Food or Whey Protein Powder?

rpoclt · 08-19-2005, 07:47 PM

If it's possible to get enough protein from real food, is protein powder really necessary? Is their any benefit from consuming protein from the powder vs real food?

Yesterday, I was able to get in 210 grams of protein from food - so I didn't drink any shakes. If I can stay away from those shakes as much as possible, I will.

Vieope · 08-19-2005, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpoclt

If it's possible to get enough protein from real food, is protein powder really necessary? Is their any benefit from consuming protein from the powder vs real food?

Yeah. No. No.

Emma-Leigh · 08-19-2005, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpoclt

If it's possible to get enough protein from real food, is protein powder really necessary?

Yes it is possible and no, protein powder is not really necessary.

Quote:

Is their any benefit from consuming protein from the powder vs real food?

Whey powder does offer the benefits of being:
1. very portible and convenient
2. Simple to prepare
3. Rapidly digested and absorbed
4. High in the BCAA to aid in recovery and anabolism
5. Insulinogenic - further inhancing it's ability to aid recovery
6. It is also shown to stimulate the immune system, to have certain anti-cancer properties and to stimulate growth hormone production too.

Quote:

Yesterday, I was able to get in 210 grams of protein from food - so I didn't drink any shakes. If I can stay away from those shakes as much as possible, I will.

Hey, if you can manage without it and if you are getting the results you desire, then you certainly do not need to worry and just keep doing what you are doing!

The Monkey Man · 08-19-2005, 09:45 PM

Food...

And then Whey -

Tough Old Man · 08-19-2005, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpoclt

If it's possible to get enough protein from real food,

You don't really think that they have had whey protein around for 100's of years do you. Hope that answeres your questioned

The Monkey Man · 08-19-2005, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tough Old Man

You don't really think that they have had whey protein around for 100's of years do you. Hope that answeres your questioned

Toughy... The sauce must be kicking in...
You are jumping right down everybody's throat -

Tough Old Man · 08-19-2005, 09:58 PM

1) Really I wasn't trying to bash him if that's the way it looked. Only person was MuscleM4n.
2) Strongest thing I have had today is water. My spelling should tell that! Now have a great day Monkey

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey Man

Toughy... The sauce must be kicking in...
You are jumping right down everybody's throat -

smithieaus · 08-20-2005, 02:13 AM

I buy my whey in bulk and it saves me money in the long run.
Good protien sources like meat and dairy are getting quite expensive and it all ads up, especially if you are consuming 210g a day.

LAM · 08-20-2005, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpoclt

If it's possible to get enough protein from real food, is protein powder really necessary? Is their any benefit from consuming protein from the powder vs real food?

Yesterday, I was able to get in 210 grams of protein from food - so I didn't drink any shakes. If I can stay away from those shakes as much as possible, I will.

it is essential to use whey protein(s) for post workout. that is the one meal where protein supplements are definetly superior than whole food protein sources

Tha Don · 08-20-2005, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LAM

it is essential to use whey protein(s) for post workout. that is the one meal where protein supplements are definetly superior than whole food protein sources

ditto

i'd also like to add that trying to eat 300-400g a day of lean proteins without any supplementation is very difficult, not only is it costly but also very time consuming, i probably get about 200g of lean protein from food sources, the rest comes from protein drinks

Emma-Leigh · 08-20-2005, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by young d

ditto

i'd also like to add that trying to eat 300-400g a day of lean proteins without any supplementation is very difficult, not only is it costly but also very time consuming, i probably get about 200g of lean protein from food sources, the rest comes from protein drinks

But you have to realise that for the non-juicing/non-professional person, 300-400g of protein a day is really not necessary... Unless you are about 230-260 pounds of PURE muscle, then anything near that quantity of protein is really just a waste - you are simply converting it to glucose via gluconeogenesis.

And I have to disagree to a certain extent... Sure, whey protein PWO is great and it is your best option (esp if you are working out with little food in your stomach) but it is not absolutely essential...

Quote:

Ingestion of Casein and Whey Proteins Result in Muscle Anabolism after Resistance Exercise
[Basic Sciences: Original Investigations]
TIPTON, KEVIN D.; ELLIOTT, TABATHA A.; CREE, MELANIE G.; WOLF, STEVEN E.; SANFORD, ARTHUR P.; WOLFE, ROBERT R.

Metabolism Unit, Shriners Hospitals for Children and Department of Surgery, The University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, TX
Address for correspondence: Dr. Kevin Tipton, Metabolism, 815 Market St., Galveston, TX 77550; E-mail: ktipton@utmb.edu.
Submitted for publication March 2004.
Accepted for publication July 2004.
ABSTRACT
Purpose: Determination of the anabolic response to exercise and nutrition is important for individuals who may benefit from increased muscle mass. Intake of free amino acids after resistance exercise stimulates net muscle protein synthesis. The response of muscle protein balance to intact protein ingestion after exercise has not been studied. This study was designed to examine the acute response of muscle protein balance to ingestion of two different intact proteins after resistance exercise.

Methods: Healthy volunteers were randomly assigned to one of three groups. Each group consumed one of three drinks: placebo (PL; N = 7), 20 g of casein (CS; N = 7), or whey proteins (WH; N = 9). Volunteers consumed the drink 1 h after the conclusion of a leg extension exercise bout. Leucine and phenylalanine concentrations were measured in femoral arteriovenous samples to determine balance across the leg.

Results: Arterial amino acid concentrations were elevated by protein ingestion, but the pattern of appearance was different for CS and WH. Net amino acid balance switched from negative to positive after ingestion of both proteins. Peak leucine net balance over time was greater for WH (347 ± 50 nmol·min-1·100 mL-1 leg) than CS (133 ± 45 nmol·min-1·100 mL-1 leg), but peak phenylalanine balance was similar for CS and WH. Ingestion of both CS and WH stimulated a significantly larger net phenylalanine uptake after resistance exercise, compared with the PL (PL -5 ± 15 mg, CS 84 ± 10 mg, WH 62 ± 18 mg). Amino acid uptake relative to amount ingested was similar for both CS and WH (~10–15%).

Conclusions: Acute ingestion of both WH and CS after exercise resulted in similar increases in muscle protein net balance, resulting in net muscle protein synthesis despite different patterns of blood amino acid responses.

Also - a mix of different protein sources may actually better - it will give you the different properties of the protein fractions...

For example, casein protein is highly anti-catabolic and could especially be important in those that are trying to retain lean mass when losing weight.

Quote:

Effect of a hypocaloric diet, increased protein intake and resistance training on lean mass gains and fat mass loss in overweight police officers.
Demling RH. DeSanti L.

Annals of Nutrition & Metabolism. 44(1):21-9, 2000.

We compare the effects of a moderate hypocaloric, high-protein diet and resistance training, using two different protein supplements, versus hypocaloric diet alone on body compositional changes in overweight police officers. A randomized, prospective 12-week study was performed comparing the changes in body composition produced by three different treatment modalities in three study groups. One group (n = 10) was placed on a nonlipogenic, hypocaloric diet alone (80% of predicted needs). A second group (n = 14) was placed on the hypocaloric diet plus resistance exercise plus a high-protein intake (1.5 g/kg/day) using a casein protein hydrolysate. In the third group (n = 14) treatment was identical to the second, except for the use of a whey protein hydrolysate. We found that weight loss was approximately 2.5 kg in all three groups. Mean percent body fat with diet alone decreased from a baseline of 27 +/- 1.8 to 25 +/- 1.3% at 12 weeks. With diet, exercise and casein the decrease was from 26 +/- 1.7 to 18 +/- 1.1% and with diet, exercise and whey protein the decrease was from 27 +/- 1.6 to 23 +/- 1.3%. The mean fat loss was 2. 5 +/- 0.6, 7.0 +/- 2.1 and 4.2 +/- 0.9 kg in the three groups, respectively. Lean mass gains in the three groups did not change for diet alone, versus gains of 4 +/- 1.4 and 2 +/- 0.7 kg in the casein and whey groups, respectively. Mean increase in strength for chest, shoulder and legs was 59 +/- 9% for casein and 29 +/- 9% for whey, a significant group difference. This significant difference in body composition and strength is likely due to improved nitrogen retention and overall anticatabolic effects caused by the peptide components of the casein hydrolysate.

Which is why I will always come back to my suggestion of milk, combined with a WPI to increase the ratio of whey:casein, being a very good PWO mix. (And to those who say 'but it will slow digestion' - the whey protein and the casein protein are not intimately connected. They will seperate and while the casein will clot, the whey and the rest of the liquid components in the milk will continue to be digested and absorbed without a significant alteration in time).

However, if someone did not want to supplement then, as long the PRE-WORKOUT meal is non-stupid, and had sufficient carbs and protein to last through their workout, then having plain milk would be fine (+/- some other foods such as a banana or some egg whites if you wanted to increase the protein content).

TheUnlikelyHERO · 08-20-2005, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emma-Leigh

But you have to realise that for the non-juicing/non-professional person, 300-400g of protein a day is really not necessary... Unless you are about 230-260 pounds of PURE muscle, then anything near that quantity of protein is really just a waste - you are simply converting it to glucose via gluconeogenesis.

There's plenty of 200-230 pound natural bodybuilders who consume way over 400-500g of protein a day, and they've gotten there by consuming over 2g/lb of bw since they were 150 pounds. So I wouldn't call it a waste, it's working ..

And back to the topic, if you can reach your protein totals with real food then do so, but if you can't filling in the gaps with whey is just fine.

Akkers · 08-21-2005, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheUnlikelyHERO

There's plenty of 200-230 pound natural bodybuilders who consume way over 400-500g of protein a day, and they've gotten there by consuming over 2g/lb of bw since they were 150 pounds. So I wouldn't call it a waste, it's working ..

No it's not. 500g protein + for a natural 200lb bodybuilder is the most pointless thing I've ever heard.

Tha Don · 08-21-2005, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akkers

No it's not. 500g protein + for a natural 200lb bodybuilder is the most pointless thing I've ever heard.

so Einstien... tell us how you build lean muscle without a high protein diet?

Emma-Leigh · 08-21-2005, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by young d

so Einstien... tell us how you build lean muscle without a high protein diet?

Simple:
1. Lift heavy stuff using a training program that incorporates the basic principles of stimulating hypertrophy (time under tension and progressive overload in order to stimulate over-compensation... with the right balance between frequency and adequate rest)
2. Eat adequate amounts of calories for your goals.
3. Get adequate essential fatty acids for health.
4. Consume about 1-1.5g of protein per pound body weight (or 1.25-1.5g per pound LEAN mass) [and yes, those totals includes the incomplete protein you will get from grains and seeds].

Weight training, believe it or not, actually reduces a bodies requirement for protein - it makes you more efficient at processing and retaining nitrogen. And, just on that note, high protein diet also increases the rate at which you WASTE protein and once you start taking in such high quantities your is simply going to be converting most of it to glucose (gluconeogenesis)...

Don't allow yourself to be fooled. A high protein diet is not what causes you to grow - that is a huge miss conception that has been perpetuated by the supplement companies. It is the combination of training, overall calorie intake (with sufficient energy for growth) and lastly, adequate protein (which in reality is not a huge amount) that all have to be factored in.

buildingup · 08-21-2005, 03:13 PM

i agree with no one here.
you need to -
stay up all night
be lazy with weights because lifting in itself will cause your muscles to grow in the gym
eat less protein because it makes you fart like crazy
and bath every hour to help muscle grow in size.

oh and to give you an edge over your competitors you must refrain from having sex or any sort of intimate feelings because recent studies at bullshit university show that this decreases you will to lift weights and grow muscle.

TheUnlikelyHERO · 08-21-2005, 08:31 PM

You all can believe what you want to - I'll listen to the guys that are 200+ pounds of lean mass who swear by high protein diets.

Akkers · 08-22-2005, 12:35 AM

Listen to me then. The human body does not need 2g/lb of bodyweight to build muscle. I've always eaten 1-1.25g of protein/lb of bodyweight and 3-3.5g carbs (carbs are one of the most anabolic things going around...) and it got me up to 250lbs no worries. So, go ahead, eat your ludicrous amounts of protein. Don't listen to me. What do I know?

Emma-Leigh · 08-22-2005, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheUnlikelyHERO

You all can believe what you want to - I'll listen to the guys that are 200+ pounds of lean mass who swear by high protein diets.

Rightio... And you don't think their million dollar deals with supplement companies have anything to do with that?

They gain because the protein they are eating = calories and that is what counts... Yes, protein IS important, but when it comes to hypertrophy most athletic type people get enough protein (that is, they are getting something close to about 1g/pound) for good muscle growth (that is, as long as they are eating a non-stupid diet - which, as athetes, is not usually a problem).

Interestingly enough - when it comes to dieting, or at times when you are restricting your carbs, your requirements for protein does go up above this - as you want to RETAIN lean mass in the face of calorie deficiency... So something closer to the 1.5g/pound is much better.

But if you do not believe me then go and read this: here... Or this.

Or have a look at pubmed, highwire journals or any number of other journal sites and do some scientific research - you will find that most of the research suggests that intakes of about 1.6-1.8g per kg body weight (which, by the way, is 0.8g/pound weight) is enough for a person interested in hypertrophy.

Jeezzz... I can even do some research for you:

Quote:

Nutrition, Volume 20, Issues 7-8 , July-August 2004, Pages 689-695

Protein requirements and supplementation in strength sports

Stuart M. Phillips PhD,

Daily requirements for protein are set by the amount of amino acids that is irreversibly lost in a given day. Different agencies have set requirement levels for daily protein intakes for the general population; however, the question of whether strength-trained athletes require more protein than the general population is one that is difficult to answer. At a cellular level, an increased requirement for protein in strength-trained athletes might arise due to the extra protein required to support muscle protein accretion through elevated protein synthesis. Alternatively, an increased requirement for protein may come about in this group of athletes due to increased catabolic loss of amino acids associated with strength-training activities. A review of studies that have examined the protein requirements of strength-trained athletes, using nitrogen balance methodology, has shown a modest increase in requirements in this group. At the same time, several studies have shown that strength training, consistent with the anabolic stimulus for protein synthesis it provides, actually increases the efficiency of use of protein, which reduces dietary protein requirements. Various studies have shown that strength-trained athletes habitually consume protein intakes higher than required. A positive energy balance is required for anabolism, so a requirement for "extra" protein over and above normal values also appears not to be a critical issue for competitive athletes because most would have to be in positive energy balance to compete effectively. At present there is no evidence to suggest that supplements are required for optimal muscle growth or strength gain. Strength-trained athletes should consume protein consistent with general population guidelines, or 12% to 15% of energy from protein.

Quote:

American Journal of Clinical Nutrition
Volume 77, Issue 1, 1 January 2003, Pages 109-127

Meta-analysis of nitrogen balance studies for estimating protein requirements in healthy adults

Rand, W.M, Pellett, P.L, Young, V.R

Background: The most recent international dietary protein recommendations for healthy adults are those developed and proposed by the 1985 FAO/WHO/UNU Joint Expert Consultation.

Objective: The objective was to analyze available nitrogen balance data to establish new recommendations for the protein required by healthy adults.

Design: Data were gathered from published nitrogen balance studies that had as their primary objective either the estimation of basal or maintenance requirements or the testing of the adequacy of specific nitrogen intakes in healthy adults. These data were synthesized to characterize the distribution of individual protein requirements; the effects of climate of the study site, adult age, sex, and dietary protein source on individual requirements; and the midpoint of and the variability between the protein requirements of healthy persons.

Results: Data for 235 individual subjects, each studied at ≥ 3 test protein intakes, were gathered from 19 studies. The median estimated average requirement (EAR) of nitrogen from these data was 105 mg N · kg-1 · d-1. Individual requirements were found to fit a log-normal distribution. The median EAR was estimated as the median of this distribution, 105 mg N · kg-1 · d-, whereas the 97.5th percentile (the recommended dietary allowance; RDA) was estimated from the distribution of the log of the requirement (after correction of the total observed variability to remove within-individual variability) as 132 mg N · kg-1 · d-1. No significant differences between the climate of the study site, adult age class, sex, or source of dietary protein were observed, although there was an indication that women might have a lower requirement than do men.

Conclusion: This meta-analysis provides new recommendations for dietary reference values, ie, an EAR (median) and RDA (97.5th percentile) for healthy adults of 105 and 132 mg N · kg-1 · d-1 (0.65 and 0.83 g good-quality protein · kg-1 · d-1), respectively.

Here is an endurance training article (and endurance training is, oddly enough, more demanding in terms of protein requirements due to the higher rate of amino acid oxidation...):

Quote:

Nutrition
Volume 20, Issue 7-8, July 2004, Pages 662-668

Protein requirements for endurance athletes

Tarnopolsky, M.

Abstract
Acute endurance exercise results in the oxidation of several amino acids. The total amount of amino acid oxidation during endurance exercise amounts to only 1-6% of the total energy cost of exercise. The branched chain amino acid, leucine, has been most often studied in relation to endurance exercise. Leucine is oxidized by the enzyme, branched-chain oxo-acid dehydrogenase (BCOAD). BCOAD is relatively inactive at rest (∼4-7%) and is activated at the onset of exercise by dephosphorylation (to about 25%). After a period of endurance exercise training, the activation of BCOAD and amino acid oxidation are attenuated, however the total amount of BCOAD enzyme is up-regulated. A low energy and/or carbohydrate intake will increase amino acid oxidation and total protein requirements. With adequate energy and carbohydrate intake, low to moderate intensity endurance activity has little impact on dietary protein requirements and 1.0 gPRO/kg/d is sufficient. The only situation where dietary protein requirements exceed those for relatively sedentary individuals is in top sport athletes where the maximal requirement is 1.6 gPRO/kg/d. Although most endurance athletes get enough protein to support any increased requirements, those with low energy or carbohydrate intakes may require nutritional advice to optimize dietary protein intake. © Elsevier Inc. 2004.

Basically,

Akkers · 08-22-2005, 05:51 AM

Nicely done Emma

TheUnlikelyHERO · 08-22-2005, 09:22 AM

Has there been any scientific studies done with people eating over 2g/lb of bw to show that it is pointless (or more effective)? From what I've seen there hasn't been any studies at all.

Also, can everyone that hasn't "succumbed" to the High Protein Myth post pictures so I can see how an alternative diet produces huge 220+ pound monsters?

Akkers · 08-23-2005, 05:27 AM

There has been many studies, some provided in kind by Emma, that prove that excessive protein intake (excessive is regarded as 1.6g/lb of bodyweight and above) is not neccesary.

A 'high protein diet' is actually anything that contains more than .7g protein per pound of bodyweight. A bodybuilder obvsioulsy needs more than this, the baseline being 1g/lb. Anything more than 1.6g/lb is considered excessive even by bodybuilders. Go anymore than this any your bodys ability to retain and synthesize this protein rapidly decreases. Drop the 'huge protein intake builds huge muscles' theory because its just plain bullshit, as Emma explains in post #15. There are more effective, and indeed cheaper ways to build muscle, and it continues to baffle me the amount of people that get sucked into this myth (damn money hungry supplement companies).

Just stick with 1-1.25g protein per pound of bodyweight, 3g carbs per pound of bodyweight and combine this with a workout full of heavy, moderate rep compound movements and you'll grow so much better...

buildingup · 08-23-2005, 07:12 AM

i stick with 1gram per pound of bw cos im poor and its working well!

08-19-2005, 09:45 PM	#4
The Monkey Man Magical Apelikemenace Elite Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: New Delhi, India Posts: 14,393 Photos: 57	Food... And then Whey - Have Problems?... Chances are its due to overpopulation Save The Oceans, Save the Planet, Save Your Family, Save Yourself!

08-21-2005, 08:31 PM	#17
TheUnlikelyHERO .. Ascending .. Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 25	You all can believe what you want to - I'll listen to the guys that are 200+ pounds of lean mass who swear by high protein diets. The more your sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle.

08-22-2005, 09:22 AM	#21
TheUnlikelyHERO .. Ascending .. Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 25	Has there been any scientific studies done with people eating over 2g/lb of bw to show that it is pointless (or more effective)? From what I've seen there hasn't been any studies at all. Also, can everyone that hasn't "succumbed" to the High Protein Myth post pictures so I can see how an alternative diet produces huge 220+ pound monsters? The more your sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle.

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08-19-2005, 07:47 PM	#1
rpoclt Registered User Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 42	Food or Whey Protein Powder? If it's possible to get enough protein from real food, is protein powder really necessary? Is their any benefit from consuming protein from the powder vs real food? Yesterday, I was able to get in 210 grams of protein from food - so I didn't drink any shakes. If I can stay away from those shakes as much as possible, I will.

08-20-2005, 02:13 AM	#8
smithieaus Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 20	I buy my whey in bulk and it saves me money in the long run. Good protien sources like meat and dairy are getting quite expensive and it all ads up, especially if you are consuming 210g a day.

08-21-2005, 03:13 PM	#16
buildingup Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,101	i agree with no one here. you need to - stay up all night be lazy with weights because lifting in itself will cause your muscles to grow in the gym eat less protein because it makes you fart like crazy and bath every hour to help muscle grow in size. oh and to give you an edge over your competitors you must refrain from having sex or any sort of intimate feelings because recent studies at bullshit university show that this decreases you will to lift weights and grow muscle.

08-22-2005, 12:35 AM	#18
Akkers The Gazelle or The Lion? Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 266	Listen to me then. The human body does not need 2g/lb of bodyweight to build muscle. I've always eaten 1-1.25g of protein/lb of bodyweight and 3-3.5g carbs (carbs are one of the most anabolic things going around...) and it got me up to 250lbs no worries. So, go ahead, eat your ludicrous amounts of protein. Don't listen to me. What do I know?

08-22-2005, 05:51 AM	#20
Akkers The Gazelle or The Lion? Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 266	Nicely done Emma

08-23-2005, 05:27 AM	#22
Akkers The Gazelle or The Lion? Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 266	There has been many studies, some provided in kind by Emma, that prove that excessive protein intake (excessive is regarded as 1.6g/lb of bodyweight and above) is not neccesary. A 'high protein diet' is actually anything that contains more than .7g protein per pound of bodyweight. A bodybuilder obvsioulsy needs more than this, the baseline being 1g/lb. Anything more than 1.6g/lb is considered excessive even by bodybuilders. Go anymore than this any your bodys ability to retain and synthesize this protein rapidly decreases. Drop the 'huge protein intake builds huge muscles' theory because its just plain bullshit, as Emma explains in post #15. There are more effective, and indeed cheaper ways to build muscle, and it continues to baffle me the amount of people that get sucked into this myth (damn money hungry supplement companies). Just stick with 1-1.25g protein per pound of bodyweight, 3g carbs per pound of bodyweight and combine this with a workout full of heavy, moderate rep compound movements and you'll grow so much better...

08-23-2005, 07:12 AM	#23
buildingup Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,101	i stick with 1gram per pound of bw cos im poor and its working well!