Thread: No Whey No Way

So basically they say it goes right through the system? That makes alot of sense.

Get your cals purely from shakes, see what happens. As long as you are at the same caloric output with real food, nothing would change. I would love to hear there scientific evidence to support there findings.

I am not saying this is the case, but you would be suprised at the number of Doctors that know jack shit about nutrition.

I am not saying this is the case, but you would be suprised at the number of Doctors that know jack shit about nutrition.

I'm taking a college nutrition class with a woman who has a Phd in clinical nutrition and has worked in and out of hospitals and clinics. She said most doctors don't know much about nutrition. In fact, she said that the hospitals are one of places where people are most nutrient deprieved.
As far as the whey controversy, I study organic chemistry and there are two structures for amino acids. One is metabolized by the body and one is not. The one that is metabolized is found in nature and the one that is not has to be made in a lab, previously it did not even exist ( I think it is the L-form for most amino acids). When chemists make these amino acids, both structures will inevitably be a product because both structures are just as stable. They would have to seperate the good structure from the bad structure then. ( If any of you take bcaa's, look at the nutririton label and see if there is one form, it should say R or L. If both are present, then one is doing nothing for you!) Anyways proteins are broken down in the body to be absorbed as amino acids. I wonder if the alternate structure of the amino acid make up protein, then it wound't be metabolized. Interesting...

not only do most doctors not know about nutrition. most of them know alomost nothing about exercise science.

find someone that specializes in sports medicine. or find an exercise physiologist and talk to them.

Originally Posted by microtel

I have been using eating/drinking protein powders for 2 years, and this may be a tired old argument, however...

Numerous MD's, medical doctors and endocrinologists tell me that ALL of the whey/glutamine/protein powders on the market get passed through the body quickly and are useless for building muscle. Powders (fake food) never are absorbed to make a real difference in muscle building, according to several docs. The MD's say it's a marketing scam to believe "Whey powder" or any protein powder will build muscle. Other amateur BBs tell me that they're off powders too b/c it makes them feel bloated and fat. Anyone relate to this?

It's a fair question. Where is the scientific evidence protein powders contribute to building muscle? Most MDs tell me I will get better protein absorption from eating a hamburger. That's well known already. Real food always works. Then why do so many BBs eat powder protein? Is it only for sponsorship? I have been buying whey for two years and it seems to be more of a psychological boost than a physical advantage.

What do you guys think? These same MD's also tell me there's no scientific
evidence that a multivitamin does any good either.

whey protein is a byproduct of milk, why would the body not absorb it?

what he ^ said.

as far as i know all whey protein poweders are derrived from food at one point. so how on earth would your body be able to recognize an amino from a hamburger and an amino from a protein shake?

not-so-intelligent-person-here:
well, If protein shakes has all that chemicals/ingredients in it (ie, protein, vitamins, iron, fat etc...), It would have to be absorbed cause protein cannot be urinated, if it does the kidney is mulfunctioning. So the protein and other chemicals in it has to be absorbed.

whey protein is a byproduct of milk, why would the body not absorb it?

Im gonna say that if anyone asked me about protein shakes. lol.

Originally Posted by DiGiTaL

not-so-intelligent-person-here:
well, If protein shakes has all that chemicals/ingredients in it (ie, protein, vitamins, iron, fat etc...), It would have to be absorbed cause protein cannot be urinated, if it does the kidney is mulfunctioning.

Dietary protein is broken down into Amino Acids (AAs) and absorbed. Those AAs which aren't used for protein synthesis can be broken down into a carbon bit and a nitrogen bit. The carbon bit is converted into glucose which then follows the glucose pathway (burned, stored as glycogen or converted into fat) and the nitrogen bit is converted into urea, which is urinated out. Some AAs can be broken down into a ketone bit and a nitrogen bit.

Dr.'s dont know shit about nutrition. Look at em, they are old, flabby and fat....haaaaaaaaa

Originally Posted by femalemuscle

Dr.'s dont know shit about nutrition. Look at em, they are old, flabby and fat....haaaaaaaaa

Dr.'s know a lot and they contribute a lot to society. however some just suck.

[QUOTE=DiGiTaL;1608640]not-so-intelligent-person-here:
well, If protein shakes has all that chemicals/ingredients in it (ie, protein, vitamins, iron, fat etc...), It would have to be absorbed cause protein cannot be urinated, if it does the kidney is mulfunctioning. So the protein and other chemicals in it has to be absorbed.



the thing that makes proteins different from CHO and lipids is that it has nitrogen. When the body has excess protein and has no need for it, it won't store the protein. Instead it will deamnimate it, meaning urinate out the amine (nitrogen) portion of it and store the rest.

So whey protein is bi-product of dairy. Does anyone know how protein powders are made? do they isolate it from foods or is it chemically engineered in a lab?

I agree, I've used protein powders before and I think it's pretty insignificant or zero difference. It's a complete marketing scam; it's all in the mind. Natural is the best way to go; foods like tuna, some meats, etc. The only thing though about a hamburger is I believe that when you cook the food you kill some of the proteins... but I'm not exactly sure. It's definitely a marketing ploy that truly doesn't do much or anything when comparing to eating proteins in food. I can say this fairly confidently.

Originally Posted by PeteyPablo7

I agree, I've used protein powders before and I think it's pretty insignificant or zero difference. It's a complete marketing scam; it's all in the mind. Natural is the best way to go; foods like tuna, some meats, etc. The only thing though about a hamburger is I believe that when you cook the food you kill some of the proteins... but I'm not exactly sure. It's definitely a marketing ploy that truly doesn't do much or anything when comparing to eating proteins in food. I can say this fairly confidently.

Thanks for all the replys. Again, some docs do have a grasp on nutrition, the sources I'm sighting include all MDs: an endocrinologist, a family physician, a doctor who specializes in stomach and gastrology(sp?), and a urologist.

I think all of us on this board want any advantage for muscle growth and better health but EVERY doc I talk to says the same thing about protein powders and multi-vitamins, no proof they work or are absorbed efficiently. None of my docs say the powders are dangerous, just that there is no absolute proof, no scientific studies to support the claims of better health and muscle growth with vitamins or protein powders. None. That's it.

Originally Posted by microtel

Thanks for all the replys. Again, some docs do have a grasp on nutrition, the sources I'm sighting include all MDs: an endocrinologist, a family physician, a doctor who specializes in stomach and gastrology(sp?), and a urologist.

I think all of us on this board want any advantage for muscle growth and better health but EVERY doc I talk to says the same thing about protein powders and multi-vitamins, no proof they work or are absorbed efficiently. None of my docs say the powders are dangerous, just that there is no absolute proof, no scientific studies to support the claims of better health and muscle growth with vitamins or protein powders. None. That's it.

They also have no proof that they don't work either. That's not what they do. When you get someone that actually deals with nutrition on a regular basis tell you these things, get back to us.

Originally Posted by ReproMan

They also have no proof that they don't work either. That's not what they do. When you get someone that actually deals with nutrition on a regular basis tell you these things, get back to us.

Do you know of any? Or do you work with a supplement company?

I'm not about avoid all powders yet but they seem to be more of psychological
advantage rather than a physical advantage.

Originally Posted by microtel

Do you know of any? Or do you work with a supplement company?

I'm not about avoid all powders yet but they seem to be more of psychological
advantage rather than a physical advantage.

I don't. But I'm certainly not going to hang on the words of someone that isn't in the field, regardless of what it says on their diploma. Just because someone is a doctor, does not make them an expert in every aspect of health and nutrition (or any for that matter.)

Originally Posted by ReproMan

I don't. But I'm certainly not going to hang on the words of someone that isn't in the field, regardless of what it says on their diploma. Just because someone is a doctor, does not make them an expert in every aspect of health and nutrition (or any for that matter.)

doctors are experts of health; however, they may be wrong sometimes. If a doctor tells me something that I might not completely understand, it's defenitely worth investigating and getting numerous opinoins on.

Originally Posted by forum9351

doctors are experts of health; however, they may be wrong sometimes. If a doctor tells me something that I might not completely understand, it's defenitely worth investigating and getting numerous opinoins on.

Not every aspect. They are experts in their field. You don't go to a Radiologist to find out why your throat is sore and you certainly don't go to a Urologist to find out if your protein supplement is effective....

good point

Totally Biased here of course and I am far from the expert on anything.....but I can tell you several things.

All The Whey was started by men with 70 years of combined experience in the dairy, sports nutrition and nutraceutical industries.

I deal with tons of Weight Loss Surgery and Bariatric Patients all the time. Right after surgery they must maintain a strict all liquid diet for a couple of weeks. They depend on our product to deliver the protein and other nutrients they need TO LIVE! If none of the protein was getting absorbed then they would get real sick real quick. I also deal with many Celiac Patients who use our products because they can't have any Wheat Gluten.

I can also tell you that I have many customers that are body builders, athletes, nutritionists, doctors, dieters and just your average Joe who all swear by our product.

I personally have been using our Whey Protein Isolate & Meal Replacers for almost a year now and it's helped me drop about 60 pounds while still getting my needed daily intake! Not to toot my own horn here, but prior to working for All The Whey I was really up there! All told I have lost about 100 lbs and have about 50 more to go to reach my goal! Just so you know I am currently about 270. I am just starting to kick some major ass and once I reach my goal I'll be an F'ing Adonis!

But I digress........

Here is a little science for ya if you like that angle:

__________________________________________________
Q How does whey protein compare to other protein sources?
A All The WheyTM Protein Powder is defined as a complete protein because it contains all the essential amino acids which the body requires.

A number of different methods are used to evaluate protein quality but regardless of which method is used, whey protein comes out on top each time.


Protein source PDCAAS(1) BV(2) PER(3) PD(4) NPU(5)
Whey Powder 1.15 104 3.6 98 92
Soy Protein 1.00 74 2.1 95 61
Beef 1.00 80 2.9 98 73



(1) Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score measures protein quality based on amino acid requirements of the human body

(2) Biological Value measures the amount of protein that is retained from the absorbed protein

(3) Protein Efficiency Ratio measures the ability of a protein to support growth

(4) Protein Digestibility measures the fraction of the dietary protein that is absorbed from the diet

(5) Net Protein Utilization expresses the ratio of nitrogen used for tissue formation to the amount of nitrogen ingested.
__________________________________________________ _____________

The bottom line is that there is plenty to support the benefits of Whey Protein products, I am living proof if nothing else.

Whether you're eating food, drinking shakes, taking pills or getting nutrients injected straight into your bloodstream, your body will use it. Your body doesn't care how it gets into your stomache, and when it does get there it uses everything it can use, regardless of form.

The answer to this questions lies in organic chemistry. If the same whey protein molecule is found in milk as in powder, it will without doubt be metabolized by the body. Since proteins are broken down to be absorbed as amino acids, it depends on whether the structure of the amino acid is the same in the powder as in the milk.

Originally Posted by P-funk

not only do most doctors not know about nutrition. most of them know alomost nothing about exercise science.

find someone that specializes in sports medicine. or find an exercise physiologist and talk to them.

I try to tell people this all the time. most gen practice MD's are cluleless about nutrition in general for the average joe. and in regards to the nutrient requirements for athletes asking them anything is a complete waste of time.

ReproMan is right on as well.

Dietary protein is broken down into Amino Acids (AAs) and absorbed. Those AAs which aren't used for protein synthesis can be broken down into a carbon bit and a nitrogen bit. The carbon bit is converted into glucose which then follows the glucose pathway (burned, stored as glycogen or converted into fat) and the nitrogen bit is converted into urea, which is urinated out. Some AAs can be broken down into a ketone bit and a nitrogen bit.

Yes Sir.
I totally forgot that if too much protein is consumed it is then urinated. Good to know, Thanks for the info.

<quote> Whether you're eating food, drinking shakes, taking pills or getting nutrients injected straight into your bloodstream, your body will use it. Your body doesn't care how it gets into your stomache, and when it does get there it uses everything it can use, regardless of form.


Exactly! Buying protein shakes would be merely a post-workout meal replacement. Nothing more, nothing less. Not a magic pill. I don't have a huge amount of experience to back my claim, but I've talked to an expert who has a degree in sports medicine, and certainly is very credible.

Originally Posted by microtel

I have been using eating/drinking protein powders for 2 years, and this may be a tired old argument, however...

Numerous MD's, medical doctors and endocrinologists tell me that ALL of the whey/glutamine/protein powders on the market get passed through the body quickly and are useless for building muscle. Powders (fake food) never are absorbed to make a real difference in muscle building, according to several docs. The MD's say it's a marketing scam to believe "Whey powder" or any protein powder will build muscle. Other amateur BBs tell me that they're off powders too b/c it makes them feel bloated and fat. Anyone relate to this?

It's a fair question. Where is the scientific evidence protein powders contribute to building muscle? Most MDs tell me I will get better protein absorption from eating a hamburger. That's well known already. Real food always works. Then why do so many BBs eat powder protein? Is it only for sponsorship? I have been buying whey for two years and it seems to be more of a psychological boost than a physical advantage.

What do you guys think? These same MD's also tell me there's no scientific
evidence that a multivitamin does any good either.

I really like the way you explain your issues around it.
The reason a burger would give you a better protein bio-availabilty and absorption is because to be any good for muscle growth, protein has to have something to bond to,..like a complex carb for example. So even the shitty little bit you'd get from a burger would go further twd that than just doing a shake where it was virtually all protein.

Protein is the mortar in muscle .. the stuff that sticks it together and packs it dense.
On average protein takes 6- 8 and up to 10 hrs to digest. If you don't uuse all that protein or can't absorb the aminos it breaks down into, as it breaks down you just pee it out as urea.
.. aand get that bloaty thing going because it stacks cummulatively as you add serves through the day, and besides being the nature of the texture of protein means it can't move ( and think bowels and gut like a raw sausage)unless it has to something to break it down, and protein iis the thing in our diets that stops us feeling hungry, yet takes the longest to break down.. if you have 'too much' before you add something else to break it up, you arre going to get bloated.

I like to run as lean as possible myself where ever practical and possible and so instead of eating additional carbs to break it down ( adding bulk btw), I like to assist the protein break down into the amino of L-arginine ( the precursor for natural production of HGRH) by using red wine and a simple carb ( like a fruit stick that acts as a syrup ) and fruit and a reeeally tiny serve of grains ( 3/4 dry piece of wholemeal or rice crackers once to 1 1/2 x a day) or something ( with a literal handful of laxatives twice a day ish) to flush it out ( otherwise commonly known as catabolising) to gain as immediate access to the L-Arginine as I can get and flush the rest out of my body asap leaving me more comfortable to workout more and to higher ..depth of contraction(??) and so on without having to be bogged down or slowed up by the actual bulk of anything in my digestive tracts that isn't being used. Hence how I came to manage 11 and 12 hr daily workouts and feed it well and maintain it for yrs for at leeast 5-6 mth stints without a days break and so end up in world class condition.. and was still strong enough and fit enough at 45 ish kgs ( 169cm) to hold my own against world class heavy weights. .. so much so that I made a date with the fml hvy weight kungfu champion and played with the bigger men at the gyms of male world title fame.

The only problem with doing thaat though is that you get really nitricly toxic really quickly , nitrogen being a bi-product of protein metabolism , so it becomes imprtant to allso drink something carbonated ( for which I usually use soda water ), which also helps to flush the excess bulk from food waste via a whole other chemical grit lifting wash.

The other issue with that is , just like with steroids, if you don't do a shit load of water or fluid at some stage throughout mOst days as priority, then you put your kidneys and liver and so on in long term danger of shutting down from too high demand.

Of course we know that we can't build muscle without protein and we can't hypertrophy or get the muscle to grow and expand ( because as the buliding blocks of tissue the complex carbohydrate causes the tissue to be more in quantity ..otherwise known as cholesterol .. meaning more tissue to get fluids and blood to travel through per heart pump - mind fluids ) and get the protein to pack the spaces in between beacuse iiit's main association is with blood and fluids , not with tissue.

Fat 's main contribution in the equation , besides in women who need it for estrogen production for a period and so forth, thereafter is for cell communication... something for the cell betweeen cell walls to tell the cell next to it what it's doing . but then .. there 's other math that says that thaat can be acheived with something like a kelp or a high mineral salt potassium intake where the "communication" gets through by a whole other friction.

This is one of my babies in elite performance info, and not something most people will already know, and while it is definately a slightly more contraversial approach, I swear by it.


p.s. i once had chats with a guy who was a trainer and pro-footballer in the U.S. , who was experiementing on ph.d. research btw ( @) ..like the math doesn't speak for itself) , with shakes vs food for bf and performance about protein. of course the minute he gave up his shakes, ..or maybe cummulatively up to 4 weeks after, he slowed down on how much exercise he could comfortablely do, his workouts became less and what he could get out of them suffered aand his bf skyrocketted to where he decided to abort the whole project.
Remember, protein from othher sources is nOt 100% protein and allll that other stuff that it contains, has a caloric aand bulk value all of it's own and is a seperate enitity to the amino or amoniOs that's trying to be unlocked from the protein.


hope that helps you out..

Blooming tianshi Lotus.

I love it. A doctor, who should have a good understanding of the digestive system, saying that organic matter will pass through it without being absorbed for whatever reason.

Awesome.

Thanks for one helluva response to my question. I often hear bias on both sides of the protein "powder" question but I rarely see this much detail. Great stuff, thanks! This forum is a real blessing.

If progressive weight training and clean nutrition is the formula for muscle building, and that combined with eating 1.5 grams of protein per pound of body weight, and to achieve that much protein intake daily for 12-24 weeks during cycles, then that intake is impossible without protein powders.

I could trust the skinny or fat doctor in a white lab coat or I could trust the BodyBuilder with actual field experience.

On the other hand, Arnold claims that the body can only effectively utilize 100 grams of protein a day anyway. And he certainly has field experience. What the hell. I'm not convinced anyone REALLY knows.

peace