that way after 2-3. Always have.

I believe I have seen the 2.5 hour figure or thereabouts for digestion as well. I think it might be more accurate to say that is a decent average time taken for gastric emptying (digestion can easily last 8 hours+ etc.). And I do want to eat again before gastric emptying finishes. That way any hunger associated with having an empty stomach is a non-issue most of the time. Exactly my point!

I am actually bulking now and do plan to eat at the 4000 calorie level as long as possible. To put it into perspective, I have had difficulty controlling calories in the past even up to 5000-6000 kcals per day. Using the above strategies, I can drop calories down about 1200 and still maintain virtually total control. Is it fun? Hell no, but I can do it and stick to the diet sans binging. And eating as often as possible is a big part of that solution for me.

Originally Posted by trHawT

If you're interested in gaining a ton of excess bodyfat, go ahead and eat every hour.
Cool with me.

Gaining bodyweight, fat or otherwise, is determined mainly by difference in energy intake and energy expenditure (running hypercaloric diet). Meal frequency is independent of this. Your logic is even worse than mine!

Originally Posted by Cardinal

Oh, I can definitely wait 2.5 hours between meals or longer if necessary. But in a general sense I have found that as time between meals increases (and meal size in terms of calories and food volume increases other things held constant) the tendency to overeat is greatly amplified. My idea is also to distribute calories as evenly as possible throughout the day. Same premise. In the evenings for example when hunger is strongest for me, I would find it nearly torture in comparison to have to wait 2.5 hours to eat again from a psychological standpoint.

I guess to understand where I am coming from you might think of having to wait 5-6 hours between meals versus 2-3 for a normal person. The way a 'normal' person would feel after 5-6 hours no food, well, I feel that way after 2-3. Always have.

I believe I have seen the 2.5 hour figure or thereabouts for digestion as well. I think it might be more accurate to say that is a decent average time taken for gastric emptying (digestion can easily last 8 hours+ etc.). And I do want to eat again before gastric emptying finishes. That way any hunger associated with having an empty stomach is a non-issue most of the time. Exactly my point!

I am actually bulking now and do plan to eat at the 4000 calorie level as long as possible. To put it into perspective, I have had difficulty controlling calories in the past even up to 5000-6000 kcals per day. Using the above strategies, I can drop calories down about 1200 and still maintain virtually total control. Is it fun? Hell no, but I can do it and stick to the diet sans binging. And eating as often as possible is a big part of that solution for me.



Gaining bodyweight, fat or otherwise, is determined mainly by difference in energy intake and energy expenditure (running hypercaloric diet). Meal frequency is independent of this. Your logic is even worse than mine!

Don't get mad, bro! You didn't even mention your training, just your idea of dieting. Anyway, how much do you weigh, and what is your current bodyfat percentage? Curious.

What are your stats, bro?

im with you trhawt. this guy isnt even giving his body time to digest a full meal. dude is just piling meal on top of meal.

piling meal on top of meal = binge eating = fat

Originally Posted by trHawT

Don't get mad, bro! You didn't even mention your training, just your idea of dieting. Anyway, how much do you weigh, and what is your current bodyfat percentage? Curious.

Right now, morning bodyweight is around 205, 6'2". Bodyfat percentage. Not sure. Waist measures 34-37 inches, so probably 15%+. Training plan is roughly 5x per week, plan to do as much work lifting as possible while still making consistent gains in strength/size. High volume/high frequency to build work capacity. Protein intake very high to max thermic effects. Fat low to moderate, rest carbs.

piling meal on top of meal = binge eating = fat

Logically, I am still stuck with this reasoning.

1) For max satiety, need maximum food volume up to digestive tolerance and maximum caloric intake up to excessive fat gain.
2)For max food volume, spread volume of foood over largest number of meals possible. Makes digestion much easier. It is difficult to eat high volume food without a large number of meals.
3) To minimize binging tendency, each meal should be relatively small in terms of calories. I personally like 300-400. As calories from protein/cho increase/meal, so increases the tendency to overeat and binge mainly due to stronger fluctuations in insulin levels (can't correct by adding fiber/fat, at least I can't).
4) Other things being equal it is much easier for me to put the fork down after consuming a lower number of cho/protein grams/meal. Control over binging is increased, not decreased.
5) To eradicate the binging feeling I get during and after eating, all I have to do is quit long enough for insulin levels to normalize and for all other effects to normalize (flavor, mouth feel of food etc). An hour between meals is plenty long for this. Subjectively, I then no longer have the desire to consume a whole gallon worth of oats for example, but can be satisfied with less. That is the sort of control I am looking for and have achieved (most of the time).

Originally Posted by Cardinal

Right now, morning bodyweight is around 205, 6'2". Bodyfat percentage. Not sure. Waist measures 34-37 inches, so probably 15%+. Training plan is roughly 5x per week, plan to do as much work lifting as possible while still making consistent gains in strength/size. High volume/high frequency to build work capacity. Protein intake very high to max thermic effects. Fat low to moderate, rest carbs.



Logically, I am still stuck with this reasoning.

1) For max satiety, need maximum food volume up to digestive tolerance and maximum caloric intake up to excessive fat gain.
2)For max food volume, spread volume of foood over largest number of meals possible. Makes digestion much easier. It is difficult to eat high volume food without a large number of meals.
3) To minimize binging tendency, each meal should be relatively small in terms of calories. I personally like 300-400. As calories from protein/cho increase/meal, so increases the tendency to overeat and binge mainly due to stronger fluctuations in insulin levels (can't correct by adding fiber/fat, at least I can't).
4) Other things being equal it is much easier for me to put the fork down after consuming a lower number of cho/protein grams/meal. Control over binging is increased, not decreased.
5) To eradicate the binging feeling I get during and after eating, all I have to do is quit long enough for insulin levels to normalize and for all other effects to normalize (flavor, mouth feel of food etc). An hour between meals is plenty long for this. Subjectively, I then no longer have the desire to consume a whole gallon worth of oats for example, but can be satisfied with less. That is the sort of control I am looking for and have achieved (most of the time).

i have never heard of anyone eating 12 meals a day but hey if it works for you knock yourself out.

Originally Posted by Cardinal

Mainly because I find that I often get very hungry if I go longer than that and have no trouble fitting in a minimum of 10-12 meals in a day.

if you are hungry an hour after eating logic would dictate that the caloric content of those meals is insufficient...

the body does not begin to send "starvation" signals until the lower GI is empty which is roughly 2-3 hours after a meal depending on the nutritional content of that meal. eating that frequently will also have no positive effect on increasing muscle protein synthesis (MPS). MPS is increased in skeletal muscle each time there is a spike in amino acid concentration. if AA concentration is constant there are no spikes...

if i eat 12 oz of chicken as a meal...30 minutes later im hungry. Theres gotta be carbs in a meal for me to be full for 2-3 hours.

Originally Posted by LAM

if you are hungry an hour after eating logic would dictate that the caloric content of those meals is insufficient...

the body does not begin to send "starvation" signals until the lower GI is empty which is roughly 2-3 hours after a meal depending on the nutritional content of that meal. eating that frequently will also have no positive effect on increasing muscle protein synthesis (MPS). MPS is increased in skeletal muscle each time there is a spike in amino acid concentration. if AA concentration is constant there are no spikes...

One would think that logically increasing calories from an insufficient level per meal to a sufficient level per meal would solve the issue of hunger after only an hour allowing for longer time between feedings. But for me, insulin is a larger factor here than caloric content. The extra calories don't make up for the fluctuation induced hunger. Even 600-700 calorie meals cause a greater binging tendency than 300-400 for me. Incidentally meals using say 800-1200 calories cause an even worse reaction. I am hungry both while insulin is rising to its full extent, then even more so when it bottoms out. Unfortunately fat has a very poor acute effect on hunger for me so I can't fix the problem by subbing fat for protein/cho.

Regarding the hunger signals, I don't believe the stomach sends signals in an on/off switch manner but rather as a continuum starting post-prandially and amplifying until next meal. The fuller the GI tract is, the better the appetite suppression (solely from a food volume perspective). Once even a small amount of that food makes it out of the stomach/GI, there is room for more and a person with a strong appetite would then want to ingest more. Translation: appetite flares up. Usually happens within the hour for me.

Also, as I noted above, I believe eating a maximal amount of food volume to digestive tolerance will yield the best satiety. For ease of digestion, it makes sense to do this in as many meals as is feasible.

It is all the hunger signals I am really trying to avoid here attacked from many angles, not just the 'starvation' signal that a person with a normal appetite would feel.

I definitely agree that there should be no added benefit through increasing MPS with such frequent feedings. Regarding satiety though, since protein provides more satiety than cho or fat (based on research), it makes sense to me to consume that at each meal for the most part.

I am definitely trying to avoid the spikes in insulin almost universally, no matter the cause. Post-prandial hypoglycemia, triggered by excess protein (moreso than cho) causes what I believe to be a mild genetic heart arrhythmia. After several years I believe I have nailed down the cause. I no longer have this problem on my current plan.

im hungry after every meal no matter what calories...this means my insulin is sparky? doesnt that hinder fat losS?

Insulin spikes can be very beneficial (e.g. post workout). Each spike limits fat oxidation (since insulin levels are so damn high and insulin is a storage hormone and blunts lipolysis when super high). But after the spike there is a crash or leveling off where fat oxidation is greatly increased. So it can balance in that sense. In the end, staying hypocaloric seems to be the biggest factor in reducing bf.

Originally Posted by joey2005

im hungry after every meal no matter what calories...this means my insulin is sparky? doesnt that hinder fat losS?

you are hungry after every meal because you are starving yourself and exercising too much...

Originally Posted by trHawT

If you're interested in gaining a ton of excess bodyfat, go ahead and eat every hour.
Cool with me.

Lol bro, how the hell'd you come up with that conclusion, bro?

Originally Posted by Cardinal

One would think that logically increasing calories from an insufficient level per meal to a sufficient level per meal would solve the issue of hunger after only an hour allowing for longer time between feedings. But for me, insulin is a larger factor here than caloric content. The extra calories don't make up for the fluctuation induced hunger. Even 600-700 calorie meals cause a greater binging tendency than 300-400 for me. Incidentally meals using say 800-1200 calories cause an even worse reaction. I am hungry both while insulin is rising to its full extent, then even more so when it bottoms out. Unfortunately fat has a very poor acute effect on hunger for me so I can't fix the problem by subbing fat for protein/cho.

Regarding the hunger signals, I don't believe the stomach sends signals in an on/off switch manner but rather as a continuum starting post-prandially and amplifying until next meal. The fuller the GI tract is, the better the appetite suppression (solely from a food volume perspective). Once even a small amount of that food makes it out of the stomach/GI, there is room for more and a person with a strong appetite would then want to ingest more. Translation: appetite flares up. Usually happens within the hour for me.

Also, as I noted above, I believe eating a maximal amount of food volume to digestive tolerance will yield the best satiety. For ease of digestion, it makes sense to do this in as many meals as is feasible.

It is all the hunger signals I am really trying to avoid here attacked from many angles, not just the 'starvation' signal that a person with a normal appetite would feel.

I definitely agree that there should be no added benefit through increasing MPS with such frequent feedings. Regarding satiety though, since protein provides more satiety than cho or fat (based on research), it makes sense to me to consume that at each meal for the most part.

I am definitely trying to avoid the spikes in insulin almost universally, no matter the cause. Post-prandial hypoglycemia, triggered by excess protein (moreso than cho) causes what I believe to be a mild genetic heart arrhythmia. After several years I believe I have nailed down the cause. I no longer have this problem on my current plan.

well I hope you don't plan on using this protocol for long. you digestive system will surely get wacked out from all of this constant eating as you are placing undue stress on digestive organs.

what ive had today

meal 1 :
6 egg whites
2 cups brown rice
strawberries

meal 2:
2 cups brown rice
2 oz tuna/4 oz chicken breast
pear

meal 3:
4 oz tuna
spinach/carrots
vinegar

meal 4 :
5 oz chicken
broccoli / carrots / colliflower

meal 5 :
2 cups brown rice
2 scoops whey protein


Now im 200lbs and im dying to get cut. This is a low carb day .. this comes out 2800 calories..so im know im already overboarding..but im still hungry inbetween meals here. And as far as exercise..i did HIIT cardio after breakfast for 15 minutes. Should I eat more? all in all the calorie deduction is what kills the fat

At one point my binging problem was quite severe. I ate so many fibrous veggies while dieting, I ended up with IBS (which I still have). Calories averaged 2000-2500/day over several months time with refeeds as needed. I knew quite well how to stay hypocaloric but was consuming too much food volume/meal (and the wrong type of foods).

Under my current plan digestion has improved greatly. I have enough control to stay within digestive limits each meal. I can even incorporate some of the most offensive foods back in my diet now without many negative repurcussions. I plan on using these strategies for the forseeable future. Compared to where I was this is a major improvement.

If I find I am consuming too much volume, I will scale back that volume. But still I firmly hold to the idea that it is better to separate food volume ingested into as many small meals as possible all other things equal. That should improve rather than hurt digestion. I would venture to say that most people that have digestive issue would not benefit by increasing the size of meals. That makes little sense to me. It would be better in that case to reduce net food volume than to alter frequency of feedings.

A little common sense helps. I believe the digestive system has very distinct ways of communicating problems. They are hard to miss!

Edit:

Joey,
I'll comment when I get back, but there are several things you can do right off the bat to increase satiety given what you wrote down. I am sure others can comment as well.

Originally Posted by joey2005

what ive had today

meal 1 :
6 egg whites
2 cups brown rice
strawberries

meal 2:
2 cups brown rice
2 oz tuna/4 oz chicken breast
pear

meal 3:
4 oz tuna
spinach/carrots
vinegar

meal 4 :
5 oz chicken
broccoli / carrots / colliflower

meal 5 :
2 cups brown rice
2 scoops whey protein


Now im 200lbs and im dying to get cut. This is a low carb day .. this comes out 2800 calories..so im know im already overboarding..but im still hungry inbetween meals here. And as far as exercise..i did HIIT cardio after breakfast for 15 minutes. Should I eat more? all in all the calorie deduction is what kills the fat

I assume you are cho cycling and cutting. Calories look a little high for low-carb day. I certainly wouldn't increase those. On cho cycling, If a caloric increase is needed, it should go on high carb day imo, like a mini refeed. Low cho day should put you in a moderate deficit if I recall correctly.

Some suggestions to increase satiety. Try old fashion oatmeal in place of the brown rice. Better yet, get some extra-thick oatmeal and cook it slowly with as much water as it will absorb (way more than package directions). This will increase fiber, water and overall food volume. Rice is not filling on a cut in comparison.

Between meals keep sf gum, sf jello and diet soda handy. Also I have found nicotine gum to work wonderfully as a dessert. Try adding some supplemental fiber in slow increments into your diet as you can tolerate it in addition to the veggies. Pyllium, xantham, oat fiber whatever.

Re: water intake. First thing in the morning, consume 1-2 liters fluid (I do fiber shakes when dieting). Make sure to drink at least 5L/day. This is very important. Give some of those ideas a shot and see if they improve on your current plan.

Originally Posted by bulletproof1

i have never heard of anyone eating 12 meals a day but hey if it works for you knock yourself out.

12 meals a day is excessive! True. At 34" - 37" waist, you're definitely 15%+ bodyfat.

Originally Posted by The_Chicken_Daddy

Lol bro, how the hell'd you come up with that conclusion, bro?

lol. Just for the hell of it. It just sounded like an excuse to eat a lot. I don't know about you, but it would take a lot of calorie expenditure to burn off 12 meals a day. There's no way I could eat 12 meals a day. Not even at 12 croutons a day. lol

Well, you can eat 2000kcals a day split over 12 meals and that's not excessive.

Depends whether it works for him.

Apparently Jay Cutler eats every 90 minutes - about ten meals a day - in order to get all his calories down. Now, granted he uses drugs, changing the picture quite considerably, but the general application is the same.

Originally Posted by trHawT

12 meals a day is excessive! True. At 34" - 37" waist, you're definitely 15%+ bodyfat.

Yep, I imagine I am in the 15-20% range now. I have never hit 10%. I look at my genetics and setpoint as being very much average. I figure I'll just bulk and cut around my setpoint mainly and not worry too much about fat unless I get well over 20%. I spent a year and a half learning how to cut effectively so I am not concerned about being able to lose it.

I just want to bulk as much as possible to maximize time spent building muscle, which I now see as the more difficult long-term task (so easy to manipulate bodyfat stores in comparison). Sans androgens 1-2 lbs muscle a month I would be quite pleased with.

Originally Posted by Cardinal

13) Focus on eating around the clock. Wake up in middle of night, grab protein shake.
-Cardinal

That is horrible advise.

Originally Posted by Cardinal

Yep, I imagine I am in the 15-20% range now. I have never hit 10%. I look at my genetics and setpoint as being very much average. I figure I'll just bulk and cut around my setpoint mainly and not worry too much about fat unless I get well over 20%. I spent a year and a half learning how to cut effectively so I am not concerned about being able to lose it.

If it was easy to lose bodyfat everyone would be thin. It takes will power and dedication to lose it and then keep it off. Typically the people without the dedication are the ones that say they are not concerned with it or that "they could if they wanted to".