nadirmg

according to merriam-webster...

"break·fast
Pronunciation:
\ˈbrek-fəst\
Function:
noun
Date:
15th century

1 : the first meal of the day especially when taken in the morning"

breakfast has been clearly defined. note that breakfast is not defined as the first meal of the deal between the hours of 6-9am. so we could infer that eating the first meal of any day at 10am, like built said, would actually be considered as 'breakfast'.

nobody said anything about missing breakfast.

w/o log
5'5" - currently bulking - 145lb on 5/16
weight goal I: 150 :: bench goal II:170 :: squat goal II: 250 :: weighted chin goal IV: +30 x 5 x 5

DaMayor

Ah, part one of the forgotten question! The insane stimulation of apetite soon after breakfast....but as usual, I digress.

I believe, as you have all stated in one form or another, that we are finding that the dietetic ideologies of the past are being re-thunk and re-defined. However, throughout this sort of dialogue (as in many other discussions between those who are in training and those who train others, et al) I have sensed that there is a "one size fits all" mentality in regards to all aspects...metabolism, insulin, macros....all of it.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, while I enjoy and for the most part understand what you are talking about, it might be more beneficial to those who haven't a clue if you were to offer more individualized models when making your collective points. IOW, make this stuff work for the average guy.

Biggly has hit on many points that we have been taught again and again up to this point, and Built has hit on some stuff that ocassionally leaves me scratching my head, lol. (salt fat salt fat salt) Although this is not to say either of you are wrong in any way.

Okay, I'm done babbling....carry on.

Just_Moe

no. the convo I believe is about eating later in the day...so let's say I can eat 6 meals at 500 cals a meal for a total of 3000 cals..so I will eat at say 7 am and then every 3 hours after that till 10 at night. right?
OR I can eat at say...9 and have 5 meals and break up my calories however I want in those meals.
It is calories in vs calories out, right? we ALL agree there ( one would hope) so why would it matter if I have it at 7 before my commute and eat at break say around 9 or 10 vs eating at 7 then drive to work and eat at break again?

Vanessa no one was saying SKIP a meal. Skipping meals taking that calorie amount out of the prescribed calories for the day...and I bet if I consider my breakfast as my first meal and I eat it at 10 during break vs before I leave the house I too would answer YES to the survey asking me if I eat breakfast.

Just_Moe

eat your prescribed amount of calories and macros when you need and or want to eat them. Skipping would be lowing the calories and you do not want to do that, do you?

Built

See, that's been my point all along. Traditionally, bb has been the domain of the genetically gifted, usually male and sometimes enhanced athlete. These people have exceptional insulin sensitivity, naturally low and evenly-distributed adiposity, and continue to be destined to become the champions of the stage. These people do very well on lowfat, higher carb diets. Their bodies tolerate more cardio, they likely have higher natural levels of androgen. They're healthy, symmetric, and must therefore be hunted down and shot like the rabid dogs… but I digress.

For the average guy (or gal) - not so gifted, not so spectacular, uneven fat distribution, perhaps insulin resistant because of excess adiposity, poor nutritional habits, etc - well, some of us TRIED these conventional nuggets of One True Way ideology - only to find we couldn't stick to the protocol because it was so damned uncomfortable!

That's why I've been delighted to learn that the most important guidelines for us "ordinary shmoes" are far looser than I had been led to believe.

The Basics
"Dose" protein at no less than a gram per pound LBM
Dose fat at no less than half a gram per pound LBM
Consume at least 25g of fibre a day from food (ie not supplements)
Fill the rest of your calories to suit your comfort.
Perform free, multi-joint lifts in natural movement patterns under progressive overload several times a week
Go for walkies a few times a week

The rest - "pre and post workout nutrition, fasted/fed cardio, HIIT vs SS, 6 meals vs 3, XYZ supplements..." well, that's where you can look at the old school standards and choose the parts that happen to suit you. Once you have the basics down, you've covered about 80% of it. You can spend the rest of your life fiddling with the remaining 20% - which by the way may very well change for you over time, so don't get too attached…

Peace.

DaMayor

Gotcha.

From the first time I found this web site until now, my own physiology, psychology (lol) and everything else has gone through a minimum of three different "phases".
Much of what I read four years ago doesn't even remotely apply to my present situation, simply due to lifestyle changes, training or lack of training, diet, poor diet, worse diet of my life (low salt though) etc.
Therefore, I have found that is good to establish a solid baseline from which to start.

VanessaNicole

I'm not disagreeing with you. As I said, the issue of loss of muscle tissue due to not eating breakfast is totally overestimated. I completely agree.

However, those of you who feel best without eating breakfast are the exception to the rule.

I do not dispute that skipping breakfast for you might work. But it probably won't for most people.

I am well aware that hunger impulses will go away within a few hours if ignored. But a vast majority of people will have a much lower probability of controlling their appetites and making sound food choices once it returns later in the day.

However, there are always exceptions to every rule. I don't doubt that you are such an exception.

The more
The marble wastes,
The more the statue grows.

Michelangelo

VanessaNicole

Oh, I thought this was a discussion about why or why not to eat breakfast.

The more
The marble wastes,
The more the statue grows.

Michelangelo

Biggly

If you experience hunger pangs that then go away, what happened?

Something changed.

But let's back up a bit, something changed for hunger pangs to occur in the first place.

What changes? Rather than going into the appetite center of the brain and getting so technical that we have to start checking spelling (hypothalamus for example) what regulates hunger comes down to hormones n stuff.

Your body was so low on food that hormones were released to trigger hunger pangs. That means your body is already reacting to a lack of food and blood sugar. Leave that reaction long enough and the hunger pangs go away.

What makes hunger pangs go away? Well when you eat it's stuff like peripheral hormone peptide but if you're not eating how is that triggered? What creates that shorter term shift between "need food" and "OK, got some food" when there was no intake of food?

It seems somewhat reasonable to conclude that the body did indeed get some food from somewhere.

In an ideal and optimistic world it did nothing else except draw on your fat reserves. That's not the case though, as your body is constanly thirsty for protein, which is used from everything from your skin, fingernails, hair, internal organs, just about everything really. We know stored bodyfat cannot produce complete protein - so while you may have raw energy, enough to satisfy hunger in the short term, where's the protein?

Likewise we know the body cannot store proteins for more than a few hours, so a large meal the night before doesn't cut it where protein is concerned.

Bottom line we have a protein and energy deficiency which the body responds to by releasing hormones, part of which creates hunger. If no food it continues the process and basically eats itself. As it needs protein it will eat the "spare" protein of muscle tissue.

Is this effect so serious you'll lose all your muscles by not eating brekkie? No.

What it IS likely to do is slam the brakes on anything along the lines of actually building muscle and repairing the minor damage of working out.

Thus from a bodybuilding point of view, if not a slimming one, most bodybuilders have long agreed with the "breakfast is the most important meal of the day" and many take the attitude that if you experience hunger pangs you'll already gone too long without food. To ignore the hunger pangs until they go away may work for slimming but sucks for muscle growth.

This is the wisdom of bodybuilders through the ages and across the planet.

Maybe they're all wrong. Whatever.

Regarding the skipping thing, the OP himself used the skip word.



B.

Biggly Bodybuilding Software "The sensation of hunger can often be alleviated and even mitigated entirely with the consumption of food.[citation needed]" Wiki

Built

I don't ignore hunger pangs!

I put off "peckish", but that's it. If I navigate around "peckish", I can completely avoid truly feeling hungry even deep into a cut.

If I eat carbs in the AM, I either fight hunger pangs all day, or simply overeat and call it a cheat day. Honestly, because I know this, I only ever do this on purpose, on cheat days.

If I eat a 7AM, I'm just as hungry at 10AM as I would have been had I blown off breakfast.

And I know a LOT of people who say they aren't hungry UNTIL they start eating for the day.

Now, if you aren't one of 'em, go right ahead and eat your egg white omelette and oatmeal.

But if you are, go right ahead and skip it. It won't make any difference - as long as you feed the workout window and hit your macros for the day.

Biggly

My emphasis.

So lemme get this straight, you're willpower is so low that you fight, fight dammit, fight to the very...peckish?

Yeah I know, you're all about the comfort.



OK, so we conclude then that skipping brekkie is fine, providing you don't skip the calories and protein and stuff yourself the night before and eat the moment you get peckish? No hang on, the moment peckish becomes hunger?

Is that about right?



B.

Biggly Bodybuilding Software "The sensation of hunger can often be alleviated and even mitigated entirely with the consumption of food.[citation needed]" Wiki

Built

It's not difficult - I wake up and I COULD eat, but it isn't pressing.

Put it this way: going to bed hungry would be HARD. Waiting a few hours in the AM before I get in my pre-packed breakfast while reading my email at my desk is comfortable.

And yep, I'm all about being comfortable. This of course means I'm a bad person.

'Sokay. Once you know this about yourself, you can truly enjoy it, yanno?

So Biggly - this thread is pretty much spent so I'll contaminate it further (see above reference to my being a bad person LOL!) but did you say you're in Borneo? This actually sounds like a very cool thing that you've done. How did you pick Borneo to move to - you're English originally, right?

Built

PS you are 100% correct about my willpower. I have almost none. And my laziness is legendary.

That's why I had to struggle so hard to get this far. Seriously!

VanessaNicole

Biggie, I think there are a few aspects of the nature of the human organism (also most animals) of which you are too unaware to make assumptions about what must be going on.

Humans and many animals eat (or at least try) at relatively predictable times. When you normally eat is when you will normally experience hunger. This is primarily a function of the parasympathetic nervous system (which is sometimes called the "feed or breed" response).

Remember Pavlov's dogs? Plenty of stimulus can cause hunger and other physiological feeding behaviors. In fact internal drives are actually not even as powerful as external ques unless you are at the point of starvation or close to it.

If you ignore the habit or impulse to eat then a few factors (notably reduced blood sugar) will together stimulate the parasympathetic nervous system and result in more of a "fight or fight" condition. In this condition a person or animal is better able to hunt or search for food.

This also supresses hunger.

There may also be a touch of what some scientists have called "the infinite mercy of mother nature". It's a phenomenon by which human suffering which cannot be avoided (i.e. famine/hunger) is eventually dulled to the animal experiencing it. You can witness this also in accounts of life threatening animal attacks, for example, where many victims have little or no recall of pain associated with the event.

I have no doubt that Built probably doesn't feel any real hunger until she usually eats.

If she ate breakfast every morning growing up she's most certainly feel them when she switched over to this eating schedule. Of course she would have adapted in short order.

What you say about ones body being in "constant thirst for protein" is just plain silly.

The more
The marble wastes,
The more the statue grows.

Michelangelo

Biggly

Well I know Built doesn't like Tom Venturo's techniques so I'll quote him :

Sorry for the formatting.

Met a beautiful Asian lady studying for her phd. She was already working as a uni lecturer but her uni wanted her to go to phd level and paid for her to go to the UK. She'd also spent a few years in the US. Friendship turned serious and when she said she wanted to take me home with her I agreed and have been very happily married about 3 years now. Borneo itself is indeed awesome




B.

Biggly Bodybuilding Software "The sensation of hunger can often be alleviated and even mitigated entirely with the consumption of food.[citation needed]" Wiki