The Rose

I was wondering whether consuming fat along with protein and dextrose/maltodextrin after a post weight training session was detrimental to fat loss during a cutting phase. In other words, will the insulin just drive the fat into the fat cells?

Roses are a woman's best friend!

Robboe

More or less, yes.

The only fat you want to drive into fat cells is CLA, so it can get to work on the PPARs. There they inhibit the enzymes that direct the body to store fat. Basically.

That is of course, if you opt to use CLA. It can be quite dodgy stuff.

That's on one side of the coin at least. On the other it can be great.

Being held down by The Man

The Rose

What are CLAs and PPARs?

Roses are a woman's best friend!

Dr. Pain

CLA is Congated Linoleic Acid...in laypersons terms..a type of fat that animals use to produce more abundantly....

The main enzyme that TCD is referring to is called lipoprotein lipase......basically blocking lipogenesis (fat storage)

The Peroxisome Proliferator-Activated Receptor.... Upon binding fatty acids or hypolipidemic drugs, PPAR regulates the expression of target genes. These genes are involved in the catabolism of fatty acids. (lipolysis)

That all said, you can still achieve great results on a cut with the ingestion of fat post W/O and thereby controlling insulin levels.


DP

w8lifter

Shit.....there's information in that brain of yours that I haven't even tapped into yet

The Rose

I'm specifically referring to the more common dietary fats such as mono, poly, and saturated fats. What effects can they have post workout?

Roses are a woman's best friend!

Dr. Pain

Who says you haven't tapped it yet!


DP

LAM

the enzyme lipoprotein lipase is commonly refered to as the "gate keeper" of fat storage as it's stimulation has a great deal of control regarding the the amount of lipogenesis that occurs in adipose tissue .

Dumbest statement made in the Anabolic Zone for Nov

TBD

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What you talking about Willis ?

Robboe

"Conjugated"

True dat, but i wouldn't recommend taking in the fat with dextrose or malto like the dude asked. If he was to take in fat with carbs i'd say use a slower burning carb - one that illicits a smaller insulin response.

Quote from Rose:
No real benefits if you take them with dextrose or malto really.

Being held down by The Man

kuso

TCD....what exactly is "dodgy" about CLA?

Robboe

It can cause insulin resistance. (and yes, i have lots of studies if you so desire).

Lyle McDonald seems to think this is a good idea though for cutting, as it aids in spillover when refeeding and can boost leptin further. Go figure...

I'm not sure if i agree with him just yet. I think refeeds in generally can be beneficial (every week or so) but to do them twice a week or eveyr other day like some are currently doing is going OTT IMO.

Only problem with the insulin resistance is that when you go back to bulking it's harder to add muscle and easier to add fat.

So like i said earlier, on one side of the coin it's great, on the other is bad. Do you have any experience with CLA?

Being held down by The Man

kuso

None really......but have heard it is quite benificial when cutting so thought I`d do a little poking around.

The points you make are quite interesting.

Robboe

Oh, and it's generally recommended that you take the caps with carbs, or else the body may just metabolise the stuff like any other fat and you never really get the full benefits. If not with carbs then it's recommended that you take in double the dose (or something along those lines). I'm sure about the rpice of the stuff but i imagine that doubling the dose would mean it gets quite expensive.

Oh, Lyle also mentioned something about it taking longer to notice effects in humans. If in studies something happens to rats, Lyle says usually multiply the time it takes by three to get how long it'll take in humans. So i think that you need to take the stuff for about 2-3 months before you start noticing any considerable difference. I'm not entirely sure though.

Being held down by The Man

kuso

Thanks for that info

Do you have any links of studies, articles to any of Lyle`s comments about CLA that I could read through?

Dr. Pain

This is and always has been our suggestion for carb ingestion!

The ealier human studies (Tonalin), were quite promising at 3 grams per day (careful w/labeling, there is no CLA 1000) TCD is correct about the length of time involved, 12 weeks was used! There were 10 individuals in the group taking CLA and 10 in the control taking a placebo........CLA group lost 21% of their BF...not 21% BF....and the controls nothing...one in ten of both groups had to leave the study for gastro-intestinal distress.

An older six week study at the same dosage, men lost 1 1/2 inches in abdominal girth!

Subsequent to those, dosages in the 6.4 to 12.8 gram range were found to be even more effective...and as TCD says....gets quite expensive $$$

What kills me is for years, the nay-sayers have ignored those studies and mentioned only animal studies (saying human studies didn't exist!) Truth is, IT WORKS, has beneficial "side effects" especailly with breast cancer, and is a fat generally missing in today's diet as compared to the diet of 50-75 years ago!


DP

kuso

Do you have an further details or can you point me in the direction where I can find them?

Dr. Pain

TCD has quicker access to the studies, TCD, please also point me at one showing IR tendancies???



if you interested in Breast cancer, also check

CoQ10
Essiac (tm) or Florescence (Flora Inc) tea
Calcium d-glucarate
Vit C
MGM 3 (Lane Labs)
IP6 (inositol hexaphospate)


DP

kuso

Thanks

TCD..........puleeeeeease

Dr. Pain

Let's try:


http://www.mercola.com/beef/cla.htm

Very good read, and two pages of references!


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http://thyroid.about.com/library/weekly/aa011101a.htm

Similar plus added info!

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According to Dr. Menard, "Maintaining healthy glucose levels provides the first defense against a sequence of events which has been associated with type-2 diabetes in susceptible individuals. Dietary restriction, typically the first avenue of control, is rarely effective in gaining control of hyperglycemia and insulin resistance. The Purdue application is designed to address the metabolic conditions underlying the onset of this disorder and to reduce accompanying hyperglycemia and insulin resistance."

The Purdue University patent entitled, "Method and Compositions for Treating Diabetes," was developed based upon research into type-2 diabetes. According to the American Diabetes Association, diabetes is a condition affecting nearly 16 million people in the US alone. Ninety to ninety-five percent of diabetes is type-2, which is characterized by elevated plasma glucose levels and insulin resistance.

CLA is a naturally occurring fatty acid found primarily in milk, beef and dairy products. CLA is part of the omega-6 fatty acid family, however its mechanism of action mimics that of omega-3 fatty acids such as fish oil. Research to date suggests CLA may help maintain a healthy heart and veins, maintain healthy cholesterol and triglyceride levels, act as an anti-oxidant, and possess anti-antherogenic properties. Recent human study appears to indicate positive effects in helping to control plasma lipids, blood glucose and body weight when used in conjunction with diet and exercise.



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http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag99/apr99-report1.html




With references! Notice the TYPE 2 statement!

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And finally, TCD is this yours???? Seems like your style?


http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=65



I've read the Type 1 and 2 agurment several times......and I'm just as you say "interested",.... they don't, but almost contradict each other....as you say...Please Explain this to me!


BTW, CLA comes in 600mg to 780 mg (I believe someone has an 810) strength capsuled in a 1000 mg soft gel of either sunflower or safflower base. So it would take 4 plus to 6 caps to get 3.4 grams!

DP

Robboe

Ok, I'm gonna be honest. when i said i had lots of studies, for some reason i was thinking of the glucosamine references i have showing induction of insulin resistance. So i don't actually have lots. I have found one though, but i'm sure i had about three in total. I gotta keep looking. And i do know that there are mixed studies about CLA and insulin resistance/sensitivity. But i'm sure i recall most of the beneifical studies being done on obese people. Am i right?

I have however found some for you:

Increased insulin resistance:

Diabetes 2000 Sep;49(9):1534-42
Conjugated linoleic acid supplementation reduces adipose tissue by apoptosis and
develops lipodystrophy in mice.
Tsuboyama-Kasaoka N, Takahashi M, Tanemura K, Kim HJ, Tange T, Okuyama H, Kasai M, Ikemoto S, Ezaki O.
Division of Clinical Nutrition, National Institute of Health and Nutrition, Tokyo, Japan.

Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) is a naturally occurring group of dienoic derivatives of linoleic acid found in beef and dairy products. CLA has been reported to reduce body fat. To examine the mechanism(s) of CLA reduction of fat mass, female C57BL/6J mice were fed standard semipurified diets (10% fat of total energy) with or without CLA (1% wt/wt). Terminal deoxynucleotidyl transferase-mediated dUTP-biotin nick endlabeling (TUNEL) and DNA fragmentation analysis revealed that fat-mass decrease by CLA was mainly due to apoptosis. Tumor necrosis factor (TNF)-alpha and uncoupling protein (UCP)-2 mRNA levels increased 12- and 6-fold, respectively, in isolated adipocytes from CLA-fed mice compared with control mice. Because it is known that TNF-alpha induces apoptosis of adipocytes and upregulates UCP2 mRNA, a marked increase of TNF-alpha mRNA with an increase of UCP2 in adipocytes caused CLA-induced apoptosis. However, with a decrease of fat mass, CLA supplementation resulted in a state resembling lipoatrophic diabetes: ablation of brown adipose tissue, a marked reduction of white adipose tissue, marked hepatomegaly, and marked insulin resistance. CLA supplementation decreased blood leptin levels, but continuous leptin infusion reversed hyperinsulinemia, indicating that leptin depletion contributes to the development of insulin resistance. These results demonstrate that intake of CLA reduces adipose tissue by apoptosis and results in lipodystrophy, but hyperinsulinemia by CLA can be normalized by leptin administration.
PMID: 10969838


Please note the date on that study is 2000 and the date on your lef article is 1999.

Here's another that, while not directing stating insulin resistance occurs, does show higher insulin plasma levels:

Increase insulin levels:

J Am Coll Nutr 2000 Aug;19(4):487S-493S
Changes in body composition with conjugated linoleic acid.
DeLany JP, West DB.
Pennington Biomedical Research Center, Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70808, USA.
delanyjp@pbrc.edu

Conjugated linoleic acid has been shown to reduce body fat accumulation in several animal models. We have conducted several studies in AKR/J mice showing that CLA reduces body fat accumulation whether animals are fed a high-fat or low-fat diet, with no effect on food intake. One mechanism by which CLA reduces body fat is by increased energy expenditure, which is observed within one week of CLA feeding and is sustained for at least six weeks. The increased energy expenditure is sufficient to account for the decreased fat accumulation. Increased uncoupling protein gene expression does not appear to be involved in the increased energy expenditure. We have observed increased fat oxidation but no decrease in de novo fat biosynthesis with CLA feeding. We have also observed increased liver weights and plasma insulin levels with higher doses of CLA. In all of the studies we have conducted to date we have used a CLA preparation that contains several isomers, primarily c9,t11 and t10,c12. It was assumed that the active form was c9,t11, as CLA was identified as an anticarcinogenic compound from cooked beef, of which the c9,t11 form accounts for 60% to 80% of the CLA. Most of the studies conducted so far must be repeated using the purified isomers in order to determine which isomers are responsible for each of the identified actions of CLA.
Publication Types:
Review
Review, tutorial
PMID: 10963469

I also found the one showing that CLA induces lipid peroxidation:

TITLE: Conjugated linoleic acid induces lipid peroxidation in humans.
AUTHORS: Basu S; Smedman A; Vessby B
AUTHOR AFFILIATION: Section of Geriatrics/Clinical Nutrition Research, Faculty of Medicine, Uppsala University, Box 609, SE-751 25, Uppsala, Sweden. samar@basu@geriatrik.uu.se
SOURCE: FEBS Lett 2000 Feb 18;468(1):33-6
CITATION IDS: PMID: 10683436 UI: 20148605

ABSTRACT: Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) is shown to have chemoprotective properties in various experimental cancer models. CLA is easily oxidised and it has been suggested that an increased lipid oxidation may contribute to the antitumorigenic effects. This report investigates the urinary levels of 8-iso-PGF(2alpha), a major isoprostane and 15-keto-dihydro-PGF(2alpha), a major metabolite of PGF(2alpha), as indicators of non-enzymatic and enzymatic lipid peroxidation after dietary supplementation of CLA in healthy human subjects for 3 months. A significant increase of both 8-iso-PGF(2alpha) and 15-keto-dihydro-PGF(2alpha) in urine was observed after 3 months of daily CLA intake (4.2 g/day) as compared to the control group (P<0.0001). Conjugated linoleic acid had no effect on the serum alpha-tocopherol levels. However, gamma-tocopherol levels in the serum increased significantly (P=0. 015) in the CLA-treated group. Thus, CLA may induce both non-enzymatic and enzymatic lipid peroxidation in vivo. Further studies of the mechanism behind, and the possible consequences of, the increased lipid peroxidation after CLA supplementation are urgently needed.


And here's one showing that it helps cancer:

Toxicol Sci 1999 Dec;52(2 Suppl):107-10
Conjugated linoleic acid and the control of cancer and obesity.
Pariza MW, Park Y, Cook ME
Food Research Institute, Department of Food Microbiology and Toxicology,
University of Wisconsin-Madison, 53706-1187, USA. mwpariza@facstaff.wisc.edu

The effects of conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) in animals are reviewed. In most of the CLA preparations that have been investigated to date for biological activity, two CLA isomers are present in about equal concentrations: cis-9,trans-11 CLA, and trans-10,cis-12 CLA. The occurrence of these isomers in foods and their production by rumen microorganisms are discussed. Potential mechanisms of action as regards the effects of CLA on cancer and body composition are reviewed, including recent evidence that body composition changes are produced by the trans-10,cis-12 CLA isomer. Evidence is presented indicating that CLA may modulate cellular response to tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-alpha). The mechanistic implications of this finding are considered.
Publication Types:
Review
Review, tutorial
PMID: 10630598, UI: 20094294


I'm sure there are many more but these are all i had time to get my mitts on for now.


DP, yes that is my article. And i'm not entirely sure what you want me to explain? Can you be more clear please.

Oh, and that article was written in december and as far as the dosage part of it goes, i spent about 30 seconds checking an online retailer and found a 1000mg cap and so just used that. It wasn't something i was that concerned with. But thank you for the clarification.

Being held down by The Man

Dr. Pain

Gr8 work TCD, look at it this way.......I am working with you!

Not fond of mice studies however!

Don't worry about my question on your article, but you did ask me if I have experience with CLA....yes plenty. I have sold cases and cases..with very positive results! I cycle it into my own program....starting near 233 at 18% BF 40 months ago....and now, near 7% at 210 (and not cutting currently).....having not been over 8% in the last 36 months! (JP-7, Parrillo 9 site)


I thought you might be thinking about GS, as the research swings both ways on that also! Far as I'm concerned, we brought the information to the peolpe....CHEERS!


DP

Sub-Zero

So you WERE a fat-ass like me once ?? .....

Cold as ice !!

Dr. Pain

Your very funny!

No I was Strong and HUGE....kept the strength....lost the fat!


DP

LAM

Dumbest statement made in the Anabolic Zone for Nov

TBD

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What you talking about Willis ?

Dr. Pain