No Whey No Way

microtel · 04-20-2007, 04:13 AM

I have been using eating/drinking protein powders for 2 years, and this may be a tired old argument, however...

Numerous MD's, medical doctors and endocrinologists tell me that ALL of the whey/glutamine/protein powders on the market get passed through the body quickly and are useless for building muscle. Powders (fake food) never are absorbed to make a real difference in muscle building, according to several docs. The MD's say it's a marketing scam to believe "Whey powder" or any protein powder will build muscle. Other amateur BBs tell me that they're off powders too b/c it makes them feel bloated and fat. Anyone relate to this?

It's a fair question. Where is the scientific evidence protein powders contribute to building muscle? Most MDs tell me I will get better protein absorption from eating a hamburger. That's well known already. Real food always works. Then why do so many BBs eat powder protein? Is it only for sponsorship? I have been buying whey for two years and it seems to be more of a psychological boost than a physical advantage.

What do you guys think? These same MD's also tell me there's no scientific
evidence that a multivitamin does any good either.

**IainDaniel** · 04-20-2007, 05:58 AM

So basically they say it goes right through the system? That makes alot of sense.

Get your cals purely from shakes, see what happens. As long as you are at the same caloric output with real food, nothing would change. I would love to hear there scientific evidence to support there findings.

I am not saying this is the case, but you would be suprised at the number of Doctors that know jack shit about nutrition.

forum9351 · 04-20-2007, 07:53 AM

Quote:

I am not saying this is the case, but you would be suprised at the number of Doctors that know jack shit about nutrition.

I'm taking a college nutrition class with a woman who has a Phd in clinical nutrition and has worked in and out of hospitals and clinics. She said most doctors don't know much about nutrition. In fact, she said that the hospitals are one of places where people are most nutrient deprieved.
As far as the whey controversy, I study organic chemistry and there are two structures for amino acids. One is metabolized by the body and one is not. The one that is metabolized is found in nature and the one that is not has to be made in a lab, previously it did not even exist ( I think it is the L-form for most amino acids). When chemists make these amino acids, both structures will inevitably be a product because both structures are just as stable. They would have to seperate the good structure from the bad structure then. ( If any of you take bcaa's, look at the nutririton label and see if there is one form, it should say R or L. If both are present, then one is doing nothing for you!) Anyways proteins are broken down in the body to be absorbed as amino acids. I wonder if the alternate structure of the amino acid make up protein, then it wound't be metabolized. Interesting...

**P-funk** · 04-20-2007, 07:55 AM

not only do most doctors not know about nutrition. most of them know alomost nothing about exercise science.

find someone that specializes in sports medicine. or find an exercise physiologist and talk to them.

**Prince** · 04-20-2007, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by microtel

I have been using eating/drinking protein powders for 2 years, and this may be a tired old argument, however...

Numerous MD's, medical doctors and endocrinologists tell me that ALL of the whey/glutamine/protein powders on the market get passed through the body quickly and are useless for building muscle. Powders (fake food) never are absorbed to make a real difference in muscle building, according to several docs. The MD's say it's a marketing scam to believe "Whey powder" or any protein powder will build muscle. Other amateur BBs tell me that they're off powders too b/c it makes them feel bloated and fat. Anyone relate to this?

It's a fair question. Where is the scientific evidence protein powders contribute to building muscle? Most MDs tell me I will get better protein absorption from eating a hamburger. That's well known already. Real food always works. Then why do so many BBs eat powder protein? Is it only for sponsorship? I have been buying whey for two years and it seems to be more of a psychological boost than a physical advantage.

What do you guys think? These same MD's also tell me there's no scientific
evidence that a multivitamin does any good either.

whey protein is a byproduct of milk, why would the body not absorb it?

rmcfar · 04-20-2007, 10:17 AM

what he ^ said.

as far as i know all whey protein poweders are derrived from food at one point. so how on earth would your body be able to recognize an amino from a hamburger and an amino from a protein shake?

DiGiTaL · 04-20-2007, 11:17 AM

not-so-intelligent-person-here:
well, If protein shakes has all that chemicals/ingredients in it (ie, protein, vitamins, iron, fat etc...), It would have to be absorbed cause protein cannot be urinated, if it does the kidney is mulfunctioning. So the protein and other chemicals in it has to be absorbed.

Quote:

whey protein is a byproduct of milk, why would the body not absorb it?

Im gonna say that if anyone asked me about protein shakes. lol.

Nigeepoo · 04-20-2007, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiGiTaL

not-so-intelligent-person-here:
well, If protein shakes has all that chemicals/ingredients in it (ie, protein, vitamins, iron, fat etc...), It would have to be absorbed cause protein cannot be urinated, if it does the kidney is mulfunctioning.

Dietary protein is broken down into Amino Acids (AAs) and absorbed. Those AAs which aren't used for protein synthesis can be broken down into a carbon bit and a nitrogen bit. The carbon bit is converted into glucose which then follows the glucose pathway (burned, stored as glycogen or converted into fat) and the nitrogen bit is converted into urea, which is urinated out. Some AAs can be broken down into a ketone bit and a nitrogen bit.

femalemuscle · 04-20-2007, 12:44 PM

Dr.'s dont know shit about nutrition. Look at em, they are old, flabby and fat....haaaaaaaaa

forum9351 · 04-20-2007, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by femalemuscle

Dr.'s dont know shit about nutrition. Look at em, they are old, flabby and fat....haaaaaaaaa

Dr.'s know a lot and they contribute a lot to society. however some just suck.

forum9351 · 04-20-2007, 08:55 PM

[quote=DiGiTaL;1608640]not-so-intelligent-person-here:
well, If protein shakes has all that chemicals/ingredients in it (ie, protein, vitamins, iron, fat etc...), It would have to be absorbed cause protein cannot be urinated, if it does the kidney is mulfunctioning. So the protein and other chemicals in it has to be absorbed.

the thing that makes proteins different from CHO and lipids is that it has nitrogen. When the body has excess protein and has no need for it, it won't store the protein. Instead it will deamnimate it, meaning urinate out the amine (nitrogen) portion of it and store the rest.

forum9351 · 04-20-2007, 08:59 PM

So whey protein is bi-product of dairy. Does anyone know how protein powders are made? do they isolate it from foods or is it chemically engineered in a lab?

PeteyPablo7 · 04-20-2007, 09:09 PM

I agree, I've used protein powders before and I think it's pretty insignificant or zero difference. It's a complete marketing scam; it's all in the mind. Natural is the best way to go; foods like tuna, some meats, etc. The only thing though about a hamburger is I believe that when you cook the food you kill some of the proteins... but I'm not exactly sure. It's definitely a marketing ploy that truly doesn't do much or anything when comparing to eating proteins in food. I can say this fairly confidently.

microtel · 04-21-2007, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteyPablo7

I agree, I've used protein powders before and I think it's pretty insignificant or zero difference. It's a complete marketing scam; it's all in the mind. Natural is the best way to go; foods like tuna, some meats, etc. The only thing though about a hamburger is I believe that when you cook the food you kill some of the proteins... but I'm not exactly sure. It's definitely a marketing ploy that truly doesn't do much or anything when comparing to eating proteins in food. I can say this fairly confidently.

Thanks for all the replys. Again, some docs do have a grasp on nutrition, the sources I'm sighting include all MDs: an endocrinologist, a family physician, a doctor who specializes in stomach and gastrology(sp?), and a urologist.

I think all of us on this board want any advantage for muscle growth and better health but EVERY doc I talk to says the same thing about protein powders and multi-vitamins, no proof they work or are absorbed efficiently. None of my docs say the powders are dangerous, just that there is no absolute proof, no scientific studies to support the claims of better health and muscle growth with vitamins or protein powders. None. That's it.

ReproMan · 04-21-2007, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by microtel

Thanks for all the replys. Again, some docs do have a grasp on nutrition, the sources I'm sighting include all MDs: an endocrinologist, a family physician, a doctor who specializes in stomach and gastrology(sp?), and a urologist.

I think all of us on this board want any advantage for muscle growth and better health but EVERY doc I talk to says the same thing about protein powders and multi-vitamins, no proof they work or are absorbed efficiently. None of my docs say the powders are dangerous, just that there is no absolute proof, no scientific studies to support the claims of better health and muscle growth with vitamins or protein powders. None. That's it.

They also have no proof that they don't work either. That's not what they do. When you get someone that actually deals with nutrition on a regular basis tell you these things, get back to us.

microtel · 04-21-2007, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReproMan

They also have no proof that they don't work either. That's not what they do. When you get someone that actually deals with nutrition on a regular basis tell you these things, get back to us.

Do you know of any? Or do you work with a supplement company?

I'm not about avoid all powders yet but they seem to be more of psychological
advantage rather than a physical advantage.

ReproMan · 04-21-2007, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by microtel

Do you know of any? Or do you work with a supplement company?

I'm not about avoid all powders yet but they seem to be more of psychological
advantage rather than a physical advantage.

I don't. But I'm certainly not going to hang on the words of someone that isn't in the field, regardless of what it says on their diploma. Just because someone is a doctor, does not make them an expert in every aspect of health and nutrition (or any for that matter.)

forum9351 · 04-21-2007, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReproMan

I don't. But I'm certainly not going to hang on the words of someone that isn't in the field, regardless of what it says on their diploma. Just because someone is a doctor, does not make them an expert in every aspect of health and nutrition (or any for that matter.)

doctors are experts of health; however, they may be wrong sometimes. If a doctor tells me something that I might not completely understand, it's defenitely worth investigating and getting numerous opinoins on.

ReproMan · 04-21-2007, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forum9351

doctors are experts of health; however, they may be wrong sometimes. If a doctor tells me something that I might not completely understand, it's defenitely worth investigating and getting numerous opinoins on.

Not every aspect. They are experts in their field. You don't go to a Radiologist to find out why your throat is sore and you certainly don't go to a Urologist to find out if your protein supplement is effective....

forum9351 · 04-21-2007, 09:08 AM

good point

Spaceman Spiff · 04-21-2007, 11:08 AM

Totally Biased here of course and I am far from the expert on anything.....but I can tell you several things.

All The Whey was started by men with 70 years of combined experience in the dairy, sports nutrition and nutraceutical industries.

I deal with tons of Weight Loss Surgery and Bariatric Patients all the time. Right after surgery they must maintain a strict all liquid diet for a couple of weeks. They depend on our product to deliver the protein and other nutrients they need TO LIVE! If none of the protein was getting absorbed then they would get real sick real quick. I also deal with many Celiac Patients who use our products because they can't have any Wheat Gluten.

I can also tell you that I have many customers that are body builders, athletes, nutritionists, doctors, dieters and just your average Joe who all swear by our product.

I personally have been using our Whey Protein Isolate & Meal Replacers for almost a year now and it's helped me drop about 60 pounds while still getting my needed daily intake! Not to toot my own horn here, but prior to working for All The Whey I was really up there! All told I have lost about 100 lbs and have about 50 more to go to reach my goal! Just so you know I am currently about 270. I am just starting to kick some major ass and once I reach my goal I'll be an F'ing Adonis!

But I digress........

Here is a little science for ya if you like that angle:

__________________________________________________
Q How does whey protein compare to other protein sources?
A All The WheyTM Protein Powder is defined as a complete protein because it contains all the essential amino acids which the body requires.

A number of different methods are used to evaluate protein quality but regardless of which method is used, whey protein comes out on top each time.

Protein source PDCAAS(1) BV(2) PER(3) PD(4) NPU(5)
Whey Powder 1.15 104 3.6 98 92
Soy Protein 1.00 74 2.1 95 61
Beef 1.00 80 2.9 98 73

(1) Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score measures protein quality based on amino acid requirements of the human body

(2) Biological Value measures the amount of protein that is retained from the absorbed protein

(3) Protein Efficiency Ratio measures the ability of a protein to support growth

(4) Protein Digestibility measures the fraction of the dietary protein that is absorbed from the diet

(5) Net Protein Utilization expresses the ratio of nitrogen used for tissue formation to the amount of nitrogen ingested.
__________________________________________________ _____________

The bottom line is that there is plenty to support the benefits of Whey Protein products, I am living proof if nothing else.

Witchblade · 04-21-2007, 02:01 PM

Whether you're eating food, drinking shakes, taking pills or getting nutrients injected straight into your bloodstream, your body will use it. Your body doesn't care how it gets into your stomache, and when it does get there it uses everything it can use, regardless of form.

forum9351 · 04-21-2007, 04:59 PM

The answer to this questions lies in organic chemistry. If the same whey protein molecule is found in milk as in powder, it will without doubt be metabolized by the body. Since proteins are broken down to be absorbed as amino acids, it depends on whether the structure of the amino acid is the same in the powder as in the milk.

LAM · 04-21-2007, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

not only do most doctors not know about nutrition. most of them know alomost nothing about exercise science.

find someone that specializes in sports medicine. or find an exercise physiologist and talk to them.

I try to tell people this all the time. most gen practice MD's are cluleless about nutrition in general for the average joe. and in regards to the nutrient requirements for athletes asking them anything is a complete waste of time.

ReproMan is right on as well.

DiGiTaL · 04-21-2007, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Dietary protein is broken down into Amino Acids (AAs) and absorbed. Those AAs which aren't used for protein synthesis can be broken down into a carbon bit and a nitrogen bit. The carbon bit is converted into glucose which then follows the glucose pathway (burned, stored as glycogen or converted into fat) and the nitrogen bit is converted into urea, which is urinated out. Some AAs can be broken down into a ketone bit and a nitrogen bit.

Yes Sir.
I totally forgot that if too much protein is consumed it is then urinated. Good to know, Thanks for the info.

04-20-2007, 04:13 AM	#1
microtel MicroTel Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 51	No Whey No Way I have been using eating/drinking protein powders for 2 years, and this may be a tired old argument, however... Numerous MD's, medical doctors and endocrinologists tell me that ALL of the whey/glutamine/protein powders on the market get passed through the body quickly and are useless for building muscle. Powders (fake food) never are absorbed to make a real difference in muscle building, according to several docs. The MD's say it's a marketing scam to believe "Whey powder" or any protein powder will build muscle. Other amateur BBs tell me that they're off powders too b/c it makes them feel bloated and fat. Anyone relate to this? It's a fair question. Where is the scientific evidence protein powders contribute to building muscle? Most MDs tell me I will get better protein absorption from eating a hamburger. That's well known already. Real food always works. Then why do so many BBs eat powder protein? Is it only for sponsorship? I have been buying whey for two years and it seems to be more of a psychological boost than a physical advantage. What do you guys think? These same MD's also tell me there's no scientific evidence that a multivitamin does any good either.
microtel MicroTel Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 51

04-20-2007, 05:58 AM	#2
IainDaniel My Role Model Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 15,846	So basically they say it goes right through the system? That makes alot of sense. Get your cals purely from shakes, see what happens. As long as you are at the same caloric output with real food, nothing would change. I would love to hear there scientific evidence to support there findings. I am not saying this is the case, but you would be suprised at the number of Doctors that know jack shit about nutrition.
	Obstacles don't have to stop you. If you run into a wall, don't turn around and give up. Figure out how to climb it, go through it, or work around it. Michael Jordan

04-20-2007, 07:55 AM	#4
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 30,563	not only do most doctors not know about nutrition. most of them know alomost nothing about exercise science. find someone that specializes in sports medicine. or find an exercise physiologist and talk to them.
	http://pwtraining.blogspot.com/.....come and see what is on my mind! Ivonne's Blog on Health and Wellness! Optimum Sports Performance "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

04-20-2007, 10:17 AM	#6
rmcfar i love cutting Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 266	what he ^ said. as far as i know all whey protein poweders are derrived from food at one point. so how on earth would your body be able to recognize an amino from a hamburger and an amino from a protein shake?
rmcfar i love cutting Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 266	"When i was 15 years old, i took all of my clothes off and looked in the mirror. When i stared at myself naked, I realized that to be perfectly proportioned I would need 20 inch arms to match the rest of me." -Arnold

04-20-2007, 12:44 PM	#9
femalemuscle Registered User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Vegas Baby!! Posts: 170 Photos: 5	Dr.'s dont know shit about nutrition. Look at em, they are old, flabby and fat....haaaaaaaaa
	"PAIN is WEAKNESS leaving the body" www.myspace.com/twizted_steel

04-20-2007, 08:55 PM	#11
forum9351 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 295	[quote=DiGiTaL;1608640]not-so-intelligent-person-here: well, If protein shakes has all that chemicals/ingredients in it (ie, protein, vitamins, iron, fat etc...), It would have to be absorbed cause protein cannot be urinated, if it does the kidney is mulfunctioning. So the protein and other chemicals in it has to be absorbed. the thing that makes proteins different from CHO and lipids is that it has nitrogen. When the body has excess protein and has no need for it, it won't store the protein. Instead it will deamnimate it, meaning urinate out the amine (nitrogen) portion of it and store the rest.
	Knowledge is Power

04-20-2007, 08:59 PM	#12
forum9351 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 295	So whey protein is bi-product of dairy. Does anyone know how protein powders are made? do they isolate it from foods or is it chemically engineered in a lab?
	Knowledge is Power

04-20-2007, 09:09 PM	#13
PeteyPablo7 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 11	I Agree I agree, I've used protein powders before and I think it's pretty insignificant or zero difference. It's a complete marketing scam; it's all in the mind. Natural is the best way to go; foods like tuna, some meats, etc. The only thing though about a hamburger is I believe that when you cook the food you kill some of the proteins... but I'm not exactly sure. It's definitely a marketing ploy that truly doesn't do much or anything when comparing to eating proteins in food. I can say this fairly confidently.

04-21-2007, 09:08 AM	#20
forum9351 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 295	good point
	Knowledge is Power

04-21-2007, 11:08 AM	#21
Spaceman Spiff Registered User Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 92	Totally Biased here of course and I am far from the expert on anything.....but I can tell you several things. All The Whey was started by men with 70 years of combined experience in the dairy, sports nutrition and nutraceutical industries. I deal with tons of Weight Loss Surgery and Bariatric Patients all the time. Right after surgery they must maintain a strict all liquid diet for a couple of weeks. They depend on our product to deliver the protein and other nutrients they need TO LIVE! If none of the protein was getting absorbed then they would get real sick real quick. I also deal with many Celiac Patients who use our products because they can't have any Wheat Gluten. I can also tell you that I have many customers that are body builders, athletes, nutritionists, doctors, dieters and just your average Joe who all swear by our product. I personally have been using our Whey Protein Isolate & Meal Replacers for almost a year now and it's helped me drop about 60 pounds while still getting my needed daily intake! Not to toot my own horn here, but prior to working for All The Whey I was really up there! All told I have lost about 100 lbs and have about 50 more to go to reach my goal! Just so you know I am currently about 270. I am just starting to kick some major ass and once I reach my goal I'll be an F'ing Adonis! But I digress........ Here is a little science for ya if you like that angle: __________________________________________________ Q How does whey protein compare to other protein sources? A All The WheyTM Protein Powder is defined as a complete protein because it contains all the essential amino acids which the body requires. A number of different methods are used to evaluate protein quality but regardless of which method is used, whey protein comes out on top each time. Protein source PDCAAS(1) BV(2) PER(3) PD(4) NPU(5) Whey Powder 1.15 104 3.6 98 92 Soy Protein 1.00 74 2.1 95 61 Beef 1.00 80 2.9 98 73 (1) Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score measures protein quality based on amino acid requirements of the human body (2) Biological Value measures the amount of protein that is retained from the absorbed protein (3) Protein Efficiency Ratio measures the ability of a protein to support growth (4) Protein Digestibility measures the fraction of the dietary protein that is absorbed from the diet (5) Net Protein Utilization expresses the ratio of nitrogen used for tissue formation to the amount of nitrogen ingested. __________________________________________________ _____________ The bottom line is that there is plenty to support the benefits of Whey Protein products, I am living proof if nothing else.
	matt@allthewhey.com www.allthewhey.com 800-866-1970 M-F 7pm-10pm Sat. 10am-5pm EDT 10% off with my "matt05" coupon code!

04-21-2007, 02:01 PM	#22
Witchblade Succinct Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Holland Posts: 4,422 Photos: 2	Whether you're eating food, drinking shakes, taking pills or getting nutrients injected straight into your bloodstream, your body will use it. Your body doesn't care how it gets into your stomache, and when it does get there it uses everything it can use, regardless of form.
	My Linkdump [LSFW] IM Official FAQ [WORK IN PROGRESS]

04-21-2007, 04:59 PM	#23
forum9351 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 295	The answer to this questions lies in organic chemistry. If the same whey protein molecule is found in milk as in powder, it will without doubt be metabolized by the body. Since proteins are broken down to be absorbed as amino acids, it depends on whether the structure of the amino acid is the same in the powder as in the milk.
	Knowledge is Power