Cardio as if Cutting + Calories as if Bulking = Ripped??

TheUnlikelyHERO · 08-20-2005, 02:02 PM

I've been thinking about this topic for days now and I really appreciate your input on this, so bare with me with this rather long post please ..

After this past mesocycle for me of cutting, I learned that for me - it's very hard to get down to the single digit bodyfat %'s without cardio. I also learned that I was consuming too little calories that slowed my metabolism down way too much to be oxidizing any fat to make any significant changes in body composition, even though the kcal I consumed was around 2,000 calories, and my mantenance is 2,500. Should've worked right? Nope ..

So I got to thinking, is calories in vs. calories out really the only way to lose fat? Because (this is going to be hard for me to put in words), what if someone, like myself, who's 5'8 and 170 pounds, around 11% BF, who's maintenance level is around 2,500 calories, consumed over 3,500 or ever 4,000 calories a day? You would say, he would gain weight - muscle and fat (since it's too large over maintenance; 500 would be the best increase). Now, what if the same person did cardio everyday (split up between lifting), preferably HIIT & medium intensity cardio? Would I be gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time? Or would the cardio be a waste?

See here's my theory, nutrient partitioning is a MUCH more important subject to me than just calories in vs. calories out - it's where the calories go. Eating as much as 4,000 calories a day, while doing cardio and lifting pretty much everyday (with a rest day), you agree my metabolism would go from being a Honda Civic to a Supercharged 2003 Ford Mustang Cobra (drools), agreed? And your resting metabolic rate is the breaking point to how much fat you oxidize in a day. While you're doing cardio and lifting, you're buring lots of those calories - but you're also telling your body to "lose the fat and partition calories to muscle cells", even in a surplus, right? While doing HIIT cardio (every other day with regular cardio in between), and weightlifting, insulin sensitivity is also very high = greater muscle partitioning. And even though you're in a calorie surplus, doing lots of cardio (as if cutting) you're making your body much more effecient at oxidizing fat, even though the surplus is not enough to lose WEIGHT (but not fat). You're still eating enough to stimulate muscle growth, and with the cardio you're increasing your metabolic rate so much that it's burning a higher fat:glucose ratio daily which should mean fat loss, and leave less glucose burned for more muscle partitioning.

I came up with this theory basically while looking at athletes that lift and do cardio and then eat like the world depended on it. They're very lean, ripped, yet still putting on muscle mass. How is that possible? I used to sit in my college cafeteria and watch them consuming 3 plates full of food every meal and then coming back each day more ripped - while I'm there eating a small meal so I won't break 2,000 calories which is 'under my maintenance', and nothing really happened. I also started looking into this because I see many of the DC trainee's consuming 4,500-5,000 calories a day while staying between 8-10% BF.

Does this theory make any sense? Obviously this theory wouldn't work without a sound corresponding diet, which I want you to assume is mostly protein, moderate carbs and moderate fats, and also the person is consuming all the necessary supplements and vitamins such as a multi, calcium, vitamin c, creatine, green tea, etc.

I would really appreciate your comments on this.

- Chris.

NEW_IN_THE_GAME · 08-20-2005, 02:05 PM

why not bulk and cut. bulk fro 12-16 weeks and then cut for contest.

TheUnlikelyHERO · 08-20-2005, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEW_IN_THE_GAME

why not bulk and cut. bulk fro 12-16 weeks and then cut for contest.

What's the point of only doing one at a time if you CAN (possibly) do both at the same time? This is what I'm asking.

buildingup · 08-20-2005, 02:30 PM

i am constantly gaining muscle while losing fat but i dunno how im doing it, i have recently not bothered counting calories cos ive tried it before and it didnt work! and bulk and cut is unneccessary for those who are not in competitions cos only a small portion of the year your looking lean

dvp · 08-21-2005, 01:10 AM

unlikelyhero, thats such a good point, i work at a camp at UCLA and ate in the same cafeteria as the football players and its unreal how huge some of these guys are(by huge i mean fuckin cut) and how much they eat. the question i would have though is that there would have to be some equilibrium w/ the cardio/cals to make it actually work does anyone have any thoughts?

TheUnlikelyHERO · 08-21-2005, 09:38 AM

Yeah I've asked this question on a few other forums as well because I'm so curious about it - and mostly eveyrone is saying the only problem would be the surplus. Over time the surplus would cause insulin sensitivity (muscle partitioning) to go down and it will cause bloodflow to fat tissue go down so that would be bad too.

I guess either introducing days of below maintenance and cardio would help to contain BF or to just only 'bulk' with a 500 calorie surplus so fat storage isn't really possible due to the high demand to send the 500 calorie surplus to muscle repair rather than fat storage.

Giovanni · 08-21-2005, 11:37 AM

Keep those extra 200-500 cals limited to lean protein sorces, such as chicken breast, turkey, tuna, and egg whites, many people who gain fat easily convert carbs into fat more readily than hardgainers do. As, you bump calorie consumption, have pics to help you know if your adding quality weight or more bf. Its a strategy many bodybuilders use when they are shredding bf for contests,, it should help you increase muscle mass while controling or cutting bf.

DeadBolt · 08-21-2005, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buildingup

i am constantly gaining muscle while losing fat but i dunno how im doing it, i have recently not bothered counting calories cos ive tried it before and it didnt work! and bulk and cut is unneccessary for those who are not in competitions cos only a small portion of the year your looking lean

So only those who compete can bulk and cut? Why? Give me some reasoning behind that! Its not only for competeing bro...be for real!

As for your gains.....I'm sure your new to training so its easy for you to add lbm and lose body fat. Someone very experienced will not have the same fortune as a noob.

08-20-2005, 02:02 PM	#1
TheUnlikelyHERO .. Ascending .. Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 25	Cardio as if Cutting + Calories as if Bulking = Ripped?? BODYBUILDING SUPPLEMENTS High Quality Supplements For Bodybuilders and Athletes. www.ironmaglabs.com I've been thinking about this topic for days now and I really appreciate your input on this, so bare with me with this rather long post please .. After this past mesocycle for me of cutting, I learned that for me - it's very hard to get down to the single digit bodyfat %'s without cardio. I also learned that I was consuming too little calories that slowed my metabolism down way too much to be oxidizing any fat to make any significant changes in body composition, even though the kcal I consumed was around 2,000 calories, and my mantenance is 2,500. Should've worked right? Nope .. So I got to thinking, is calories in vs. calories out really the only way to lose fat? Because (this is going to be hard for me to put in words), what if someone, like myself, who's 5'8 and 170 pounds, around 11% BF, who's maintenance level is around 2,500 calories, consumed over 3,500 or ever 4,000 calories a day? You would say, he would gain weight - muscle and fat (since it's too large over maintenance; 500 would be the best increase). Now, what if the same person did cardio everyday (split up between lifting), preferably HIIT & medium intensity cardio? Would I be gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time? Or would the cardio be a waste? See here's my theory, nutrient partitioning is a MUCH more important subject to me than just calories in vs. calories out - it's where the calories go. Eating as much as 4,000 calories a day, while doing cardio and lifting pretty much everyday (with a rest day), you agree my metabolism would go from being a Honda Civic to a Supercharged 2003 Ford Mustang Cobra (drools), agreed? And your resting metabolic rate is the breaking point to how much fat you oxidize in a day. While you're doing cardio and lifting, you're buring lots of those calories - but you're also telling your body to "lose the fat and partition calories to muscle cells", even in a surplus, right? While doing HIIT cardio (every other day with regular cardio in between), and weightlifting, insulin sensitivity is also very high = greater muscle partitioning. And even though you're in a calorie surplus, doing lots of cardio (as if cutting) you're making your body much more effecient at oxidizing fat, even though the surplus is not enough to lose WEIGHT (but not fat). You're still eating enough to stimulate muscle growth, and with the cardio you're increasing your metabolic rate so much that it's burning a higher fat:glucose ratio daily which should mean fat loss, and leave less glucose burned for more muscle partitioning. I came up with this theory basically while looking at athletes that lift and do cardio and then eat like the world depended on it. They're very lean, ripped, yet still putting on muscle mass. How is that possible? I used to sit in my college cafeteria and watch them consuming 3 plates full of food every meal and then coming back each day more ripped - while I'm there eating a small meal so I won't break 2,000 calories which is 'under my maintenance', and nothing really happened. I also started looking into this because I see many of the DC trainee's consuming 4,500-5,000 calories a day while staying between 8-10% BF. Does this theory make any sense? Obviously this theory wouldn't work without a sound corresponding diet, which I want you to assume is mostly protein, moderate carbs and moderate fats, and also the person is consuming all the necessary supplements and vitamins such as a multi, calcium, vitamin c, creatine, green tea, etc. I would really appreciate your comments on this. - Chris.
	The more your sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle.

08-20-2005, 02:05 PM	#2
NEW_IN_THE_GAME Pic is at 263-14% jan 06 Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Sioux Falls South Dakota Posts: 1,138	why not bulk and cut. bulk fro 12-16 weeks and then cut for contest.
	These are my dreams, which I must make reality!

08-20-2005, 02:30 PM	#4
buildingup Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,101	i am constantly gaining muscle while losing fat but i dunno how im doing it, i have recently not bothered counting calories cos ive tried it before and it didnt work! and bulk and cut is unneccessary for those who are not in competitions cos only a small portion of the year your looking lean
buildingup Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,101

08-21-2005, 01:10 AM	#5
dvp Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 33	unlikelyhero, thats such a good point, i work at a camp at UCLA and ate in the same cafeteria as the football players and its unreal how huge some of these guys are(by huge i mean fuckin cut) and how much they eat. the question i would have though is that there would have to be some equilibrium w/ the cardio/cals to make it actually work does anyone have any thoughts?
dvp Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 33

08-21-2005, 09:38 AM	#6
TheUnlikelyHERO .. Ascending .. Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 25	Yeah I've asked this question on a few other forums as well because I'm so curious about it - and mostly eveyrone is saying the only problem would be the surplus. Over time the surplus would cause insulin sensitivity (muscle partitioning) to go down and it will cause bloodflow to fat tissue go down so that would be bad too. I guess either introducing days of below maintenance and cardio would help to contain BF or to just only 'bulk' with a 500 calorie surplus so fat storage isn't really possible due to the high demand to send the 500 calorie surplus to muscle repair rather than fat storage.
	The more your sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle.

08-21-2005, 11:37 AM	#7
Giovanni Giovanni Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: USA Posts: 63 Photos: 5	Keep those extra 200-500 cals limited to lean protein sorces, such as chicken breast, turkey, tuna, and egg whites, many people who gain fat easily convert carbs into fat more readily than hardgainers do. As, you bump calorie consumption, have pics to help you know if your adding quality weight or more bf. Its a strategy many bodybuilders use when they are shredding bf for contests,, it should help you increase muscle mass while controling or cutting bf.
	NPC Gateway Classics Bodybuilding Championships LC Men... 2nd Place (Lvl 1) NPC Gateway Classics Bodybuilding Championships LT Hvy WT Men...2nd Place (Lvl 4A) Next competition...end of november Goals... better delts.... 7 more lbs lean muscle to get into HVY WT I LOVE THIS SPORT!

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