Thread: Isocaloric Diet

I have before and several times too. IMO, it's the best diet for recomposition and for newbies to this lifestyle.

Originally Posted by Jodi

I have before and several times too. IMO, it's the best diet for recomposition and for newbies to this lifestyle.

Thanks, Jodi! I have been carb cycling(cutting) and I'm about to start bulking in a few weeks. I read someone's post that this diet was good for cutting, maintenance, and bulking. So I figured I would use it for maintenance and go right into my bulk. Is there anything special I should know or is it just as simple as 33/33/33 ratio?

It's that simple Just choose your food choices wisely.

Watch the fat and carb types you consume. Healthy fats and low and moderate GI carbs are best.

At some point, the utility of those fats becomes problematic at higher caloric loads and may cause a reduction in insulin sensitivity.

Rather than reasoning out whether or not this diet will meet your goals, you want to ask: what is my anticipated calorie budget?

Assume that you'll need near the maximum protein supply per lb bodymass of ~1.5-2.0 g protein. You need about 15-20 calories per pound of bodymass for bulking, spread out over 6-8 meals. The remainder determines the quality of mass added, and thats determined by your insulin sensitivity and energy expenditure, with some fine tuning provided by supplements.

One thing to remember: the jump in calories must be spread out as much over the day as possible and meals kept to a moderate intake. That may mean eating every two hours. The trick is to keep insulin output from continuously spiking. To do that, you need nutrient dense, lower GI carbs and healthy fats. When you consume your starchy carbs, preceed them with a serving of fiberous carbs to modulate insulin production. You don't want to turn off glucose metabolism and protein production. This will leave you feeling tired, will block your goal of adding lean muscle mass, and hamper recovery from heavy training. Contrary to popular belief, insulin management from cardio won't impair lean muscle mass growth, it will promote it, if used properly to maintain or elevate a factor called anaerobic threshold (the point at which your energy metabolism switches from aerobic to anaerobic). Use your starchy carbs for energy replacement, and use fiberous carbs, in generous proportions, for slowing fat and glucose intestinal absorption in other meals (outside of the exertion window). You'll get more bang for your dietary buck that way, by supplying a contant flow of muscle building material - provided you have sufficient muscle building stimulus. And that brings us to training intensity, and anaerobic threshold again.

You see? The beauty here is that the better the anerobic threshold, the harder you can train without CNS burnout (oxidative damage from extreme stimulation). You still want to stay below 90% of exertion potential, but you can train at higher intensity and for longer periods, if you use that cardio to coax your mitrochondria into optimial aerobic metabolism. Cardio is one moderate session every other day and one moderate low session, each day. A smartly paced walk, with nice deep belly breathing, will do wonders for resetting cortisol levels boosted by higher intensity muscle stimulating exercise.

We've got a lot of information here - and no bottom line on your question, because there is no one diet that does it all. When we train anaerobically, we tend to burn both glucose and fats, but will burn through stored glucose faster than we would otherwise (under moderate intensity training), so a larger portion of our energy must come from fatty acid oxidation. We also need maximally stored glucose - glycogen. Bot source of emergy production must be optimized, else our bodies switch to protein as an energy source (through catabolism of newly formed muscle fibers, the opposite of your goal for hypertrophy).

Both glycogen synthesis/storage and fatty acid metabolism are strongly affected by insulin response. The higher the insulin spike and the lower your insulin sensitivity, the more likely that you'll de-rail your bulking goals for lean high quality - sustainable, that's key - muscle mass.

Thank You Both for your responses I really appreciate it, and Trouble I think I am going to have to read yours a couple of times.

Yup. I posted a lot of information in my reply.

I tried to explain to you that the bulk of your excess calories must be carefully parsed between healthy fats and healthy low and moderate GI carbs, and that these excess fat and starchy carb calories hit the intestines and can generate an insulin response. Under normally functioning insulin control (eg, you are insulin sensitive) you have no problems, as insulin in exceedingly anabolic.

However, I can guarantee you that many of us not very insulin sensitive. Therefore, the best way to guard against insulin working against you - slowing muscle growth and recovery, and causing fat storage of excess calories - is to ensure that the insulin response is muffled a bit (as excess calories tends to induce insulin easily). That is best done with whole vegetable fiber, consuming it with each serving of starchy carbs and fats. And also with use of cardio to train muscle cells to be more insulin efficient. Whey protein will also help, when used in moderation and within the exercise exertion window.

The jolly green Giant didn't get big by sucking down whey and dextrose.

Originally Posted by Trouble

Watch the fat and carb types you consume. Healthy fats and low and moderate GI carbs are best.

At some point, the utility of those fats becomes problematic at higher caloric loads and may cause a reduction in insulin sensitivity.

Rather than reasoning out whether or not this diet will meet your goals, you want to ask: what is my anticipated calorie budget?

Assume that you'll need near the maximum protein supply per lb bodymass of ~1.5-2.0 g protein. You need about 15-20 calories per pound of bodymass for bulking, spread out over 6-8 meals. The remainder determines the quality of mass added, and thats determined by your insulin sensitivity and energy expenditure, with some fine tuning provided by supplements.

One thing to remember: the jump in calories must be spread out as much over the day as possible and meals kept to a moderate intake. That may mean eating every two hours. The trick is to keep insulin output from continuously spiking. To do that, you need nutrient dense, lower GI carbs and healthy fats. When you consume your starchy carbs, preceed them with a serving of fiberous carbs to modulate insulin production. You don't want to turn off glucose metabolism and protein production. This will leave you feeling tired, will block your goal of adding lean muscle mass, and hamper recovery from heavy training. Contrary to popular belief, insulin management from cardio won't impair lean muscle mass growth, it will promote it, if used properly to maintain or elevate a factor called anaerobic threshold (the point at which your energy metabolism switches from aerobic to anaerobic). Use your starchy carbs for energy replacement, and use fiberous carbs, in generous proportions, for slowing fat and glucose intestinal absorption in other meals (outside of the exertion window). You'll get more bang for your dietary buck that way, by supplying a contant flow of muscle building material - provided you have sufficient muscle building stimulus. And that brings us to training intensity, and anaerobic threshold again.

You see? The beauty here is that the better the anerobic threshold, the harder you can train without CNS burnout (oxidative damage from extreme stimulation). You still want to stay below 90% of exertion potential, but you can train at higher intensity and for longer periods, if you use that cardio to coax your mitrochondria into optimial aerobic metabolism. Cardio is one moderate session every other day and one moderate low session, each day. A smartly paced walk, with nice deep belly breathing, will do wonders for resetting cortisol levels boosted by higher intensity muscle stimulating exercise.

We've got a lot of information here - and no bottom line on your question, because there is no one diet that does it all. When we train anaerobically, we tend to burn both glucose and fats, but will burn through stored glucose faster than we would otherwise (under moderate intensity training), so a larger portion of our energy must come from fatty acid oxidation. We also need maximally stored glucose - glycogen. Bot source of emergy production must be optimized, else our bodies switch to protein as an energy source (through catabolism of newly formed muscle fibers, the opposite of your goal for hypertrophy).

Both glycogen synthesis/storage and fatty acid metabolism are strongly affected by insulin response. The higher the insulin spike and the lower your insulin sensitivity, the more likely that you'll de-rail your bulking goals for lean high quality - sustainable, that's key - muscle mass.

GREAT INFORMATION! So eat the protein, the EFA's, the veggies, and then the starch? Sounds good to me. I see Kobiashy does that with his eating as well.

What do you think about separating complex carbs from protein to increase carb and protein absorption. Alkaline and acid cancel each other?

I've been following isocaloric, or close to it, for quite some time now. Seems to work very well for me; I don't mess with success.

My split is currently more like 30% protein and 35% a piece of carbs and fats. My protein is high enough as it is at 30% of my total calories, so I just cut it off there.

Originally Posted by big boi 1906

GREAT INFORMATION! So eat the protein, the EFA's, the veggies, and then the starch?

Yup. Asian-style diet. Always eat protein then complex carbs, then starchy carbs, fat is embedded in the whole foods, maybe a little in salad dressing.

[QUOTE}What do you think about separating complex carbs from protein to increase carb and protein absorption. Alkaline and acid cancel each other?[/QUOTE]

I eat protein with complex carbs. The fiber is critical for slowing down an otherwise strong release of insulin from amino acid signaling in the gut and also to modulate uptake, especially if we wish to gain as much benefit as possible from a larger protein serving (40-50 grams). You will hear comments make about the lack of capacity for absorption of nutrients, particularly fast release protein. This is true, if the viscosity of the meal is a fluid. How to change that condition and prolong and improve uptake? Use a complex carb OR use soluble fiber (which the fiberous carb has as well as insoluble fiber, while starchy carbs are a rich source of soluble fiber).

Trouble's Lesson for the Day: Fiber is vitally important to encouraging the fingerlike villi that line the small intestine. These fingers respond to dietary insoluble fiber by lenghening and becoming more metabolically active as a surface for the all important microbial community in your gut. Lose the fiber, and these fingers shrink and slough off over a period of months, leaving the intestines much less efficient at absorbing nutrients. Fiber also feeds the microbial community. This community is fundamentally important to us, because they are the source of many protvitamins and cofactors that are necessary for proper metabolic energy regulation, immune function, and protein synthesis. Feed them with fiber and with probiotic food sources. I will talk about this in future posts.

Absolute truth: the weakest link in the connection between what we eat and achieving our training goals is how well our gut transforms and absorbs the foods and supplements we take. The smoother the gut, the lower the absorption surface, and the less benefit obtained from our diet and supplement dollars.

Back to our dialog on diet:

They key is the use of fats to promote lipolysis (fat burning). I would add a tablespoon of olive oil or use Sesathin, or use Sesalean in cooking. I would always use a small amount of flavored vinegar after each meal, to adjust pH and induce proper redox potential to optimize energy production.

Originally Posted by CowPimp

I've been following isocaloric, or close to it, for quite some time now. Seems to work very well for me; I don't mess with success.

My split is currently more like 30% protein and 35% a piece of carbs and fats. My protein is high enough as it is at 30% of my total calories, so I just cut it off there.

Is it hard to do this split when you start eating more calories, i.e. 3200+, or is it not so bad. I just felt like it would be a lot of fat once you got this high? I ask this because I had though about doing 35/35/30 carb/protein/fat split because I'm kind of skinny fat and I wanted to reduce my carbs. Before I was on a basic 40/40/20 split.

Originally Posted by Trouble

To do that, you need nutrient dense, lower GI carbs and healthy fats. When you consume your starchy carbs, preceed them with a serving of fiberous carbs to modulate insulin production. You don't want to turn off glucose metabolism and protein production.

So, you are suggesting eating food items of a meal in a certain sequence? meaning eat one food item at a time and finish eating it before moving onto the next? e.g. finish the tuna first, followed by the veggies, followed by sweet potato ?

Originally Posted by ddawg

Is it hard to do this split when you start eating more calories, i.e. 3200+, or is it not so bad. I just felt like it would be a lot of fat once you got this high? I ask this because I had though about doing 35/35/30 carb/protein/fat split because I'm kind of skinny fat and I wanted to reduce my carbs. Before I was on a basic 40/40/20 split.

I think isocaloric is much more feasible that 40-40-20 at really high calorie numbers. It's hard, and unecessary, to consume that much protein at a certain point. I'm eating about 4300 calories per day right now on a maintenance diet. 40% of that is 1720 calories per day in protein, which is 430g of protein. I weight 196-198, so that is more than double my bodyweight in protein. Totally unecessary. 30%, by contrast, is 1290 calories, which equates to about 320g of protein. This is still very high, but a little more reasonable. I don't think I'll be consuming any more than that. In fact, I probably consume a tad bit less than that; more like 275-300g.

Contrary to popular belief, I don't think a high fat diet is bad. There is some kind of misnomer going around about fat in the diet. That is largely because most people who consume high fat diets are also consuming a ridiculous amount of saturated fats with that. I, on the other hand, eat primarily healthier fats: olive oil, nuts/nut butter, safflower oil, hemp seed oil, fish oil, sunflower kernels, etc.

CowPimp: if you are in maintenance mode, there is absolutely no reason for you to be comsuming more than 1.5g/lb bodymass. Futhermore, you're consuming 21.5 calories for lb bodymass, which is a bit more than typical for maintenance.

I agree, more protein isn't the answer - for you, in your current maintenance state. The poster clearly stated they are interested in bulking. In fact, you are eating more like you are in bulking mode.

Now, your comment on fats is a good one. Your diet contains healthy fats (monunsaturated, from fish, olive oil, seeds and nuts). Hemp oil is an interesting food type, and its one of the few natural sources of PUFAs that features the desired 3:1 ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 fats.

Used in moderate servings, fats are an excellent energy source - assuming your fatty acid metabolism and insulin sensitivity are in line (that is, your coupled liver and adipocyte metabolism is lypolytic, fat burning, rather than lipophylic, fat storing). When these fats are consumed in a healthy whole foods enriched diet (that has both soluble and insoluble fibers present in each meal), they provide energy for peak athletic performance.

Most of us, however, don't have optimized, healthy insulin management. These folks will do just a bit better on slighly less fat and starchy fibers and better on slightly higher protein and fiberous carbs as our primary calorie sources and may need to restrain excess calories. That means NOT doing the typical bulking diet, but rather aiming for a slow, steady progressive body recomp, replacement of fat mass with lean muscle mass. This lower calorie, insulin moderating diet affords a stready progression towards efficient energy metabolism, as insulin receptors regain regains sensitivity, and glucose synthesis and storage, as well as fatty acid release, transport and utilization in mitochrondria assumes a more functional status.

Originally Posted by BulkMeUp

So, you are suggesting eating food items of a meal in a certain sequence? meaning eat one food item at a time and finish eating it before moving onto the next? e.g. finish the tuna first, followed by the veggies, followed by sweet potato ?

Yeah. That's exactly what I'm advocating here.

Receptors in the oral cavity are complex, numerous, and diverse. They are responsible for sensing and sending information to the brain so that the appropriate enzymes, digestive factors, and glucose moderating hormones are released, tailored to the type of nutrients presented in the oral cavity and foregut (stomach and first few feet of intestines).

You can try the experiment yourself. Eat a starchy carb, wait a few minutes, and then eat protein. Do you feel hungry or satiated? Later on, eat a starchy fast release carb, follow it with a serving of fiberous carb and then protein. Compare effects. Next meal, reverse the pattern. Protein first, then a fiberous carb, and then starchy carb and or fat. Compare notes, and if you observe a difference in how you respond, with respect to hunger control, then you maybe should follow this approach.

If you observe no difference, then don't worry about stepwise consumption of food typesl. Depends on your production of gherlins and insulin, and that is governed by hormone receptors in oral cavity, pancreas, liver, and their control within the brain. Some people are more sensitive to these hormonal appetite triggers than others.

Originally Posted by Trouble

CowPimp: if you are in maintenance mode, there is absolutely no reason for you to be comsuming more than 1.5g/lb bodymass. Futhermore, you're consuming 21.5 calories for lb bodymass, which is a bit more than typical for maintenance.

I agree, more protein isn't the answer - for you, in your current maintenance state. The poster clearly stated they are interested in bulking. In fact, you are eating more like you are in bulking mode.

I don't think consuming more protein than that is beneficial no matter what the current recomposition goals are. I would say cutting fat is when it might be the most beneficial, but 1.5g/lb is more than enough to maintain lean body mass in my opinon (Assuming your training methods are conducive to that as well).

Also, yes, my maintenance level of calories is high, but it's definitely maintenance for me. I've been at the same weight (196-198) for several weeks now.

Now, your comment on fats is a good one. Your diet contains healthy fats (monunsaturated, from fish, olive oil, seeds and nuts). Hemp oil is an interesting food type, and its one of the few natural sources of PUFAs that features the desired 3:1 ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 fats.

Used in moderate servings, fats are an excellent energy source - assuming your fatty acid metabolism and insulin sensitivity are in line (that is, your coupled liver and adipocyte metabolism is lypolytic, fat burning, rather than lipophylic, fat storing). When these fats are consumed in a healthy whole foods enriched diet (that has both soluble and insoluble fibers present in each meal), they provide energy for peak athletic performance.

Most of us, however, don't have optimized, healthy insulin management. These folks will do just a bit better on slighly less fat and starchy fibers and better on slightly higher protein and fiberous carbs as our primary calorie sources and may need to restrain excess calories. That means NOT doing the typical bulking diet, but rather aiming for a slow, steady progressive body recomp, replacement of fat mass with lean muscle mass. This lower calorie, insulin moderating diet affords a stready progression towards efficient energy metabolism, as insulin receptors regain regains sensitivity, and glucose synthesis and storage, as well as fatty acid release, transport and utilization in mitochrondria assumes a more functional status.

Honestly, I don't think a typical bulking diet is a good idea for anyone. The whole pack on a pound or two a week thing is kind of insane. There's no point in adding unecessary fat. You'll just have to put your LBM at a greater risk when you go to remove it later.

I agree with your later statement though. This is why diet and exercise should be combined instead of trying to skimp on one. They have synergistic effects which allow you to actually achieve the desired results instead of spinning your wheels at a certain point.

Originally Posted by Trouble

Yeah. That's exactly what I'm advocating here.

Receptors in the oral cavity are complex, numerous, and diverse. They are responsible for sensing and sending information to the brain so that the appropriate enzymes, digestive factors, and glucose moderating hormones are released, tailored to the type of nutrients presented in the oral cavity and foregut (stomach and first few feet of intestines).

You can try the experiment yourself. Eat a starchy carb, wait a few minutes, and then eat protein. Do you feel hungry or satiated? Later on, eat a starchy fast release carb, follow it with a serving of fiberous carb and then protein. Compare effects. Next meal, reverse the pattern. Protein first, then a fiberous carb, and then starchy carb and or fat. Compare notes, and if you observe a difference in how you respond, with respect to hunger control, then you maybe should follow this approach.

If you observe no difference, then don't worry about stepwise consumption of food typesl. Depends on your production of gherlins and insulin, and that is governed by hormone receptors in oral cavity, pancreas, liver, and their control within the brain. Some people are more sensitive to these hormonal appetite triggers than others.

Trouble, you never answered my question about the whole Alkaline and Acid.
Do this two cancel each other out when protein and complex carbs are eaten in the same meal. Have any of you guys heard about Don Lemmons diet and ideas about separating proteins from complex carb meals? Something about incomplete digestion of them when they are consumed together.

By they way, Kobayashi is the man!
- eat the protein first my man, the protein first

No,I don't feel there is a need to separate the foods, quite the contrary. I am saying that the stepped combination is essential to elicit the correct balance of gut hormones. If you have an amylase deficiency, thats different and needs to be treated by enzyme supplements. A shortage isn't going to be addressed by separating foods. And for bulking or maintaining lean mass, you want a flow of certain ketogenic amino acids that control lysosomal protein hydrolysis (muscle catabolism). Therefore, a flow of proteins from smalll frequent meals is preferable to divisioning food types into separate meals.

Originally Posted by Trouble

No,I don't feel there is a need to separate the foods, quite the contrary. I am saying that the stepped combination is essential to elicit the correct balance of gut hormones. If you have an amylase deficiency, thats different and needs to be treated by enzyme supplements. A shortage isn't going to be addressed by separating foods. And for bulking or maintaining lean mass, you want a flow of certain ketogenic amino acids that control lysosomal protein hydrolysis (muscle catabolism). Therefore, a flow of proteins from smalll frequent meals is preferable to divisioning food types into separate meals.

Digestive enzyme supps? Also, if I am defecent in amylase enzyme, should I even be taken protein powders or skim milk. Probably not absorbing much protein or nutrients at all.

I tried a muscle milk pack today and it was lactose free. My stomach didn't react badly at all, no bloating or funny noises. I take some whey later, and my stomach swells up like ballon and my stomach starts with the noises again.

Today I bought some Ginger xtract, Acidophilus complex, and some Digestive Enzymes with Lactase and Amylase in them. I hope these work. Might have IBS.

Originally Posted by big boi 1906

I tried a muscle milk pack today and it was lactose free. My stomach didn't react badly at all, no bloating or funny noises. I take some whey later, and my stomach swells up like ballon and my stomach starts with the noises again.

Today I bought some Ginger xtract, Acidophilus complex, and some Digestive Enzymes with Lactase and Amylase in them. I hope these work. Might have IBS.

Amylase will not help you digest lactose, because Amylase is responsible for carb breakdown in the mouth; whereas lactose is digested in the duodenum of the small intestines. Most other carbs do however begin digestion in the mouth with Amylase.