AKIRA

For some reason, I really, really cant grasp this..

If the body is in a fat burning zone per se while you sleep, why is there talk about the body feeding off your muscles for energy if theres no protein ingested before you go to bed?


Oh my god, this is driving me nuts!

Even the basics of it arent getting through to me. Why would the body feed off muscle for energy at ANY time vs. bodyfat? I was really sure that the body uses carbs, fat, then protein for energy, in that order. Now, those are macros vs. what the body is actually made up of, but still, I dont understand why the body does this.

6' 209lbs (8/16)
Bench 365 (12/3)
Weighted Pullups 80lbs 3x3 (3/19)
Squat 370
Deadlift after herniation 385lbs 3x3 (3/17)
NASM certified 2/06
Journal

fufu

Ok, when I read this question yesterday it really bothered me because I felt I knew the answer. I couldn't come up with anything though.

I had to think about it for a bit, this is what I got -

Fat is stored as a survival mechanism, muscle isn't.

When you lift weights and eat excessively you put the body in a strange situation. You don't need extra muscle to survive and you generally only use the muscle you've gained in the gym to lift more. It isn't a necessity outside of that, really(depending on what you do).

So, the body in a way is in constant fluctuation with maintaing muscle mass. If you stop applying resistance through training and eating you lose it.

Fat storage on the other hand has been a biologic function of the body for thousands of years. The body stores fat in apidose tissue to offer nutrients to survive. Ancient man didn't lift weights for lifestyle benifits. Their level of muscle mass was relative to the actions of their survival.

So with that logic, the body has a reason to hold onto fat. That reason was solidified through thousands of years of environmental factors. When you program your lifestlye to lose fat you are tricking your body into thinking that your body doesn't need the fat and it must expend the energy in it to function efficiently(surviving).

Through dieting and training you are constantly manipulating the body to get it to do what you want.

Keep in mind that all metabolic processes in the body are always going functioning, they never stop completely. That is where energy balance through caloric intake comes in. Things are always going up and going down. The closest to an "off" is when you reach a steady state level. Maintenece caloric level for example. However, you aren't exactly reaching energy goals, hence the slight up and down. Or a more extreme up and down depending on what you are doing. The use of energy through carbs, fats and proteins are always occuring, just at different levels. Eating before bed can help change these levels and offer replacement nutrients for what is expended.

Modern man has a much different path of survival. We change our bodies by tricking it into functioning in pathways that it developed for survival, but today it isn't about survival. That is why things get confusing. Our use of technology has really taken us out of synch of how our bodies evolved to function, that is why common sense doesn't work well sometimes when understanding the body. The factors affecting our bodies are way different today than 1000 years ago. The body can't really evolve to keep up with our change in lifestyles quick enough. With technology 'progressing' even further the body's functions could become obselete in a sense.

Well, that is why the body doesn't just strip fat during sleep and spare muscle at the same time.

If you were wondering the specific energy pathways behind it, I'm not to sharp on those details currently. But what I wrote is the general idea behind why the body functions the way it does.

fufu's 1337 Journal

Your diet will set you free.

AKIRA

I think I might be getting it...

Protein ingested before bed is to help rebuild the muscle I broke down in the gym during that day.. If I didnt go to the gym and ingested protein, that protein would be stored as fat...

I guess what wasnt covered was why the body uses fat for energy during sleep? If that statement is correct, why is muscle at risk?

Heh, I guess your response helped explained the 2nd part of my topic question.

6' 209lbs (8/16)
Bench 365 (12/3)
Weighted Pullups 80lbs 3x3 (3/19)
Squat 370
Deadlift after herniation 385lbs 3x3 (3/17)
NASM certified 2/06
Journal

fufu

Well like I said the body uses fat as an energy source all the time, just at different levels. If you are in a caloric deficit, the body needs to supplement with extra calories else where, hence fat being oxidized to meet metabolic needs.

When the body sleeps, in is in recovery mode.

fufu's 1337 Journal

Your diet will set you free.

Witchblade

Your body will mostly use fat for energy at night, but energy demands are very low.
If you don't give your body a reason to hold onto your muscle, it will ditch it.
Weight change is dependend on caloric intake primarily, say 90%.

I don't think I'm completely sure what your main question is.

While we're on the subject, I'm a huge proponent of pre-bed meals. Since the timing of your meals won't affect weight gain, why not take a good protein, fiber and fat rich meal right before bed when your body is going into recovery mode? What better time to give your body everything it needs to recover?

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AKIRA

This makes sense, but my confusion is if the body has food in its stomach, say casein protein, then it could use THOSE protein's calories to recover in a "low energy demanding" time. So ok, your muscle is spared, but I would think, so is the stored body fat.

This is my confusion...

Lets say your stomach is empty when you fall asleep...

Your body says: ok we need to get some energy from somewhere so this fucker doesnt die in his sleep...

They go to get some energy from storage, theres a crossroad. One is muscle, the other is fat.

If the body doesnt need muscle, it will use that for energy. Ok, if thats that, then this discussion can be put to bed (no pun intended). However, this is a "fat burning time" or so.... This, THIS is what doesnt make sense.

6' 209lbs (8/16)
Bench 365 (12/3)
Weighted Pullups 80lbs 3x3 (3/19)
Squat 370
Deadlift after herniation 385lbs 3x3 (3/17)
NASM certified 2/06
Journal

lucifuge

if I'm remembering correctly , on an empty stomach the body will turn to muscle protein before fat stores simply because of the inherent 'survival programming'. However, if you have food in your stomach, the body will naturally digest and burn that fuel before cannibalizing any existing tissues.
Having a slow digesting protein source before bed is ideal because protein is the most metabolically expensive nutrient/macro. It takes more energy to digest protein than fat or carbohydrates.
So, at least in theory (and correct me if I'm wrong here folks) the food being digested provides the calories for maintaining body function and the fat stores will provide the energy for the digestion of the food...

AKIRA

If this is true, my confusion has been dissipated!

6' 209lbs (8/16)
Bench 365 (12/3)
Weighted Pullups 80lbs 3x3 (3/19)
Squat 370
Deadlift after herniation 385lbs 3x3 (3/17)
NASM certified 2/06
Journal

fufu

God damn it AKIRA I wish I could explain this in person.

fufu's 1337 Journal

Your diet will set you free.

Uthinkso

Ok newb hanger on here. I'm in a habit of taking in protein before I go to bed most every night. Here I see in AKIRA's second post that he does that on training days to help repair the muscle he tore down earlier. On non training days, he doesn't because the protein would be stored as fat.

Is this true? Man I've had the blinders on for over a year if this is the case.

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Witchblade

Your body doesn't (significantly) use fat to fuel the digestion of nutrients. The amount of calories used to digest carbs, protein and fat is very small. The thermogenic effect of protein is vastly overrated. Only vegetables like broccoli actually have a noteable thermogenic effect. Among other things because of the cellulose and fiber.

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AKIRA

Oooh Another myth buster!

Good stuff.

In any case, are my questions confusing?

6' 209lbs (8/16)
Bench 365 (12/3)
Weighted Pullups 80lbs 3x3 (3/19)
Squat 370
Deadlift after herniation 385lbs 3x3 (3/17)
NASM certified 2/06
Journal

lucifuge

I don't think the question is confusing, but trying to answer it in a coherent way sure seems to be...

AKIRA

I sympathize. I wanted it to be explained in a simple form cuz thats the only way newbies would be able to understand when they ask me these questions.

For instance, I have been explaining movements vs. bodypart training to my girl for a while now and 2 days ago I told her I havent done a strict arm day in a long time. She found it hard to believe.

6' 209lbs (8/16)
Bench 365 (12/3)
Weighted Pullups 80lbs 3x3 (3/19)
Squat 370
Deadlift after herniation 385lbs 3x3 (3/17)
NASM certified 2/06
Journal

lucifuge

hahaha...
I feel ya, people look at me like I'm insane when I tell them I don't believe in an arm day.

Built

I don't think I've done bicep curls more than five times in the last YEAR.

lucifuge

I'll do direct arm work, butI see no sense in a whole training session devoted to arms.
every now and then just for some fun maybe....

Built

After a carb load, it's fun as hell to see that cosmetic pump, I gotta admit!

lucifuge

a little ego boost is good sometimes,
but then you see the douchebags doing curl after curl in front of the mirror for an hour and you wanna throw a dumbell at them.... there's always a trade off

Built, you wanna weigh in on AKIRA's question?

BulkMeUp

So what Bi work do you do, currently? Asking with ref to BGB which I'm on week7. Good stuff!

Stewart20

i know this is continuing the off topic slant, but I haven't done a curl or a tricep specific exercise in a very long time either, and I hardly think my arms are suffering for it. It's funny because I have a group of friends who are really into working out, but honestly don't know how to do things the right way. These guys would not workout at all during the winter, then take steroids and workout like crazy during the summer months, and then stop again. Now they are trying to do it without the roids, and they are all messed up. Separate arm days, an hour and a half session devoted just to shoulders, and then a leg workout later the same day for another hour. And they wonder why I am bigger than them when I tell them what I do. They love telling me all the new shoulder exercises they learned to do supersetted with this and that, and I say all I do is one single rep of a dumbbell press and they are shocked. One of them wants to try it "my way" in the winter, but we'll see about that.

Which segways back on topic as they have absolutely no clue about nutrient timing to maximize their gains. They will go out drinking and drink themselves to oblivion and then go right to bed. Hmm, wonder what the body is burning during the night with that stuff in them?

I always try to have a Muscle Milk shake before bed, as I like the higher fat content with my nighttime protein, and I really hate cottage cheese, so this works well I think. I messed around with ricotta cheese before bed, which really has a nice protein/fat profile, but it's pretty expensive, so that didn't last too long. I will say that the MM shake actually keeps me pretty satisfied throughout the night, I'm guessing it's the fat, whereas if I had something with carbs and protein with low fat, I would wind up hungry if I didn't fall asleep within an hour or so.

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AKIRA

For the first time in months, I have a tummy ache for making a protein shake with milk and EvoPro (casein based protein). However, tonight I sacrificed my 2nd scoop of Evo with Whey.

6' 209lbs (8/16)
Bench 365 (12/3)
Weighted Pullups 80lbs 3x3 (3/19)
Squat 370
Deadlift after herniation 385lbs 3x3 (3/17)
NASM certified 2/06
Journal

SnowManSnow

Ok I've been following this one.. I'ma noob, so maybe if I explain it (hoepfully its right) then a newb can understand it.

Bodies use sleep to repair.

Bodies are programed that fat is more important to survival than muscle.

Therefore muscle will be consumed before fat during sleep IF there is no fuel in the stomach.

SO you eat before bed so that you dont consume muscle ?

Ok, I confused myself agiain.. CRAP.

Jodi

Liver glycogen is the first to burn during sleeping. So you are burning calories but not burning fat. If your liver glycogen gets depleated it then turns to muscle to break down for energy and amino acids. This is why protein and some fat is a must for pre-bed.

Fat is the last energy source that your body turns to during rest. As said above, fat is for survival. Long ago our bodies learned to keep as much fat as it could because early man didn't have enough food on a day to day basis, especially in cold months. So the body holds onto the fat and uses it as a last resource. This is one of the reasons people find it easier to put on muscle than to burn fat.

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lucifuge