garyggiraffe

Hey guys. So I'm trying to cut. I am 6'1'' 175 lbs and typically lift 4 times a week for 1.5-2 hours. My only real cardio is I run to the gym when I go, which takes about 10 minutes. I have been eating really well for over a year now, which has helped me to lose around 60 lbs. But I still have too much fat on my abs, sides, and chest. I typically eat 2400-2600 calories over about 5 meals daily, which I think is below maintenance for a man of my size, but I really have no clue what my particular maintenance intake is. I try to take in a 2:2:1 ratio of cals from protein, carbs, and fat. But I've heard that it is good to eat more fat and protein and cut down on carbs when cutting.

I try to eat 180+ grams of protein daily, but its hard on my budget. Is it bad to get like 60+g from whey protein shakes? What are some cheap forms of protein from food sources if so?

Also, how can I get more healthy fats in my diet? I get fats from burgers, chicken, steak, chili, and I take 1g of fish oil daily. But meat is expensive and I'm on a tight budget. So what you you guys recommend for me? I eat a good amount of egg whites, so should I eat some yolks along with them?

I would really appreciate it if you would help me formulate a diet plan!

Built

Your maintenance is what you eat to neither gain nor lose. If you are eating 2500 a day and not losing, this is YOUR maintenance.

Do you weigh your food?

Read the first two articles here by the way, it might help you set up some ideas.

garyggiraffe

Thanks built. I just started tracking my calories like a week ago with fitday.com, so I'm not really sure what maintenance is for me. I think I'm going to restrict my calories to 2000 a day. Do you think that is too few for a man of my size? I know I didn't give you much info, but maybe you could ballpark it.

So, from the articles on your page that I read through, it seems you are a big advocate of the low carb diet. So would you recommend getting a 2:2:1 ratio of calories from fat, protein, and carbs? And what are some of your favorite sources of each? I'm a college student and not much of a cook, so I pretty much eat stuff as is (hard-boiled egg whites, burgers, steak, grilled chicken breast, cereal). I always eat healthy, but when I started tracking my macros, I realized its really hard to get enough protein from food sources.

Oh and I don't really weigh my food, I just use the nutritional labels on the meat I eat, which is a pretty rough estimate. I guess I should probably get a food scale, huh?

Built

My husband weighs what you do, he's probably twice your age (he's very active though, mountain bikes, lifts weights), and his maintenance is about 2700 (last time we tracked). How about we go with 2700 for you too? Try dropping to 2200, see what happens. You can always drop more - but why drop too low if you don't have to?

I'm not a fan of ANY ratio of protein to fat to carbs - BUT if you anchor your macros on your lean mass, you'll get to your best fit a lot more quickly.

If you read the articles, you'll see that I use LBM-targeted "dosings'. How about you work through the exercise and see what that gives you?

garyggiraffe

I just ordered a food scale on Amazon today, so I'll be able to keep track of my calories really well now! So, I don't know if I have a really low metabolism or what, but I ate only around 1500 calories today and it wasn't that difficult. Granted, I was at the new Batman flick for about 3 hours and was pretty hungry throughout, but still. Here is my day:

10am:
5 hard boiled egg whites - 85 cals, 1g fat, 1g carb, 18g protein
1 hard boiled egg w/ yolk - 78 cals. 5g fat, 1g carb, 6g protein

1pm:
1 ground beef burger - 330 cals, 23g fat, 0 carb, 29g protein
1 whole wheat bun - 210 cals, 3g fat, 35g carb, 10g protein

6pm:
8 oz. chicken breast - 200 cals, 1g fat, 0 carb, 46g protein
1 italian sausage link - 300 cals, 25g fat, 2g carb, 16g protein
3 oz. skim milk - 34 cals, 0 fat, 5g carb, 3g protein
3 tabs ON Opti-Men multivitamin
1 cap ON Fish Oil - 10 cals, 1g fat, 0 carb, protein

11pm:
1 serving Goldfish crackers - 140 cals, 5g fat, 20g carb, 4g protein
1.5 oz beef jerky - 120 cals, 2g fat, 5g carb, 23 g protein

So my totals for the day:
1524 cals - 590 from fat, 262 from carbs, 622 from protein
66g fat, 72g carbs, 156g protein

I really want to get at least 180g protein everyday, but its just so hard. And expensive! But anyway, how did I do today?

Is eating only 1500 calories an unhealthy caloric deficit? It seems really outrageous to me if we say my maintenance is 2700. Will this cause my body to go into some sort of metabolic shock and burn off all my muscle? As most dieters do, I want to keep my muscles and burn the fat. Any suggestions or advice would be GREATLY appreciated.

Built

Those cals seem too low to me. I'd probably increase the fats a bit. For fairly lean people, I don't like to see much more than a 20% reduction below maintenance for anything outside of very short-term PSMF type dieting.

Cheap protein: cottage cheese, canned tuna, egg whites, protein powder...

garyggiraffe

So I saw alot of people referring to this PSMF diet and I looked into it. I read Lyle McDonald's book, The Rapid Fatloss Handbook, and I think I want to try it as a jumpstart to a more moderate diet. I've seen you post about it a few times, so I figure you're pretty knowledgeable on the subject. There were some things in the book that Lyle was unclear on.

Like using protein powder as a substantial source of dietary protein. He seemed against it, but his only explanation was that it wouldn't reinforce healthy eating habits and people would be more likely to gain the weight back if they used powder in place of real food. I don't have any problem controlling my eating and I always eat very healthy. So is there any other reason it would be a bad idea to get say 80+ g of my protein intake from 100% whey protein shakes?

Also, he recommends 6g of fish oil daily, but I've seen others (possibly you?) recommend 10+g daily. Which should I do? The 6g would certainly be cheaper, but if there's a good reason to take more, I will.

Finally, I'm a little confused about which category of his I might fall into. I really don't know for sure my BF%, but I have used a bunch of estimates using my height, weight, waist size, etc. and they have me ranging anywhere from 9%-16%. They all seem kinda low to me. I am definitely thin and I have been lifting weights for over a year, but I still have a good amount of fat on my stomach, sides, back, and chest. For my 6'1'' 175 lb frame, is it possible that I would fall into category 2? Or should I just play it safe and follow the category 1 diet?

And finally, I have a question about cottage cheese. Lyle has it on his food list, but it is sorta high in carbs. I use Dean's Fat Free small curd, which has 160 cals, 10g carbs, and 26g protein in 1 cup. The protein content is great, but I'm worried about the carbs. I know 10g isn't a whole lot, but 3 cups of this stuff amounts to 120 calories from carbs, which seems too high an amount to be eating on this diet. Is the cottage cheese I'm using unusually high in carbs? Or do you think this is fine for this diet? I'm definitely going to stock up on cans of tuna regardless, and probably a bunch of chicken breast as well.

And finally (sorry for so many questions!) I am confused about refeeds. So, do I understand this correctly? The first day after I stop this diet (11-12 days in) I am supposed to eat the same stuff I've been eating on the diet, but also add like 50g fat and 3500-4000 calories from carbs on top of that?!?!? And then I should taper down to like 2000 from carbs the next day? And then 1000 the final day of the refeed? Then after this refeed period I should begin immediately on a normal, slow-paced diet?

Thanks so much Built for your help. It is much appreciated.

Built

No, it's fine. I find whey makes me hungry, but if you don't get that from whey, knock yourself out.
I wrote about this in an article. Basically, 10g will provide 3g combined EPA/DHA, which is safe without a doctor's supervision according to the AHA, so that's what I take. 6g is fine.
At your height, I can't see how you'd be a cat II at 175 lbs. It's possible, but I just don't see it. Honestly, I don't know why you'd want to cut at this weight.

If you DO, consider yourself a category I dieter, since the cutoff is 15% and you're either at or under 16%. Call it 15% and be done with it.

You'll want to get in 300g protein and 6-10g fish oil, plus tag-alongs from veggies etc. Total will work out to about 1400 calories per day, counting everything.

Get in two full-body workouts a week, low volume and heavy. I did the full-body on my blog as 2-3 sets of 5-8 reps. I did a little recreational walking and no other exercise for the two weeks I did PSMF.



I ate cc on PSMF. Also tuna, chicken breast, buffalo and hardboiled egg whites.
Assuming you have 150 lbs lean mass, after 12 days, you'll do roughly this for the two day refeed:

825g carb
50g fat
200g protein
4550 calories

375g carb
50g fat
200g protein
2750 calories

Any of this help?

garyggiraffe

Wow, thanks so much! You are a tremendous help! I know it sounds like I shouldn't need to PSMF at my current height and weight, but I've been trying to get abs for so long now and I feel like this is going to be the fastest, easiest way to do it.

My plan is to cut down til I get the definition I want (maybe just the 2 weeks of PSMF will be enough for this) and then I'm going to start a bulking regimen. My issue is I just don't look good with my shirt off right now, which is a problem since I love going to the beach. I figure that a good amount of the weight I'll gain while bulking will be muscle, since I eat so well already, so I hope this plan will work for me.

Thanks again, you are a treasure trove of information

garyggiraffe

Hey Built,

So today was day 11 on the PSMF, my last day! I haven't weighed in since Thursday at which point I was at 167 (down from 173). But I am DEFINITELY glad to be done with this bad boy. I didn't find the calorie restriction to be too difficult, but not being able to eat any carbs or fat was REALLY tough. Also, the low energy level was hard on me.

But anyway, tomorrow is refeed day and you already outlined the macros for me, but I was just wondering, am I allowed to eat really crappy carbs (cereal, pasta, etc.)? Or do I have to stick with the whole grains? Oh boy I am really craving some chili. And rice. And cookies! Hope I don't overdo it hehe.

Built

Crappy is fine, but it needs to be low fat. Can you get lowfat chili, lowfat cookies? I rely on those sweetened rice cakes - caramel corn flaver is the best IMO.

Major props for surviving the PSMF and the weight loss - you WILL puff up with water over the next few days, and of course you will be replenishing glycogen, so your weight will be up once things settle down from the refeed, but you should see at least 2-3 lbs of net FAT loss once the dust clears, possibly more.

juggernaut

In my first week of the PSMF, I've dropped close to 7 lbs. My energy is fine, but those cravings are insane; never have I craved peanut brittle like I do now. I like it, but not that much. I've heard that when you start craving the things you dont have or cant have, it means the diet is working. there any truth to this?

Built

When you see the number on the scale go down, the diet is working.

juggernaut

garyggiraffe

Awesome! So far today I've had a major dose of cereal, pancakes, whole grain bread, and a few cookies. Refeeding rocks But, I haven't got much in the way of protein yet (56g), and I'm already at 35g of fat, so the rest of the day isn't going to be quite as tasty. But thanks again Built for all your help. You are terrific!

musclemilk40

all this is nonsense until you check your bmr and lean body mass, once you have those two figures you can structure a diet plan that will get you the abs you want. The diet out lined above looked good, just looking at what you wrote i would say 17 to 1800 calories a day is what you need, now, a pound of fat has 3600 calories in it.....you decide how you want to burn 7200 cals a week which is optimal. Can be through cutting calories or by cardio, or both which is preferred. lets say one session on the old stair stepper burns about 400 cals, and you cut your calories by 200 a day, thats 600 cals per day times 7 days that 4200 calories, not quite the two pounds you want but this insures preservation of muscle. So get the bmr and lean bodyweight figures than come back and we can structure something for you.

Eat to Live, Don't Live to Eat

Built

I have no idea what my BMR is.

I just track intake, use this to estimate MY maintenance, and to drop fat, train heavy and reduce intake by 15-20%.

I would hardly recommend doing this much cardio seven days a week to cut! Besides, the OP just came of a cycle of PSMF.

SuzieKitson

Like using protein powder as a substantial source of dietary protein. He seemed against it, but his only explanation was that it wouldn't reinforce healthy eating habits and people would be more likely to gain the weight back if they used powder in place of real food. I don't have any problem controlling my eating and I always eat very healthy. So is there any other reason it would be a bad idea to get say 80+ g of my protein intake from 100% whey protein shakes?

Thanks so much help for your health.

musclemilk40

Okay, that's the problem with most beginner to median lifters, they are so scared of cardio, cardio is your friend bro, whether you are cutting or bulking, it allows more uptake of oxygen when you are lifting heavy, in other word's you squeeze out one or two extra reps. Im not saying run a marathon every day, 25 minutes on level 14 on the olyptical should be, you should be able to carry on a conversation the whole 25 minutes without gasping for air, trust me, this aint gonna rob even the hardest gainer of muscle.

Bmr is basal metabolic rate, is how much your metabolism will burn just by itself on a daily baisis.

Eat to Live, Don't Live to Eat

garyggiraffe

Why do I need to know my BMR if I know my maintenance caloric intake? If you base your diet off BMR, don't you have to figure in every single activity you do throughout the day? Seems like an unnecessary level of precision. Like Built was saying, if I know my average maintenance calories, I can just subtract calories from that and create a deficit with a combination of my food intake and cardio, right? That seems alot easier.

musclemilk40

Yes, that will be close enough, i would just want be sure that im not burning muscle instead of fat you see what im saying, thats why the lean body mass test and bmr is important, but the way youre doing it will work too. good luck bro

Eat to Live, Don't Live to Eat

garyggiraffe

Ok cool dude. So what system do you follow when you cut? How much of a deficit do you create and how long does it take to lose the fat?

musclemilk40

as i said in my initial post a pound of bodyweight is equal to about 3600 calories correct....so we know 1 gm carb and 1 gm protein have 4 cal's per gram, while fat has 9 cal's per gram. The optimum amount to lose per week is about 2 pounds which would be 7200 calories in a week or about 1000 calories each day. So 1 good cardio session should burn 400 cals, weight training at least that if not more, so cut your food cals by 200 a day and see what happens.

Eat to Live, Don't Live to Eat

garyggiraffe

Well that seems simple enough man. I appreciate your advice. I'll give it a try.

Built

A pound of bodyFAT stores about 3500 or so calories, not bodyWEIGHT. There is nothing "optimal" about losing two pounds of fat a week. Unless you're quite fat, two pounds a week is a LOT. Far too fast for most.