Thread: Body Fat help.

Do the math.

You have dropped by nearly half your estimated fat mass..and virtually all of the change in bodymass has been fat loss!

You have been doing something right for quite a while. Forty pounds in a little less than 6 months. Right on schedule, maybe even a little fast, for healthy weight loss.

You are complaining about???

Oh yeah...you want to lose more. What is your height please? Approximate age and recent weight history (how long were you at the elevatd body fat mass). Also, what are your goals?

Now, you have lost this fat mass...how? What kind of diet?

That will probably give us the answer...also need to know what supplements you used for weight loss please.

You are a text book case in fat loss. This will be an interesting thread.

Stay tuned.

Originally Posted by Trouble

This will be an interesting thread.

Stay tuned.

I'll be here. C0ck D1es3l and I are at about the same point and our stories are somewhat similar.

First off thank you for responding and second I am complaining to the fact that my fat loss has stopped. I am 20 years old and somewhere in the middle of 6'2 to 6'3. I have been quite chunky my whole life but when I go to be a junior in high school thats when things got out of hand. By the middle of my senior year I was at 350 pounds. This is when I decided that I could no longer live this way. So yes, I did what any emotional, unedicated obese teen would do I extreme dieted and over worked out. I pretty much ran a crash diet. I got down to 200 pounds in about 7 months. After that I noticed that I was weak and small and had a shit load of excess skin and just look nasty. I hit another spot of depression and for about a year turned into an alcoholic. Once again I woke up and realized that I had put on a pure 50-60 pounds of pure fat and I would never be happy with the way I was before nor the way I was now. So in January I started doing massive amounts of research and started dieting and working out. I would like to say now that I am pretty well educated on the whole dieting scene but there is always room for improvement. For the past 6 months or so I pretty much have been cycling calories I would go for 3 weeks right around 2000 calories then I would switch for 3 weeks and do around 2400 calories. I was also alternating my workout schedule. Durring my low calories I was going 6 days a week performing moderatley intese walking for 30 minutes after each workout and for the high calorie weeks I did a 4 day on and 1 day off split with the same cardio. But as time went on I got more educated and realized the diet I was on was the not the very best. So, I am now cycling my carbs and my food consists of eggs, tuna, chicken, lean beef, lean turkey, cottage cheese salmon, white fish, brown rice, yams, pretty much all the fiberous greens and low calorie high fiber fruits such as apples and rasberries. On ocasion I have flaxseed whole wheat pancakes, rice cakes, low-fat yogurt. The only supps I am taking are animal pack multi, fish oils 10g, CLA 2g, ala 800 mg, vit-c, L-Glutamine, L-Cysteine 500mg, and flax seed oil 1 tsp. before bed. My goal is to get to a lean 10-12% bf and begin a bulk. I am trying to make a healthy lifestyle while getting as big an lean naturally as possible. Sorry its so long but wanted to try and cover everything.

Well, this isn't helping but I just ate a big bowl of spaghetti. However, I did substitue the hamburger for chicken tendorloins. I'm falling apart.

Umm..don't really have anything productive to tell you, but just wanted to say keep up the good work! (I guess thats productive)

So the big bowl of spaghetti - did it make you feel tired afterwards?

Reason I ask is I'm trying to get an idea of your insulin insensitivity.

There are degrees of problems. In the early stages, its direct - hunger, lipid building and storage, weight gain.

Over time, immune problems (allergies), vitamin deficiencies, depression, and lethargy, as fatty acid metabolism, as well as glucose metabolism become incrementally impaired.

You've got everything you need...now you have to tighten down on insulin sensitivity. Aerobic exercise, and more limited use of starchy carbs and more reliance on complex carbs, the fiberous type, to help fuel you.

If you're not journalling your diet and calorie intake, you need to start (I think you're already doing this) and you'll have to start pushing your metabolism a bit harder - because as your weight declined, so did the ease at which calorie deficit and exercise work for melting off weight.

Typically, you see plateaus as the body drops from more than 30 to 20 percent or less, and then again at 15 and about 10 percent body fat.

For you, 10 percent may be a real hassle to get to, and just might not suit you. You see, its a number to you right now - much touted, and believed to have magical powers. In fact, you can look very good at 12 percent. Even at 15 percent, its not like you're going to have love handles and a fat ass.

You want to make a GRADUAL transitions to a leaner body mass...and heres the key. You want to slowly tighten down on energy metabolism. At the one end, you improve glucose uptake and utilization, storage as glycogen and at the same time, you slowly improve fatty acid metabolism. You switch between them all the time, but as you're dropping in fat mass, you have this complex set of signals going back and forth between liver, pancreas, thyroid, muscle cells, fat cells and brain. We aim to induce the optimal signaling with some of the excess insulin to promote muscle gains. Those muscles, in turn, we encourage to burn fatty acids efficiently.

Everybody (your hormone/metabolic systems) have to come back on line and be functioning just right to get you down to that magical 10 percent body fat mass.

So we're going to focus on insulin management. That means not carb cycling, but more like carb wiggling, from very low starchy mid-GI carbs to a tantalizing feed to restore used glycogen, and only after exercise, not before.

Next, you have to realize that muscle burns calories best. As your body mass dropped, the number of cals burned just moving around has dropped as well. Now you need to build muscle as you lose more fat. You may, in fact, not want to loose much more muscle, just fat....so we aim for a replacement, one to one, of fat mass for muscle mass. And we do this slowly - because we must also produce a certaim mass of support tissue for the new muscle mass. You work to gain muscle, and as you do, you will burn fat more efficiently, and at the same time, take up, use, and store glucose more efficiently.

Does this make sense?

Please take a new picture and post it for your avvy.

"Durring my low calories I was going 6 days a week performing moderatley intese walking for 30 minutes after each workout and for the high calorie weeks I did a 4 day on and 1 day off split with the same cardio."

Now, you are going to go to whole body workouts, every other day, 45 min to one hour, and to HITT cardio, every other day. And you need walks, once per day, 30 min, moderate pace, first thing in the morning. These walk are strictly to build up aerobic capacity, and something we call anaerobic threshold value. We do this by breathing correctly and reducing cortisol by this breathing. I will talk about this later.

If you have a stressful life, again walk in the evening. This time, for 20 min, at a moderate pace, paying attention to your breathing, and dumping all worries from your mind. Best bet is to find a dog to walk.

You walk every day, day in and day out. You must also regulate sleep. This means, in bed at 10 and up at 5 or 6. No late nights in front of the computer or TV. Stimulants are used sparingly at best. Green tea, water, no pop, no coffee. I hope you do not use tabacco.

We are going to take your weight off and we are going to fine tune your thyroid (with supplements and diet) and liver (with diet and stress control), pushing them back to normal function. As they come one line in normal function, your insulin sensitivity will improve dramatically, and you'll *slowly* be able to accomodate more starchy carbs, again, always during the most metabolically active portion of the day in the company of fiberous carbs, and only after your weight training or HITT cardio.

We will now tune your weight training to make it more metabolically active for fat burning as well. This means you move away from the more standard training methods (low reps, higher resistance).

We must also start to use smart fats. These will help fine tune your liver and thyroid function as well, and improve sleep, reduce anxiety and also help immune function.

Does all this make sense?

Yes it all makes sense. After I ate that spaghetti I did not feel at all tired. That is one thing I am never tired I am always energized I work at 530 in the morning and try to go to bed at 930 and I will sometimes lay there until 12 oclock before falling asleep. I also just thought about trying to eat around maintnance or a little above and try to put on some quality lbm while keeping fat gain to zero or very little for a couple of months then hitting a strict diet again and see if that kick starts the fat loss again. whats your take on that? I also did post some new pictures in my gallery.

Yes, you will not eat for loss. You will eat for maintenance, but you will change how you burn calories - always, very slowly. No fast changes - that will cause crash and burn later on.

I wish to see a different avvy - one more representative of where you are now.

As you change, so will your avvy.

I also wish you to put away your scale. No more weighing. You will clothing and the mirror, objectively, to determine your success.

I am not a therapist. I am not a trainer (although I help many with training), and I am not a dietician or nutritionist.

I have, lets say, insider knowledge on the molecular mechanics of the body and a decent understanding of muscle and adipose tissue function. I have an advanced knowledge of adrenal, thyroid, and liver physiology. We will use this knowledge to help your body make stepwise accomodations to a slow but steady increase in caloric demand, and will encourage a response of muscle mass gains in energetic efficiency and quality, so that you maintain the muscle added. Above all, we do not want the body to sense starvation, as a shortfall of critical amino acids.

You will please order creatine (CEE) and BCAAs if you do not already have them.

Your insulin sensitivity is not too bad. Lucky. Plus, you probably put on muscle easily. You are large framed. We will keep that in mind with respect to your weight goals.

I really apreciate your help its funny becuase everything your saying is exactly what I think my body has been telling me. I have been learning to listen to my body here lately and I think it is time for a change from the whole dieting scene and concentrate more on making gains in lbm.

I have no problem with dedication and hard work it is the foundation of my life. I believe that anything that you want in this world has a price and that price is sacraficing even sometimes when its the things you love and want the most. I am just getting sick of working so hard and not getting the results that I desire. I am a very competitive person and I will never be satisfied with myself that is why I think I will one day be great in this sport.

Do you have any knowledge on post weight loss. For example I still have extra skin do you think that will eventually go away I have read so many mixed reviews it isn't funny. I also have a screwed up chest from being over weight so long.

Two items.

The first is excess skin and elasticity. Chances are, at your young age, that your skin is fairly elastic and will, in time, adapt to the reduction in fat cell volume. You're going to have to maintain your body weight, probably close to five years, maybe longer, before your body will start to permanently chuck cells (as in reduce the fat cell number - different than the fat cell volume you've lost).

Meanwhile, your skin is adapting to the change in tension due to the volume shift. You can encourage the production of elasin and collagen fibrils by using a skin care product that has alpha lipoic acid, vitamin c ester, and DMAE. Also alpha- and beta-hydroxy acids. You can also look for products that contain something called copper peptides - they've been shown to also aide in production of support polymers. There is not right answer, but a diet that has the right vitamins, an improvement in skin tone from solid nutrition and exercise, these will go a long way to restore lost elasticity to your skin. You may, nor may not need corrective surgery for excess skin in the future.

The second item. I need you to begin to make solid changes in body image. That means you change your clothing. Shirts tucked in, jeans that fit, belts. Body conscious clothing. You've made some great strides, and now its time to adjust your physical view of your body to fit your mental one.

Think thin. See yourself as energetic, positive, and thinner than you were, just months ago. Keep that image with you. You are going to make substantial changes in your appearance yet...and what we want is a healthy body image to go with it.

I'll tell you a secret. We have many folks on these boards who have body dysmorphia. Mental body image that doesn't fit their physical one. It affects their behavior, and can lead to poor choices in daily life style.

See yourself as becoming healthier, leaner, more lively and attractive. Thats why I need you to change that avvy, please. If you haven't had a hair cut, get one. You're tall - what is your posture like? Do you stand tall and straight? Tall people attract attention. Try to kleep good posture - you'll look and feel better because you'll also appear slimmer. You have broad shoulders - enjoy them, because they're going to get broader, n proportion to the rest of you. Aim for a clean line in your clothing, and a smart appearance.

You will find, that how your friends reaction to you will change over time. At first, they are uncertain, because you are new to them again in appearance and attitude. But as your confidence climbs with your continued success, so too, you will find that people gravitate and accept you more easily. Those who exhibit an easy confidance in body language are also apt be respected and trusted. Remember this fact, it will take you a long way in life.

Please explain what you mean by "screwed up chest".

Originally Posted by Trouble

Now, you are going to go to whole body workouts, every other day, 45 min to one hour, and to HITT cardio, every other day.

Trouble, you are very knowledgeable. I'm not trying to disprove you or anything. But I've been doing full body wo's for several months. Since mid jan i switched to a cut and kept the full body wo. But HIIT was not recomended (by other respected members on this board) while doing a 3x full body wo. However steady state cardio (30-40 mins) was acceptable. So i was curious to know your option for that suggestion.

Originally Posted by Trouble

we are going to fine tune your thyroid (with supplements and diet) and liver (with diet and stress control), pushing them back to normal function. As they come one line in normal function, your insulin sensitivity will improve dramatically, and you'll *slowly* be able to accomodate more starchy carbs,

Could you elaborate on how this would be achieved? unless you are in the process of explaining this later to the thread owner.

What is the logic behind a moderate 30-40 min cardio workout being better than a 20-min HITT workout??

There is none. Recent studies showed that they burned comparable fat. Note the recommendation of the walks. These are for mild cardiovascular training, but explicit for breathing retraining. Thats both stress control and additional oxygen boost for fat burning, which would be the *only* difference in the duration of exercise between the HITT and longer moderate cardio workout.

Thyroid function requires: C16 fatty acids from olive oil, selenomethionine, methylation vitamins and the amino acids necessary for glutathione production in liver, all of which have been shown to control thyroid hormone and thyroid hormone receptor gene regulation. Moreover the biosynthesis pathway of thyroid hormone is dependent upon liver and adrenal function. Both are highly sensitive to insulin sensitivity, by way of cholesterol and bile acid biosynthetic pathways. Both cholesterol and bile acids themselves bind to key gene regulation receptors.

I have deffinetly already exhibited all the behaviors that you suggested such as the wear clothes that fit and keep good posture and all those things. I deffinetly have more confidence when I go out and things of that nature and all my friends and family tell me how amazing it is that I lost so much weight except for my grandma who yells at me all the time saying that im too skinny. I mean to me its not the confidence and all the compliments from people that I'm striving for I have that now and have had that in the past with my first initial weight loss. If that was what I was going for I would say I don't care and do what I want because I have already acheived that. I am going for something far greater I am going for personal satisfaction. I am doing this for myself so I can be happy in life and when I look in the mirror and flex beable to say wow look what you have done. I don't care what anyone else thinks I don't care if 100 people come to me and tell me im fat or skinny that just doesn't concern me. I can't really explain it but what I'm doing is not for other people nor there approval but for my own approval.

What I mean by a screwed up chest is that I believe I have gynecomastia not from puberty and deffinetly not from steroids but from being overweight for so long. I do not believe that it is fat tissue I could be wrong but I highly doubt it. No matter how much I diet and train I will always have the scars of a fat person i.e. bitch tits and extra skin.

Originally Posted by Trouble

What is the logic behind a moderate 30-40 min cardio workout being better than a 20-min HITT workout??

There is none. Recent studies showed that they burned comparable fat.

It wasnt about SS cardio being better than HIIT. It was about recovery, esp of the lower body. 3x full body alternated with 3x HIIT would put quite a stress on the lower body not allowing for proper recovery. Dont you think?

Edit: I just noticed that maybe we are referring to to different things. I noticed you mentioned "20-min HITT". Where as i was referring to HIIT. If done correctly, a few minutes of HIIT would be effective. However HIIT is not recommended for anyone who is obese or physically unfit (generally speaking. not referring to the owner of this thread). They would suffer lactic acid failure before getting to their VO2max, which is important for HIIT to be beneficial.

Please take another look at the thread authors avvy.

He is not obese. He looks pretty fit - very much different than the first photo, which featured him at his heaviest, I believe.

The present avvy is how he must view himself, in his mind.

My training suggestions stated here are specific to this thread.

However, if you feel that CD could benefit from standard moderate cardio sessions, I see no problem with their use. He is a busy student; perhaps he should decide which cardio mode will work best with his schedule.

I do advocate use of music for cardio; it staves off boredom, reduces apparent effort expended, and provides beat incentive to maintain pace.

I also recommend use of a heart rate monitor.

I agree about CD. I was just asking a curious question in general

Originally Posted by BulkMeUp

It wasnt about SS cardio being better than HIIT. It was about recovery, esp of the lower body. 3x full body alternated with 3x HIIT would put quite a stress on the lower body not allowing for proper recovery. Dont you think?

Edit: I just noticed that maybe we are referring to to different things. I noticed you mentioned "20-min HITT". Where as i was referring to HIIT. If done correctly, a few minutes of HIIT would be effective. However HIIT is not recommended for anyone who is obese or physically unfit (generally speaking. not referring to the owner of this thread). They would suffer lactic acid failure before getting to their VO2max, which is important for HIIT to be beneficial.

HIIT can be doen with people that are overweight.....It is going to be that their intensity wont be as high as someone who is in better shape. Also, they could increase the length of the intervals if they wanted and just do interval work. At an obese state, anything they do is going to be "high intensity". I mean think about it also....fat people take spinning class all the time. That is nothing more then interval cardio right? How many people do you see dropping dead in spin class?

RE: total body workouts and HIIT cardio.

a) it can be done. It is tough on the lower body and it would depend on how you structure the intensity of you lower body workouts around the HIIT cardio days. I have done it before. It can wreack havok on your workout if you are sore from cardio and trying to squat heavy or deadlift.

b) I know Lyle McDonald has recommend doing SS cardio instead of HIIT cardio on 3x/week total body workout days because as he says...the intensity to train legs heavy is important and all the SS cardio is going to do is jsut help you create a larger caloric defecit at the end of the week.

c) you can certainly work up to it as your program progresses on. the other hard part is the fact that you are trying to do so much work while being in a hyporcaloric state. You want to preserve muscle mass when you diet. Lower the volume of training and increase the intensity. Doing to much steady state is not going to help you out much....your muscles are there on a use it or loose it basis. SS cardio does nothing to enhance them. However, the flip side is to much HIIT cardio that you can pretty much say "bye bye" to your lower body mass. The idea is to know how much to add, how much to do and at what times.

d) A good program is going to have a steady blend of each SS and some HIIT cardio. The SS can be done in interval fashion also. Using a heart rate monitor is fine. RPE can also work well. If I were doing total body workouts I may group my carido like this....lets say mon, wed, fri:

mon- weights (heavy day)
tues- SS cardio
wed- weights (light day)
thurs- off
fri- weights (moderate day)
sat- HIIT cardio
sun- off


Bulk me up.......all this stuff is great but you need to look at the context of your program that I wrote for you and the goals that you have while you are dieting....which were to maintain/gain strength, improve power, and drop fat.

Do you need HIIT cardio? Maybe you could throw a day in but, if you look at the third day of weights I laid out for you.....it is all energy system development (LA training) which is pretty much the same as doing HIIT cardio, just with weights.

You have to look at things in the context of your specific training program.

Originally Posted by Trouble

My training suggestions stated here are specific to this thread.

her answer was shorter then mine.

Originally Posted by BulkMeUp

However HIIT is not recommended for anyone who is obese or physically unfit (generally speaking. not referring to the owner of this thread). They would suffer lactic acid failure before getting to their VO2max, which is important for HIIT to be beneficial.

Actually, SS is not efficient for moving the LT up unless it is done above the LT anyway, which few do. IMO, moving the lactate threshold up is of utmost importance for weight loss. The higher the intensity you can utilize the aerobic pathways, the more cals you will burn from fat while doing SS. IMO, SS is most efficient when you have a high LT so I would have to think that HIIT would be better to begin with, then you can switch to a combo of the 2 once you get proficient at HIIT.

For obese people, they may have to use the recumbent bike to reduce impact on joints, though.

So if I want to increase my LBM while gaining no fat and probably droping some at a slow rate how does this diet look?

meal#1-5am

8 egg whites
2 whole eggs
1 cup oats
1 med. apple
2 tbsp. natural pb
2 CLA caps
500mg vit c
200mg ALA
5g glutamine

meal#2-7:30am

6oz tuna
1 cup brown rice
1 cup green veggies
2 fis oil caps

meal#3-9:30am

2 chicken tendorloins
1 cup brown rice
1 cup green veggies
2 fish oil caps

meal#4-noon

3 chicken tendorloins
1 cup brown rice
1 cup green veggies
1 med. apple
2 fish oil caps
500 mg vit. c
200mg ala

meal#5-3:00pm pre w/o

1scoop wpi
1scoop muscle milk

PWO-5:30pm
2 scoops wpi
5g glutamine
500mg vit.c

meal#6-6:30pm
6oz tuna
3 sweet potato patties
1 cup green veggies
1 med apple
2 fish oil caps
200mg ala

9:00pm
ZMA

9:30pm-before bed
1 cup cottage cheese
1 scoop wpi
5g glutamine
500mg nac
1 tsp. flax seed oil

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

Actually, SS is not efficient for moving the LT up unless it is done above the LT anyway, which few do. IMO, moving the lactate threshold up is of utmost importance for weight loss. The higher the intensity you can utilize the aerobic pathways, the more cals you will burn from fat while doing SS. IMO, SS is most efficient when you have a high LT so I would have to think that HIIT would be better to begin with, then you can switch to a combo of the 2 once you get proficient at HIIT.

For obese people, they may have to use the recumbent bike to reduce impact on joints, though.

yea, exactly. I don't think anyone will disagree that HIIT cardio is the way to go for fat loss.

Like I said, if one is obese, their intervals just aren't going to be as intense or as long as the person who is more in shape. But, they will still see a great benefit from what they are doing because the intensity level is specific to their own abilities.

Originally Posted by P-funk

You have to look at things in the context of your specific training program.

Oh i completly agree. I asked a curious question in reference to a prevoius full body wo that i did. I wasnt considering HIIT with the routine you wrote up for me. That routine is sending me to an early grave as it is

You guys posted on here and never commented on my meal plan??

Originally Posted by C0ck D1es3l

You guys posted on here and never commented on my meal plan??

trouble is your girl. we are all fat asses.

what??

Originally Posted by P-funk

yea, exactly. I don't think anyone will disagree that HIIT cardio is the way to go for fat loss.

Like I said, if one is obese, their intervals just aren't going to be as intense or as long as the person who is more in shape. But, they will still see a great benefit from what they are doing because the intensity level is specific to their own abilities.

Originally Posted by Dale Mabry

Actually, SS is not efficient for moving the LT up unless it is done above the LT anyway, which few do. IMO, moving the lactate threshold up is of utmost importance for weight loss. The higher the intensity you can utilize the aerobic pathways, the more cals you will burn from fat while doing SS. IMO, SS is most efficient when you have a high LT so I would have to think that HIIT would be better to begin with, then you can switch to a combo of the 2 once you get proficient at HIIT.

For obese people, they may have to use the recumbent bike to reduce impact on joints, though.

The way i know it, true HIIT is a sprint followed by low/mod intensity. When i did HIIT, i started with a few mins and increased it gradually. I did 15sec sprint and 45sec low. I found that was quite intense. So it makes me wonder when is see someone being recommended to start with 20min HIIT something that i'v seen in several training threads. So for someone who might be unconditioned (again, with no reference to this thread owner), sprinting would not be easy esp for someone who is obese.

But I see the point you guys are making. I agree that for an unconditioned individual any higher level of activity will be benefcial for fat loss. Not trying to be argumentative or anything with anyone. Just putting forward things they way i see it. Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong. I can take it. I'm a big boy

Originally Posted by C0ck D1es3l

what??

is your girl.

Originally Posted by BulkMeUp

The way i know it, true HIIT is a sprint followed by low/mod intensity. When i did HIIT, i started with a few mins and increased it gradually. I did 15sec sprint and 45sec low. I found that was quite intense. So it makes me wonder when is see someone being recommended to start with 20min HIIT something that i'v seen in several training threads. So for someone who might be unconditioned (again, with no reference to this thread owner), sprinting would not be easy esp for someone who is obese.

But I see the point you guys are making. I agree that for an unconditioned individual any higher level of activity will be benefcial for fat loss. Not trying to be argumentative or anything with anyone. Just putting forward things they way i see it. Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong. I can take it. I'm a big boy

well, you are basically saying the same thing I am saying but you are getting confused with the time thing.

20min of HIIT cardio just means that you are going to do 20min of HIIT cardio.

Now, for you, you are using a 1:3 work to rest ratio. You work for 15sec and you rest for 45sec. So, 20min of HIIT cardio for you would mean 20 brutal sprints, since your work:rest takes place in one minute.

However, think about it. if someone is deconditioned, they are going to need a longer period of rest to get their heart rate back down (hence the use of the heart rate monitor) so that they can optimally go 100% all out for the next sprint. So, they may have something like a work to rest ratio of 30sec work and maybe 90sec rest. Now, in 20min they are only going to be doing 10 sprints.

see what I mean?