Built

I could not agree more on the ww front. But then, they don’t ensure adequate protein and fat.
I did the ratio thing for a long time and it really didn't help me understand what was going on (much less successfully diet and keep the weight off like I have these last seven years), but once I read about the LBM-targeted "dosings" paradigm, the whole picture just jumped right out at me. SO MUCH EASIER - and a LOT more flexible!

Listen, try this sometime. Humour me. Pop into fitday or whatever plan you use, and set up a day for yourself or anybody with the guidelines I offered. Set it up at a small deficit, say 15% below maintenance.

Set for this imaginary client amounts that total up to whatever this calorie level is, but with at LEAST the protein and fat minimums (I strongly recommend 10g of fish oil, but I'll leave this to your discretion), at least 25g of fibre, and you can't use fibre supps for it - it HAS to come from food.

No matter what you come up with, you are almost certain to be more than adequately nourished. And from this baseline, it's very easy to fiddle with increases in protein and or fat to come up with a comfortable diet. For example, many overweight people, particularly women, would NOT do well on 30% or 40% of their diet coming from carbs. This way, they don't have to.

Built

Ah, sorry. My bad.

I get all newbies to estimate their own lean mass the way I described. The beauty of the approach is they usually set far too modest goals for themselves, so they slightly overestimate their lean mass - and they eat more protein because of it. It's all good.

Jodi

I haven't used fitday in a long time. I actually don't count anymore. I eat what I know is healthy. If I'm not hungry I will skip a meal. I probably eat 4 times a day now. I have been down the road of ratios years ago just to be healthy. Then decided to compete and when I did that I became addicted and so I cut more and more and more. Totally screwed up my body from the constant dieting...thyroid, adrenals, digestion etc. Lots of fun, let me tell ya lol. I've been the excessive compulsive dieter and it nearly killed me (figuratively of course).

I know exactly where you are coming from and exactly how you figure it out and I DO agree (especially with the obese on lots of carbs). Very much so. I just still find it too complicated for a newbie because of the inaccurate LBM testing. I also find telling a person they can only have THIS number of G of carbs is a setup for failure. Most people that are trying to lose weight are not comfortable when you say THIS is it and you can't adjust where a ratio it gives a little more freedom to adjust on how they feel.

Women losing energy with lack of carbs - lower the fat add more carbs.. etc.....they may not lose as much as fast but there will still be progress.

Essence EFA

danzik17

Sweet jesus Jodi is back.

Let the female nutrition expert battle begin (with possible mud wrestling? )

Anyway so where have you been?

Ron Paul 2008

Journal: Boom goes the dynamite

Built

Jodi, I know it has long been done this way. But I have a whole board full of women who have converted, and they love how much clearer the process is for them, how much more control it gives them over their actual intake AND their comfort

Now, I know, I know, it's change, change is bad because it's change… <c'mon, drink the kool aid, drink the kool aid…>

I'm delighted you can do this by feel - especially from what you have overcome. I am SO sorry you went through this. It sounds GHASTLY.

I can almost maintain by feel, but I gain, slowly. I do this from time to time, to test it, but I know how to get it back under control when I've slowly gained the 5-10 lbs. I was fat for twenty years and if I don't track and preplan, I can't maintain my weight. Lots of us former-fatties are like this. The damned fat cells are all like "Feed me, Seymour… ". Bastards.

Oh, and for what it's worth - when I was at the end of my rope, jogging 10k 3x a week on my low-fat ratio diet, the ONLY thing that worked for me was "you can only have this many g of carb". Atkins diet gave me my life back. It got me from obese to normal weight without hunger. I got off Metormin and avoided lipitor. It just didn't get me down to ripped. So I kept reading…

Jodi

Hey there!

No battle. I believe we agree on the same thing just different approaches. This is a good discussion!

I've been away because I've been extremely busy, but good. How are you?

Essence EFA

danzik17

Pretty good. Finally graduated and got a job, so now my schedule is normal enough where I can consistently hit the gym and have a decent diet.

Making more gains in the gym than I ever have thanks to a program that Gazhole and goob have been using, seems like I'm just consistently adding more and more weight to my lifts every time I go.

Other than that I'm working on a couple of small side projects (one of which you may be interested in helping out with!)

Ron Paul 2008

Journal: Boom goes the dynamite

Jodi

No need to be sorry, it was a lesson well learned! My goal is to no longer be ripped but be healthy which took some time to achieve after my screw up and I don't plan on doing anything different now. So each of us having different goals is what makes us try different approaches.

I too was a chubster at one point and it was actually the ratios (lol) that got me to where I wanted to be. Then my goals changed and I tried different approaches to achieve the next level of leanness. We have to do and try new things or it becomes stale and old and monotonous.

I've been lucky to FINALLY find that happy medium and to finally be where I want to be. Its not not having to plan out meals and packing tons of food everyday. Granted if I was trying to lose weight I would do this but I'm not.

Essence EFA

Built

Oh hey, I didn't say it wasn't possible to get your diet working with ratios - clearly, it is. Lots of people do it. But this is how I look at it - lots of things turn out to produce the right results, but for the wrong reasons.

I'm an old woman with various metabolic problems and a desire for simplicity. Please believe me that the moment someone comes up with something simpler than what I propose that works, I'll happily toss aside everything I've written.

While I'm putting in requests, I'd like it to work while eating nothing but donuts. If it's not too much trouble.

<I freaking LOVE donuts. God's perfect food - just as long as they're not Krispy Kreme>

Jodi

Your donuts is my beer

Essence EFA

Built

Mmmm, the beer and pizza diet.

I can see the headlines now:

"Two TITANS (you like that? Titans! Makes us seem important!) of the fitness industry join forces to bring you what the world has been waiting for: the donuts and beer diet-diet-diet-diet...!"

Biggly

120g protein - 480c
60g fat - 540c
= 1020

To reach 2000 means around 250 grams of carbs, ie around 50% of calore intake would be carbohydrates. For bulking or even maintenance that's fine, for cutting not so good.

Anyway, point is, 480, call it 500, IS a ratio of 25% of daily calories if calories are 2000.

So the ratio described here is around 25/25/50

All you've done is make the carb figure variable, saying it doesn't matter if its 25/30/45 or 30/30/30 or anything as long as you get the 25/25 bit.

Seems to me that's still using ratios, just throwing carbs to chance. However for most people carbs are the No1 thing that affects their weight - and as both Built and Jodi have pointed out, track over time and tune the result, meaning there IS going to be a difference between 25/25/50 and 30/30/30 or whatever.

Also if you say "eat at least 25g of protein" people will take that as "well 20g is OK.."

A ratio is as much about not eating too much of any one food group as it is about eating enough of the others.

Which is more important, protein or calories? Arguably they are as important as each other, because you DO need a minimum of protein and you DO need to restrict your calories (or bump them up or whatever, point is there is a limit).


B.

Biggly Bodybuilding Software "The sensation of hunger can often be alleviated and even mitigated entirely with the consumption of food.[citation needed]" Wiki

Built

Not a problem for cutting or bulking. You can get ripped to shreds on sugar. You can get morbidly obese on "clean eats".
Yep. That's the beauty of math. If it's a number, you can toss it into an equation.

Doesn't mean it's meaningful.

Trust me, I have two math-based degrees, and I've marked calculus exams. I've seen plenty of meaningless calculations!
For all people, calorie balace is the only thing that affects their weight.

Short of amputation.
Only if they don't understand English.

Seriously, if you want to calculate your intake as a proportion of your IQ, you go for it.

[/quote]

A ratio is as much about not eating too much of any one food group as it is about eating enough of the others.

Which is more important, protein or calories? [/quote]
No brainer: calories.
[/quote]Arguably they are as important as each other, because you DO need a minimum of protein and you DO need to restrict your calories (or bump them up or whatever, point is there is a limit).


B.[/quote]
Yes. You need a minimum of protein. Not a minimum PERCENTAGE of protein.

Biggly

But it IS a percentage if your calorie intake is limited, which it is.

Give that a try some time?

So your donut diet would work then? You don't really need protein, it's kindda optional, as long as you get the calories? We both know that's not the case, you do need your protein, you do need to restrict your calories so protein DOES need to be a certain percentage of your diet.

You can call it a ratio, a percentage, your macro balance or whatever but it's the same thing.

You can't say you need X amount of protein, Y amount of fats and Z amount of carbs while restricting the total calories to some figure - but ratios don't matter.

That IS a ratio.


Ok let me make this very simple - if you need 22.5 grams of protein (90 calories) and your calorie limit, for silly example only, is 100, then by definition 90% of your calories must be protein.

If you're not restricted by total calories then sure, to hell with ratios but if you are and you indee ARE, then whatever you eat will be a ratio.

Now you can either eat whatever you like and then count the calories and work out the ratio later, just for giggles - or you can set the calories and ratios as a goal.

Simply saying "X amount of calories" doesn't cut it if all your calories come from donuts.

To use an old fashioned expression, you need a "balanced" diet and it's not 50/50 because you need fats, carbs, protein and fiber. Fiber is not so much an issue as long as you get enough but the other 3 contain calories - you have a calorie limit so there has to be a balance.

You know, like a ratio?



B.

Biggly Bodybuilding Software "The sensation of hunger can often be alleviated and even mitigated entirely with the consumption of food.[citation needed]" Wiki

Built

Honey, I GET ratios. I can calculate them.

It's just that they are at best an indirect measure of what is going on.

You can take the sugar argument up with Lyle McDonald. I became obese eating clean.

I'll leave you with this: a recipe for my favourite cake.

White cake with walnut icing
Total calories: 5729
14% from butter
14% from sugar
16% from flour
1% from eggs
0% from Baking powder
2% from skim milk

Directions
Beat the butter and sugar with the eggs until fluffy.
In another bown, combine flour and baking powder. I'll be sporting and tell you it's a level tablespoon.

Dump the flour mixture into the butter-sugar-eggs and add the milk all at once. Stir until just mixed, then bake in an oblong pan for 20 minutes at 350 degrees.

Meanwhile, make the icing.
Ingredients:
1% from Vanilla extract
14% from brown sugar
8% from Icing sugar
14% from walnuts
9% from butter
7% from whipping cream

Nuke the butter, whipping cream and brown sugar until bubbly. Add the vanilla and beat in the icing sugar. Add chopped walnuts and pour over still-warm cake.

VanessaNicole

I completely agree.

Any way, highly regimented or complicated programs are statistically less successful over long periods of time.

The more
The marble wastes,
The more the statue grows.

Michelangelo

Built

Agreed.

That's why I like a "feedbag" approach:

Preplan a day with the right calories and with protein, fat and fibre minimums hit or exceeded.

That's it. Eat whatever you want whenever you want it.

When it's gone, it's gone. Completely brainless.

danzik17

Pfft, some of us actually enjoy the plain chicken diet

Easy to plan and cook, nothing ridiculous. Throw some mustard on and we have a meal.

I do make sure to take a high quality multi-vit though, and this diet is only until September when I will rotate back to more fruit/carbs for the winter bulk.

Ron Paul 2008

Journal: Boom goes the dynamite

FitChickett

Im a newbe too (to forums) and you just made my day! The amount of people who STILL believe fat is bad for you tell me constantly that Im mad and slowly killing myself. Its SO nice seeing that Im not alone!!!

Jodi

That is awesome! I'm so happy for you. Glad to see you are still here and reading. Gazhole and Goob are great resources for training. Its great to see you are making gains.

I may not always be around but if you ever have any question or want to chat about something I think you know how to reach me. If not PM me and I'll give you the info.

Again. Congrat! Good Job!

Essence EFA

Built

You're most certainly not alone. Particularly for women, leaning on fats and away from carbs just makes a LOT more sense: we're so much more insulin-resistant than men. Fat-and-protein meals are satiating. I eat my cottage cheese, avocado and eggs for breakfast and I feel fed until the afternoon! A lowfat bagel and scrambled egg whites and I'm chewing my ARM off within an hour!

B-Cubed

All I track any longer are grams of protein. Almost everything else is fat. I'm almost never hungry. Really, the only time I get hungry is when I've been too long without eating. Dump some protein and fat on it and it's gone. Carbs? What are carbs?

Let me tell you, ratios and lbm dosing are VERY VERY different.

LBM dosing says you need this much protein and this much fat...minimum. It doesn't say from where the rest of your calories need to come. It can be more protein, more fat, or carbs...if you like. But it doesn't HAVE TO come from any particular place. You eat to make yourself COMFORTABLE.


Ratio dosing says that you MUST get a certain percentage of your total calories from protein, fat, and carbs.

Let compare these two approaches with ME as an example. I'm 148 lbs and I have about 115 lbs of LBM. In reality I may have a little more or a little less, but for our purposes, a lb or two won't make much of a difference.

I know from lots of calorie tracking that my maintenance calories are around 2000 calories per day. Let's suppose I cut only 10% of my calories per day. That makes 1800 calories a day to cut.

Percentages: 30% fat, 30% carbs, 40% protein is a fairly common recommendation. So, 60 grams fat, 135 g carbs, and 180 grams protein. This SEEMS reasonable. But I can tell you, from experience, that 60 grams of fat a day would leave me wanting to chew my arm off. If I don't get 80-120 grams of fat a day, I feel like I've been on a ship lost at sea without food for 30 days and I'm considering eating my shipmates. It makes me 'effing crazy. No joke.

Targeted to LBM: 57.5 grams fat minimum, 115 grams of protein minimum; the rest is left up to me. Well, this is less fat and protein than required by the percentages method. But the important thing to note is that these are MINIMUMS. I can eat more fat or protein if I so desire. These minimums total 997.5 calories. That leaves me 802.5 calories to spend AS I PLEASE. I can spend them on fat, protein, or carbs, without restriction. I don't even f**k with worrying about fiber. I've never had a digestive problem as long as I've gotten enough fat. But I've been on a 30/30/40 getting 30 grams of fiber a day and been stopped the 'eff up. I NEED lots of fat to not feel hungry, so I spend my calories there primarily. Someone else who needs more carbs than I do, can spend them there. Someone who wants more protein, can eat more protein if they want. That is A LOT of flexibility. It can be COMPLETELY individualized without changing ANYTHING.

Try and tell me percentages are still just as easy. Tell me to get 35% from fat and 25% from carbs instead of 30/30. F**K YOU! 70 grams of fat is not enough! Tell me to get 40% from fat and that BARELY does it at 80 grams of fat for the day. (I usually get 100 grams or more a day). And what have we learned from this? That a recommendation based on percentages of fat/carbs/protein needs to change to suit the particular individual. That's right, it CANNOT be applied universally. Any recommendation based on percentages HAS to be adjusted WRT goals, metabolism, IR, etc...

One method is simple, and works for EVERYBODY, is easy to calculate, and works regardless of goals. The other needs to be adjusted on a case by case basis. All one method requires is counting. In the other, the user needs to use basic Algebra. Take it from a math Professor, this means that MOST people can't do it.

Tell me again how these methods are the same/equivalent/equally as good?