Built

Getting back to your earlier post, in your software, do your dieters increase or decrease their protein intake while cutting?

Biggly

If you're trying to keep things level then a hill is not level is it? Positively hilly in fact.

You's funs to play with!




B.

Biggly Bodybuilding Software "The sensation of hunger can often be alleviated and even mitigated entirely with the consumption of food.[citation needed]" Wiki

Built

Insulin is a storage hormone. It stores stuff.

You must surely also be aware that when you increase protein, blood glucose goes down, right? And insulin blunts cortisol. It's not all bad!

Because if it were, you'd be recommending we all eat nothing but fat! Fat stimulates almost NO insulin response. Mmmmm fat!

Now, back to dieters - using your software, do your dieters consume more protein when they cut, or when they bulk?

Biggly

As I said, it's adjustable. The ratio doesn't automatically change in the current version (that is slated for 2.3 though manual adjustment will still overide any auto-calculation) but it comes with a book. In the book I say.. lemme find it... here ya go:

"Bulking Basics
If you've already read the nutrition section, and you should have, you'll know that you need to eat a lot more protein than the talking heads on TV and women's magazines will tell you. A lot more.

When you increase your calories you shouldn't just increase overall portions without thinking though. It's best to maintain or slightly increase protein rather than raising it much higher than your usual already-high bodybuilding levels. Fat should be kept pretty low too, so the main thing you're going to be increasing over and beyond a good clean diet is carbs.

Carbs? Nooo!
But carbs are famous for making you fat. This is true, so restricting the bulk of them to early morning, pre and post workout, is a good idea. You should still avoid them before bedtime unless you only just worked out."

Yes I know, the bedtime thing is debatable. I mention that.


B.

Biggly Bodybuilding Software "The sensation of hunger can often be alleviated and even mitigated entirely with the consumption of food.[citation needed]" Wiki

Built

How about on a cut? This is bulking.

Built

And why would you want carbs throughout the day? All that elevated blood sugar and elevated insulin...

Why not protein and fat?

Biggly

Did you edit? I missed this bit:

Of course insulin blunts cortisol, it's an anabolic hormone, some bodybuilders inject the stuff. That's one of the major reasons for the SMALL meals combining protein and carbs together in every meal (rather than protein in the "main" meals). Carbs can push insulin levels up to 300, even 500% at high volume. Combine carbs and protein at the same time and you can hit 800%. Is that enough of a spike for ya?

But keeping the meal small you trigger a small amount of insulin, just enough to pack the nutrious goodies away without knocking yourself into a semi-diabetic coma, ie the sleepy stuffed feeling after a large meal. See "Christmas snoozing" for example.

A lot of people seem to think only carbs raise insulin, not so, add protein in the mix and it goes higher - hence most mass gain shakes combine both.

Insulin is just a hormone, it's not a good thing or a bad thing, you just need to control the timing and volume. Hence lots of small frequent meals combining protein and carbs, ie the standard bodybuilding eating habits.

You stuff yourself with large meals doing that and we'll need a crowbar to get you off the sofa. What you're doing it combining protein with high levels of fat and yes, that will work in its own way. However without the carbs where's the energy for workouts? You rely on fat for anaerobic weight training?


B.

Biggly Bodybuilding Software "The sensation of hunger can often be alleviated and even mitigated entirely with the consumption of food.[citation needed]" Wiki

Biggly

I said, you start with your minimal lean body mass requirements for protein, even if you're cutting. Cut other stuff, not protein.

That's the point, with lots of small frequent meals it's not elevated, it's pretty damn stable. Again see your own reference.

Because fat doesn't come with all the nutrients and goodies of veggies and fruit for a well-balanced diet. Artificial tabs can only go so far.


B.

Biggly Bodybuilding Software "The sensation of hunger can often be alleviated and even mitigated entirely with the consumption of food.[citation needed]" Wiki

Built

FAT doesn't have nutrients?

Tell me you're kidding.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Built

Small frequent meals with lots of carbohydrate and not much fat - why not do small frequent meals with low carbohydrate instead? That way instead of stable and elevated, you keep insulin stable and low?

Besides, fat is yummy!

Mmmm fat!

Biggly

Not the nutrients of fruits and veggies no. Nor is it a good energy source for workouts, though great for gentle jogging perhaps.

Yes you get fat soluble vits and obviously you need EFAs but doesn't mean to say you should favor fat over carbs.

Remind me again, are you following Atkins or something?

I think at this stage we're just butting heads for the fun of it, we both agree high protein and high fat, in comparison to the usual low fat high carb mainstream diet, is the way to go. We're differing on the details and degrees rather than the principles.


B.

Biggly Bodybuilding Software "The sensation of hunger can often be alleviated and even mitigated entirely with the consumption of food.[citation needed]" Wiki

Biggly

Your question:
I already answered that but here's your answer:

In little regular doses it does the body good, as they say. You know, cos it stores stuff? And why do you think blood glucose goes down? That's right, the blood-sugar reducing hormone spikes. You know, insulin?




B.

Biggly Bodybuilding Software "The sensation of hunger can often be alleviated and even mitigated entirely with the consumption of food.[citation needed]" Wiki

Built

Yes. It is astonishingly good at taking that harmful, high blood glucose and disposing of it.

As fat.

Ick.

That frog - is that your version of masturbating? Because you seem to do it a lot around me.

Hey, I'm just sayin'...

Just_Moe

You do not have to eat your first meal as soon as the cock crows. On a cut I have my coffee, my other stims and read the wild world of internet insanity. Then after my coffee has woken my up and my stims cause me to realize just what type of shit I am reading I wander to the kitchen for some protein...and...and...some fats. However, if I were able to handle carbs like a man, or not a former fat ass then I could add some carbs....but there is no need. Since all most do at this point in the day is jump in the shower and get ready to sit in your car for a commute to work where you have a desk job...or at the most bag Mrs. Phillips groceries, which again won't really call for a carb load now will it?

I think some BBers get so caught up in dogma and forget someone who wants to lose fat is NOT a bber....they could be a power lifter tho

So, to the OP, you do not need to eat your first meal when the alarm screams and the dog asks to go out...you can wait till you sit at the office desk and listen to your voice mails. You will not waste your biceps ( again only bbers are overly concerned with the SWOL of a bicep) because you did not add 1/4 oats to your protein shake. You will not look like a runway model by the time break time comes around and you have time to eat a meal. Even if a study DID show you lost amino's from your arm when you ate at 11 a.m. rather than 6:30 a.m. it would be an immeasurable amount to the human eye on a flex, I promise.

Biggly is this you?

cuz yer pretty.

nadirmg

w/o log
5'5" - currently bulking - 145lb on 5/16
weight goal I: 150 :: bench goal II:170 :: squat goal II: 250 :: weighted chin goal IV: +30 x 5 x 5

Biggly

No, cuz I's fugly.

Peeps kept telling me the software's great but the site looked like crap and I should jazz it up with pics of muscle n stuff, so I did. He's some model chap, with a lot more muscle and hair than me.

Built, make your mind up, you seem to be disagreeing with your own quote?

I do the bouncy thing cos you make me laugh and are fun to play with. Besides I jus can't resist that smiley...





B.

Biggly Bodybuilding Software "The sensation of hunger can often be alleviated and even mitigated entirely with the consumption of food.[citation needed]" Wiki

Built

What part isn't clear babe? I'll try to use small words.

Biggly

You said:

But what makes it go down? Insulin. Or are you referring to your overall diet, ie more protein in general rather than per meal? Either way the main thing that regulates blood sugar is insulin (along with glucagon etc). And yes, the presence, even of trace amounts, keeps cortisol away.

Your body is constantly in flux, feeding and growing your muscles, eating them for energy or simply maintaining them. Large meals will spike insulin, regardless of what you're eating, which means you will get some fat storage. Large gaps between meals will mean you'll release cortisol or other means of scavanging short-term energy. The idea is to find a happy balance where muscle damage is repaired and new tissue added from your workouts yet not so well fed that your body starts storing fat.

You can, to some extent, balance this just via calories. It's even easier though by providing the body with a constant stream of nutrients rather than just dumping those calories in occasionally and letting the body figure it out by itself. In that situation it responds in the short term, which is to shove most of the excess into fat storage.

Over the years most people have found combining carbs and protein together, in small frequent meals, is what seems to work best. For them.

For you it seems you'd rather have the full feeling from fats and if your genetics work with that then great. What I don't understand is how you seem to know this stuff yet push for a small number of high fat meals?

Carbs are not the enemy, they are simply the body's normal and most usuable energy source.



B.

Biggly Bodybuilding Software "The sensation of hunger can often be alleviated and even mitigated entirely with the consumption of food.[citation needed]" Wiki

Built

I don't think carbs are the enemy. I'm just not terribly comfortable when I eat starchy foods unless I'm training shortly afterward - or unless I've just lifted.

I like to stay comfortable. I'm funny that way.

Getting results while staying comfortable is all that matters to me.

Now, I'm perfectly happy to watch YOU eat your 6 micromeals at timed intervals through the day while doing boatloads of cardio. Really. Actually, the though of that rather makes me smile.

I'll be the one dipping her green beans in butter and dressing her salad with avocado and olive oil - while watching all the fat joggers working up their appetites.

So tell me, when you knock back that spoonful of coconut oil, do you tell yourself to try to enjoy it, or do you try to keep pleasure away from the food you eat?

Biggly

Actually I was looking forward to trying coconut oil but in truth it doesn't tase much of anything, just oily, with a hint of coconut. Somehow I was expecting something more intense.

Regarding food I originally grew fat simply because I don't overly like food.

Weird eh?

My job involved getting out in the car around 6am, travelling all over the place, finally heading home around 8pm (regional manager for a facilities company). Eating was just a damn pain and something to be done to shut my belly up so I could concentrate on work. Typically food would be grabbed from a service station or something ordered from a cafe on site.

I was always busy but never actually exercising per se.

In the end I switched from high paid career that was killing me (literally, chest pains etc) to a simple stress-free job as a warehouse clerk. I started eating "healthy" etc. Made no difference really, the fat wouldn't shift.

So I started working out, devouring everything I could read on the topic. Yes I built some muscle, not much, didn't really shift the fat. Then tried.... cardio!

That worked to some extent. Then tried fasted state cardio. That worked better. Then tried fasted state cardio with HITT. That worked.

Carb cycling worked well too, not without carbs but cycling them and as you say, mostly around training time.

I've tried so many different systems, purchased just about every ebook and printed book going. Some things work, some don't but the most important lesson I learnt from all of it is that there's a reason why some stuff does the job and other stuff is a waste of time.

Everybody is different and nothing works for ever.

The thing that really worked for me was getting strict on monitoring what did or didn't work for MY genetics, habits, preferences and lifestyle. Hence the software, polished up for other people.

I've tried high-fat, high protein and very low carbs. That works for about a week, then I gain fat. I've tried high carb and low fat. Yuk. Heck I've tried all sorts of stuff but at the end of the day I come back to that bodybuilding basic of small frequent meals of carbs and protein. It just works, for me and for a lot of other people. NOT everyone.

For my own story I emmigrated to Malaysia, on the island of Borneo. Today I live a simple stress-free happy little life, with an abundance of opportunity to work out etc. However I'm a lazy git and spend far too much time on discussion forums - so figured if I was gonna hang around online chatting I may as well do so here, if only to remind me I should be working out more myself

I'm not interested in arguing, winning, scoring points or anything of that nature. Did that for years on other forums; it just sucks up too much of my energy and time.

I firmly believe everyone should start with the basics we know work for most people, monitor themselves closely and tweak and tune from there to get their maximum results. There is no magical formula that works for everyone.

I don't care who says there is, there isn't.


B.

Biggly Bodybuilding Software "The sensation of hunger can often be alleviated and even mitigated entirely with the consumption of food.[citation needed]" Wiki

nadirmg

w/o log
5'5" - currently bulking - 145lb on 5/16
weight goal I: 150 :: bench goal II:170 :: squat goal II: 250 :: weighted chin goal IV: +30 x 5 x 5

VanessaNicole

It's well established that people who eat breakfast weigh less, on average, than people who don't.

No one has yet proven exactly why that is, as changes in metabolic rate are very minimal when you skip breakfast in the short term.

On the other hand you will probably eat a lot more later in the day. You are also less likely to feel good and have energy to support activity (which, along with a decent breakfast, will help a lot more than skipping meals).

The extent to which "weither or not you eat breakfast, your body will" is highly over blown and exaggerated. Especially if it's only short term. You would have to undereat by a large degree to see significant muscle loss over a short peroid of time. And it would have more to do with a subcaloric diet (gluconeogenesis) than skipping breakfast or low protein intake at breakfast time.

That said, I would not skip breakfast if I was trying to lose weight.

The more
The marble wastes,
The more the statue grows.

Michelangelo

Built

Interestingly, we are all more similar than different. And the right protocol works forever - because the right protocol includes sufficient variation to prevent adaptation. But I think that might be what you mean.
That's because you overate. If you eat more food than you need, you gain weight. I know, it's revolutionary…
Actually, I think it does, if it's calorie-controlled. It's just not COMFORTABLE for everyone. If you can stay uncomfortable and eat this way, and remain lean, you'll still be better off than you will if you're fat. That's why it works for so many people. They don't know there are different ways to achieve the same end, and this way, if uncomfortable, well, it DOES work, so they stoically plod along with their dry brown rice, poached chicken and un-buttered broccoli.

Sadly, for a lot of people, it is SO uncomfortable it can lead to much of the disordered thinking around food that is so prevalent in the industry.

Put it another way - I train very little, do almost no cardio, I was fat for about twenty years, and still, in middle age, I stay lean and vascular year round with no difficulty whatsoever.

You, who writes software professionally to help people adhere to your own dietary guidelines, admit that you are lazy and need to be reminded to work out more.

Why should you need to work out more? Doesn't your diet take care of you? Surely you only need a few hours a week in the gym, like I do.
Then why have you been doing it with me? I started our conversations politely - you immediately jumped down my throat after failing to do anything but scan a few words out of context in my post. Suggested I read the stickies as I recall.

That one gave me a pretty good chuckle.

Outside of pronounced health problems, what works for the worst case works for all.

And the basics are not complicated: eat enough protein and fat to satisfy essential needs, and sufficient calories to support your desired weight. Eat more than you need, you gain. Eat less than you need, you lose. Cardio is good for your heart (hence the name…), resistance training using progressive overload in natural movement patterns directs calorie traffic.
Find a way to feel comfortable while doing all this and you'll find your health.

The rest - high fat, low fat, high carb, low carb, intermittent fasting, non-stop mini-feeding… are the comfort-based tweaks we look for around these landmarks. Outside of personal preference, they are of no physiological relevance, so do whatever means you can live with your choices.

This, of course, is true of people who do not weigh and track their food, yes?
This is precisely what I do, yes. On purpose. I overeat at night. It's very premeditated. I feel more comfortable this way.
This is perfect for me, actually.

I don't have a lot of activity to support in the daytime. I sit at a desk. I train at night. This is all consistent with my l