Suggestions anyone !!!

GYM GURU · 04-04-2002, 02:35 PM

Whats the best way to shed water for a show & what is the best way to get shredded glutes.

**dg806** · 04-04-2002, 02:47 PM

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The original and best-selling herbal definition formula, Taraxatone, is now more powerful and effective than ever. New, Maximum Strength Taraxatone is designed to dramatically reduce excess water retention, while adding critical electrolytes. It supports extreme muscular definition and vascularity faster and more effectively than any other product available according to top-level competitive bodybuilders. Get ultra-ripped in just three days—guaranteed!http://www.cytodyne.com/

GYM GURU · 04-04-2002, 03:22 PM

Thanks dog . Any suggestions on the glutes question ?

realdeal · 04-04-2002, 06:52 PM

i think to get shredded glutes you have to work your "ass off" AND have the genetics.

Right now when i do cardio in the morning every step i take i squize my glutes and hamstrings. Hopefully i will see the results come show time.

GYM GURU · 04-05-2002, 10:33 AM

Has sqeezing your glutes on the treadmill help out . Have you noticed anything yet ! Thanks for the reply dog !

SteveDeBeave · 04-05-2002, 11:04 AM

Nothing better then lunges for your glutes. Do 4 sets a week and your sure to have a tight a$$.

Of course if it's covered in fat you need to look at your diet and cardio.

w8lifter · 04-05-2002, 11:23 AM

GG...I'll get you your drying out info as soon as I get sec....busy today!

**Prince** · 04-05-2002, 11:49 AM

Shredded Glutes = get to about 3% body fat

GYM GURU · 04-05-2002, 03:29 PM

Can a person do too much cardio ? I heard that if you take alot of glutamine while doibng alot of cardio then a person would loose the fat & not the muscle ? Is this correct ?

w8lifter · 04-05-2002, 04:15 PM

Glutamine will help preserve muscle, but you can still do too much cardio. Losing the fat is a function of the right diet and the proper amt of cardio done at the right time.

Robboe · 04-06-2002, 06:09 AM

Prince, you'll have shredded glutes and hams at around about 6%. There's a basic gauge i think i can remember (nothing definite but it's a nice measure)

10% - visible abs

8% - shredded lower back

6% - shredded glutes and hams (contest conditioing but most usually go a bit lower)

Robboe · 04-06-2002, 06:09 AM

Oh, i i think glutamine is waaaay overrated, but it may be helpful during the later stages of pre-contest dieting.

Dr. Pain · 04-06-2002, 07:56 AM

TCD, usually your info is "spot on", just want to help out a little here!

The glutes will be a function of genetics, and Prince is right, it will be in the 3-4% range! there are a lot of people that make it under 4% w/o the glutes!

There are several ways to preserve LBM, lifting wise, nutritionally and with supplementation! Basics:

Always lift for MASS, cut or bulk!

Use cardio as a tool only, one of many, as little and as late as you can get away with! Many times w/cardio you are losing pound for pound BF and LBM! (or even more LBM)

Don't drop calories too drastically, change macronutrients (P, C, and F) first, tweak programs in steps, every 3-5 weeks! I will be coming here more often in a few weeks and will help people with their programs ! (I hate the word diet)

Lastly, while an insulin spike post W/O is considered anti-catabolic, it is very difficult to gauge the effectiveness of "how much sugar." Once you raise insulin (spike surge), lipolysis (fat burning or oxidation) stops cold! Post W/O, your metabolism is flying, so this becomes a balancing act.

Other measures are Glutamine and/or BCAAs, a la Charles Poliquin. There is also an efective way to use regualr aminos that I will discuss in the future! Dosing is a whole other post!

Lastly, 90% of the products out there designed to block serum cortisol suck, especially those with PS, (cortisol causes catabolism-LBM loss), stick with the basics, that's why glutamine is so effective!

FC

Tank316 · 04-06-2002, 08:11 AM

just in my experience, i have used glutamine for both, bulking and dieting and even the training i did for the strongman contests, and i think this is a great supplement.

Robboe · 04-06-2002, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fat Cell
The glutes will be a function of genetics, and Prince is right, it will be in the 3-4% range! there are a lot of people that make it under 4% w/o the glutes!

Yep, that's why i said it wasn;t definite and just a gauge. Although i do find <4% and no glute striations extremely hard to believe.

Oh and there really is no need for glutamine when bulking. I had a big argument on wbb about this last year.

Dr. Pain · 04-06-2002, 12:53 PM

TCD, I'm going to have to jump in once more, with all respect, I like and appreciate your advice!

Glutamine is a useful training tool period!

A major study of three groups of elite athletes: 1) ones that could train day after day, no problems, 2) those who felt they couldn't but managed to, and 3) Athletes who could not train daily....

The study determined that the latter two groups were glutamine difficient.

This is important! glutamine not only repairs gut problems, halts sugar cravings, aids in the repair and resynthesis of muscle tissue, it is also cell volumizing, and most important, anti-inflamitory in nature!

Anything, and I repeat, ANYTHING, that always you to train harder, or recover better, is a good thing. Bulk or cut!

FC

Robboe · 04-06-2002, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fat Cell

A major study of three groups of elite athletes: 1) ones that could train day after day, no problems, 2) those who felt they couldn't but managed to, and 3) Athletes who could not train daily....

The study determined that the latter two groups were glutamine difficient.

I'm willing to bet these "athletes" are marathon runners or something along those lines. Most studies showing that glutamine is beneficial were done on test subjects under quite extremem conditions of stress eg marathon runners - and also some on burns patients. For the body to release glutamine into the blood stream in high enough amounts to be of any significance it needs to be under quite a lot of stress. You may be thinking that lifting heavy weights frequently each week is stressful enough, but i'm talking like more than 4 times a week with a stressful life outside the weights room also. Maybe if you lead a life like this you may derrive some benefits from glutamine supplementation. Otherwise, chances are you won't notice much, if any benefit from it. It's during pre-contest dieting stages when this may be true and glutamine can be good like i said.

This is important! glutamine not only repairs gut problems, halts sugar cravings, aids in the repair and resynthesis of muscle tissue, it is also cell volumizing, and most important, anti-inflamitory in nature!

Anything, and I repeat, ANYTHING, that always you to train harder, or recover better, is a good thing. Bulk or cut!

FC

I'll give you that it's good for immune system strengthening, since it boosts gluthionine (sp?) levels. In fact, here's some bitsd and bobs saying that it's good for immune system but not much else:

http://www.sportsci.org/jour/9901/rbk.html

Here's a quote from another article:

"For moderate levels of physical activity the body is able to synthesize sufficient glutamine to meet demands, but in highly active or traumatized people the concentrations of plasma glutamine is lower than normal. He suggested that supplementing with glutamine may be important for reducing the risk of infection. Lindy Castell supported this idea when she presented data showing a decrease in the reported incidence of respiratory infections in athletes given glutamine (0.1 g per kg body weight) after a marathon. Newsholme also suggested glutamine supplementation might reduce exercise-induced tissue damage and help recovery from hard training."

http://www.sportsci.org/jour/9902/ams.html

This states that the body can synthesize enough of it's own glutamine unless it is under high stress - they used a marathon as a test. How many of you lifters on this board run marathons? I realise that some of this glutamine may come from muscle, but as i said previously, bodybuilder's diets contain food high in glutamine anyway for the body to synthesize, so chances that glutamine supplementation will be of great enough use to warrant it's price is debatable.

Another:

"Preliminary studies indicate that supplementation with branched-chain amino acids (4 to 16 g) and/or glutamine (4 to 12 g) can prevent the decline or even increase glutamine concentration during exercise (Kreider, 1998). In theory these changes in glutamine concentration could have beneficial effects on protein synthesis and immune function. However, in the few studies of increased glutamine availability, there was little or no effect on performance or immune status (Rohde et al., 1998; Nieman and Pedersen, 1999)."

http://www.sportsci.org/jour/9901/rbk.html#Nieman99

There's also the consideration that of the essential aminos, the body doesn't use them unless all eight are present (like an incomplete protein source).

Also, if you're bulking and taking in whey, milk or any type of milk products then you're bound to be getting more than enough.

At the end of the day, if you have money to spend, knock yourself out, but i think the majority of the lifters in the world would do better keeping the money and buying steak.

I've used glutamine before and the difference "on" compared to "off" is unoticable - except for the cash i save.

I just don;t think glutamine warrants it's price.

Robboe · 04-06-2002, 01:18 PM

Another thing, the studies showing glutamine is useful under stressful conditions is where the supplemet companies got the whole "glutamine prevents overtraining" crap from, since overtrainning is very stressful and catabolic.

**Prince** · 04-06-2002, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Prince, you'll have shredded glutes and hams at around about 6%. There's a basic gauge i think i can remember (nothing definite but it's a nice measure)

10% - visible abs

8% - shredded lower back

6% - shredded glutes and hams (contest conditioing but most usually go a bit lower)

It depends on the individual.

I have been as low at 7%, and my glutes were barely even defined.

So, yes, maybe some (not sure who?) could at 6%, others no.

Also, I guess it might depend on how we're defining the word "shredded".

Dr. Pain · 04-06-2002, 02:50 PM

Not here to argue.

A couple of things, I sell well into thousands of pounds of glutamine per year, dealing with elite athletes, national-international -and olympic class caliber! They often bring their own Doctors, physioloigists and trainers with them! I can quote lay literature or peer reviewed studies also!

My suggestion would be for each individual to try glutamine at different dosages and protocols! Some of the Canadian and British Swim teams use glutamine post W/O and between meals.
As does Poliquin, et al. The theory here is that it is more utilizable by muscle tissue, not having to compete w/other aminos!

(btw, the food sources you quoted are high in L-glutamic acid(pepetide bonded), not L-glutamine)

Some use it Pre and Post W/O, both to supress serum cortisol and for recovery! Others post and before bedtime. Dosing is all over the map, there are studies indicating increases in plama levels at one to two grams, with diminishing returns in the 10-13 gram range, other "experts" suggest take as much as you can afford!

I want to say this about studies, in this country always question who funded and who conducted the study! There is tremendous bias! Not only is a hypothesis generated, but so are the parameters and conclusions formed to substantiate the theroy, otherwise there will be no more money, hence no more work for those conducting some of "these studies!"

I HAVE EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE FROM THOUSANDS A (not just N=6 or 10 or whatever). GLUTAMINE WORKS, YOU ARE LESS SORE, YOU RECOVER FASTER, YOU CAN TRAIN HARDER!

Next issue! I take competitors to shows, put them on stage! Last show,..

next page

FC

Dr. Pain · 04-06-2002, 02:58 PM

Last show, I brought 2 competitors into a field of 83. It was small show because of drug testing! Out of 83 and many in the 3-4% range, there were NONE with striated glutes!

The show before 115-120 deep, I had directly or indirectly advised 7 competitors (5 men and 2 women), including a national level competitor, (he did Musclemania 4 weeks later), and there were only one or two people with semi- striated glutes in that field!

Look around, it's not even that common in the Pro ranks!

FC

Tank316 · 04-06-2002, 02:58 PM

Fat Cell, that is an awesome post.

thank you...

Dr. Pain · 04-06-2002, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tank316
Fat Cell, that is an awesome post.

thank you...

Thanks Tank, and Props to TCD, he is pretty impressive, we are just having a discussion, not a debate!

FC

**Prince** · 04-06-2002, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fat Cell
Last show, I brought 2 competitors into a field of 83. It was small show because of drug testing! Out of 83 and many in the 3-4% range, there were NONE with striated glutes!

The show before 115-120 deep, I had directly or indirectly advised 7 competitors (5 men and 2 women), including a national level competitor, (he did Musclemania 4 weeks later), and there were only one or two people with semi- striated glutes in that field!

Look around, it's not even that common in the Pro ranks!

FC

Thank you.

Robboe · 04-06-2002, 04:19 PM

Not to sound cheeky here, but the fact that you sell glutamine suggests you may be slightly bias towards it.

I still don't believe it warrants the price. And i still think it's overrated. I'm doing great with my scrambled eggs and steak

Tank316 · 04-06-2002, 05:36 PM

yes it is good to debate and discuss and to learn...

props to tcd

**dg806** · 04-06-2002, 06:06 PM

FC great posts! Look forward to when you have more time to spend on here. I think you have very helpful advice to give!

04-04-2002, 02:35 PM	#1
GYM GURU Registered User Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Agg town aka Arlington, Tx. Posts: 205	Suggestions anyone !!! Whats the best way to shed water for a show & what is the best way to get shredded glutes.
	Never say never & never give up. There is ALWAYS someone worse off than you !

04-04-2002, 02:47 PM	#2
dg806 Guardian of The Homeland Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Charlotte NC Posts: 17,434	Maximum Strength Taraxatone® Cutting-edge herbal definition formula The original and best-selling herbal definition formula, Taraxatone, is now more powerful and effective than ever. New, Maximum Strength Taraxatone is designed to dramatically reduce excess water retention, while adding critical electrolytes. It supports extreme muscular definition and vascularity faster and more effectively than any other product available according to top-level competitive bodybuilders. Get ultra-ripped in just three days—guaranteed!http://www.cytodyne.com/
	www.sbmuscle.com

04-04-2002, 03:22 PM	#3
GYM GURU Registered User Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Agg town aka Arlington, Tx. Posts: 205	Thanks dog . Any suggestions on the glutes question ?
	Never say never & never give up. There is ALWAYS someone worse off than you !

04-04-2002, 06:52 PM	#4
realdeal Amateur Bodybuilder Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 367	i think to get shredded glutes you have to work your "ass off" AND have the genetics. Right now when i do cardio in the morning every step i take i squize my glutes and hamstrings. Hopefully i will see the results come show time.
	Keep Educating, KNOWLEDGE is the POWER

04-05-2002, 10:33 AM	#5
GYM GURU Registered User Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Agg town aka Arlington, Tx. Posts: 205	Has sqeezing your glutes on the treadmill help out . Have you noticed anything yet ! Thanks for the reply dog !
	Never say never & never give up. There is ALWAYS someone worse off than you !

04-05-2002, 11:04 AM	#6
SteveDeBeave I forgot my wallet! Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 130	Nothing better then lunges for your glutes. Do 4 sets a week and your sure to have a tight a$$. Of course if it's covered in fat you need to look at your diet and cardio.
	PAIN IS WEAKNESS LEAVING THE BODY

04-05-2002, 11:23 AM	#7
w8lifter Join Date: May 2001 Location: Around..... Posts: 14,964	GG...I'll get you your drying out info as soon as I get sec....busy today!

04-05-2002, 11:49 AM	#8
Prince the one & only Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 33,977 Blog Entries: 25 Photos: 320	Shredded Glutes = get to about 3% body fat
	SBMuscle.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEM Products - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclePharm - Complete Nutritional Arsenal BigBackGrips - If you lift weights you've got to try these grips! HumaneVoLabs - Foaming Transdermal Delivery System. Creatine Ethyl Ester HCL (CEE) On Sale $17.49 per bottle!

04-05-2002, 03:29 PM	#9
GYM GURU Registered User Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Agg town aka Arlington, Tx. Posts: 205	Can a person do too much cardio ? I heard that if you take alot of glutamine while doibng alot of cardio then a person would loose the fat & not the muscle ? Is this correct ?
	Never say never & never give up. There is ALWAYS someone worse off than you !

04-05-2002, 04:15 PM	#10
w8lifter Join Date: May 2001 Location: Around..... Posts: 14,964	Glutamine will help preserve muscle, but you can still do too much cardio. Losing the fat is a function of the right diet and the proper amt of cardio done at the right time.

04-06-2002, 06:09 AM	#11
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,141	Prince, you'll have shredded glutes and hams at around about 6%. There's a basic gauge i think i can remember (nothing definite but it's a nice measure) 10% - visible abs 8% - shredded lower back 6% - shredded glutes and hams (contest conditioing but most usually go a bit lower)
	Being held down by The Man

04-06-2002, 07:56 AM	#13
Dr. Pain Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Get the Duct Tape...I'm Ripped Again! Posts: 11,239	TCD, usually your info is "spot on", just want to help out a little here! The glutes will be a function of genetics, and Prince is right, it will be in the 3-4% range! there are a lot of people that make it under 4% w/o the glutes! There are several ways to preserve LBM, lifting wise, nutritionally and with supplementation! Basics: Always lift for MASS, cut or bulk! Use cardio as a tool only, one of many, as little and as late as you can get away with! Many times w/cardio you are losing pound for pound BF and LBM! (or even more LBM) Don't drop calories too drastically, change macronutrients (P, C, and F) first, tweak programs in steps, every 3-5 weeks! I will be coming here more often in a few weeks and will help people with their programs ! (I hate the word diet) Lastly, while an insulin spike post W/O is considered anti-catabolic, it is very difficult to gauge the effectiveness of "how much sugar." Once you raise insulin (spike surge), lipolysis (fat burning or oxidation) stops cold! Post W/O, your metabolism is flying, so this becomes a balancing act. Other measures are Glutamine and/or BCAAs, a la Charles Poliquin. There is also an efective way to use regualr aminos that I will discuss in the future! Dosing is a whole other post! Lastly, 90% of the products out there designed to block serum cortisol suck, especially those with PS, (cortisol causes catabolism-LBM loss), stick with the basics, that's why glutamine is so effective! FC

04-06-2002, 08:11 AM	#14
Tank316 P/RR/Sh Warrior Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Barron,Wi Posts: 4,345 Photos: 8	just in my experience, i have used glutamine for both, bulking and dieting and even the training i did for the strongman contests, and i think this is a great supplement.
	P/RR/Sh Warrior. Epic's new man beast.

04-06-2002, 12:53 PM	#16
Dr. Pain Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Get the Duct Tape...I'm Ripped Again! Posts: 11,239	TCD, I'm going to have to jump in once more, with all respect, I like and appreciate your advice! Glutamine is a useful training tool period! A major study of three groups of elite athletes: 1) ones that could train day after day, no problems, 2) those who felt they couldn't but managed to, and 3) Athletes who could not train daily.... The study determined that the latter two groups were glutamine difficient. This is important! glutamine not only repairs gut problems, halts sugar cravings, aids in the repair and resynthesis of muscle tissue, it is also cell volumizing, and most important, anti-inflamitory in nature! Anything, and I repeat, ANYTHING, that always you to train harder, or recover better, is a good thing. Bulk or cut! FC

04-06-2002, 01:18 PM	#18
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,141	Another thing, the studies showing glutamine is useful under stressful conditions is where the supplemet companies got the whole "glutamine prevents overtraining" crap from, since overtrainning is very stressful and catabolic.
	Being held down by The Man

04-06-2002, 02:50 PM	#20
Dr. Pain Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Get the Duct Tape...I'm Ripped Again! Posts: 11,239	Not here to argue. A couple of things, I sell well into thousands of pounds of glutamine per year, dealing with elite athletes, national-international -and olympic class caliber! They often bring their own Doctors, physioloigists and trainers with them! I can quote lay literature or peer reviewed studies also! My suggestion would be for each individual to try glutamine at different dosages and protocols! Some of the Canadian and British Swim teams use glutamine post W/O and between meals. As does Poliquin, et al. The theory here is that it is more utilizable by muscle tissue, not having to compete w/other aminos! (btw, the food sources you quoted are high in L-glutamic acid(pepetide bonded), not L-glutamine) Some use it Pre and Post W/O, both to supress serum cortisol and for recovery! Others post and before bedtime. Dosing is all over the map, there are studies indicating increases in plama levels at one to two grams, with diminishing returns in the 10-13 gram range, other "experts" suggest take as much as you can afford! I want to say this about studies, in this country always question who funded and who conducted the study! There is tremendous bias! Not only is a hypothesis generated, but so are the parameters and conclusions formed to substantiate the theroy, otherwise there will be no more money, hence no more work for those conducting some of "these studies!" I HAVE EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE FROM THOUSANDS A (not just N=6 or 10 or whatever). GLUTAMINE WORKS, YOU ARE LESS SORE, YOU RECOVER FASTER, YOU CAN TRAIN HARDER! Next issue! I take competitors to shows, put them on stage! Last show,.. next page FC Last edited by Dr. Pain : 04-06-2002 at 02:53 PM.

04-06-2002, 02:58 PM	#21
Dr. Pain Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Get the Duct Tape...I'm Ripped Again! Posts: 11,239	Last show, I brought 2 competitors into a field of 83. It was small show because of drug testing! Out of 83 and many in the 3-4% range, there were NONE with striated glutes! The show before 115-120 deep, I had directly or indirectly advised 7 competitors (5 men and 2 women), including a national level competitor, (he did Musclemania 4 weeks later), and there were only one or two people with semi- striated glutes in that field! Look around, it's not even that common in the Pro ranks! FC

04-06-2002, 02:58 PM	#22
Tank316 P/RR/Sh Warrior Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Barron,Wi Posts: 4,345 Photos: 8	Fat Cell, that is an awesome post. thank you...
	P/RR/Sh Warrior. Epic's new man beast.

04-06-2002, 04:19 PM	#25
Robboe Designer Supplements Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Newcastle Posts: 5,141	Not to sound cheeky here, but the fact that you sell glutamine suggests you may be slightly bias towards it. I still don't believe it warrants the price. And i still think it's overrated. I'm doing great with my scrambled eggs and steak
	Being held down by The Man

04-06-2002, 05:36 PM	#26
Tank316 P/RR/Sh Warrior Elite Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Barron,Wi Posts: 4,345 Photos: 8	yes it is good to debate and discuss and to learn... props to tcd
	P/RR/Sh Warrior. Epic's new man beast.

04-06-2002, 06:06 PM	#27
dg806 Guardian of The Homeland Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Charlotte NC Posts: 17,434	FC great posts! Look forward to when you have more time to spend on here. I think you have very helpful advice to give!
	www.sbmuscle.com