Thread: Completely....utterly confused (cardio and nutrition)

Originally Posted by islandjock

Hi, first post, but been reading the forums all day. First a sec about me:

22 yrs old, 170 pounds, 5'11 (I was 188 about 3 months ago but I drastically altered my diet as part of a New years thing, no more junk, just whole foods and low fat). I have worked out my p/c/f ratio although it is very rough to : 50/30/20. I am currently eating around 1600-1800 calories a day, all good foods (no junk).

Could you give an idea of the grams of protein, carb and fat here? These calories look way too low to me. How fast are you losing weight?

Originally Posted by islandjock

I'm not trying to become a bodybuilder (although I have nothing but respect for those who are or want to be, just not my goal). I'm really just looking to look good and feel good, basically the beach-body type (6 pack, good definition, with some somewhat larger muscles - nothing compared to a body builder, though). Sometimes when reading posts people disagree with one another and it can become really confusing for a 100% newbie to really take away information from a post.

You want bigger muscles = you will body "build" - that's what it means, to build the body. You just don't want to get particularly jacked is all. This is a perfectly reasonable goal - and for the most part, what most people think of as fit, healthy and attractive. Bodybuilding methodology produces this look, not to worry - you're in the right place.

Originally Posted by islandjock

I've been reading some stuff and I could use some clarification:

1. I've been reading that cardio really isn't as important as people thing it is for shedding excess fat and that it can actually destroy muscle via catabolysis. But if I were to have a protein shake after cardio, have I not essentially shed some fat but managed to provide my muscles with protein to maintain their size/mass? And at the same time revved up my metabolism for the day?

Not really. You can't flex fat, and cardio doesn't stimulate muscle to stick around, hence the problem. Cardio doesn't rev up your metabolism - lifting does that. And you burn muscle and fat with the running. To drop fat you want to lose weight and hold back muscle. It's kinda sneaky.

Originally Posted by islandjock

2. I've been doing morning cardio (about 40 minutes burning 600 calories) before eating anything, really. I usually have 15 or so grams of whey protein with water, then run. I heard not eating before running and after a sleeping session will burn fat more easily. Is this correct? Also, how long should I be waiting after a run to eat and should it be mostly protein, or carbs?

It might burn mostly fat, but not all of it will be fat, and you're running one hum-dinger of a caloric deficit. Unless you're running some pretty good AAS, you're going to lose muscle.

No need to feed carbs to cardio. I only feed carbs to lifting workouts, as a rule. Or to HIIT.

Originally Posted by islandjock

3. I've been working out in the evening, but from reading many posts it sounds like I should be working out first, then doing cardio immediately after for only 20 minutes or so. If that's the case, do I have my protein immediately after the workout, or do I wait until after my cardio?

I lift at night. I hate lifting in the AM.

Originally Posted by islandjock

4. There seems to be a very united claim that one cannot build muscle and lose fat at the same time. However, is it possible to 100% maintain the muscle you have while shedding excess fat?

Not unless you're a newbie, and or running AAS..

Originally Posted by islandjock

Is this the correct order in which to do something, or should I be trying to ad a couple pounds of muscle first, then try to shed some fat (with the expectation of losing some muscle I gained)?

Summer's coming. Cut now, bulk in the fall.

It Is The Way Of Our People.

Originally Posted by islandjock

5. I've read some posts that claim lifting can put you in the same target heart rate as cardio. If so, can't I just lift, have a protein shake, and therefore build muscle while burning fat?

You can't gain muscle unless the body has a reason to put it on - that is, you lift heavy enough to cause sufficient stimulus, and you eat enough food to ensure weight gain.

Sorry.

Originally Posted by islandjock

Thank you for your time. I'm mainly confused with whether I should be dedicating as much time to cardio as I have been. I basically just want to gain some muscle, and lose alot of the fat around it, and I had always figured cardio was the best way to do that.

Sorry about the long first post...

Good questions all around.

Please read the link on getting started in my sig - we'll take it from there.

Welcome to IMF.

#1 no because your still telling your body you don't need that muscle so it will use that, lifting heavy tells your body you need the muscle.

#2 not to sure but it sounds like a myth to me food timing is not to important except to right after training and withing a few hours before .

#3cardio should come after lifting 100% even tho cardio is not necessary , you can have your shake right after your done cardio

#4That is true you will lose some muscle mass while cutting, but if you are 100% NEW to weight training, and not doing any cardio you will gain a small amount of muscle.

#5 again if your 100% new yes you can build some muscle and lose fat but that WILL NOT last for long eventually the muscle gains will stop

and the last part no if you dont like cardio then stop doing it there is no need , get your diet in check , and get your training in check , if you want help on your diet we ask that you go to FitDay - Free Weight Loss and Diet Journal and enter your intake for a day then post the results, we prefer having the info in grams not ratios, lift heavy weights in the gym for diet info you can always ask for some tips from Built and for training you can always ask P-funk for some help.

lol built beat me to it

You said it well, though!

thanks but since your here to help i'm going to bed

plus i better say it well learned it from you

Wow! That was incredibly informative. Thank you BUILT and Ngordyn, I have a couple questions (as usual):
1. What are AAS?
2. And since I am completely new at this, do you advise that I start with BUILTS beginner Basic Whole Body Workout?
3. What are the benefits of the HIIT training, and do I do them on non-lifting days? If I were to do BUILTS Basic workout Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday, and do HIIT on say Friday, does that seem reasonable?
4. How long before my workout should I take creatine?
5. How long after my workout should I wait to take some whey protein shake, and do I add simple carbs like dextrose to the shake to increase muscle glycogen stores and absorption of protein? Should I intake more carbs or more protein after a lifting session?
6. I plan on lifting very early in the AM because I am a morning person. Should I eat before the lifting session at all, or can I get away with eating after?

Thank you, this forum is excellent and Builts blog is very informative.

Oh sorry Built, in answer to your question I was losing weight pretty rapidly for a while, I have been at 170 for about 2 weeks now and it doesn't seem to be going any lower.

I've realized that if I should be cutting, what do I leave out of my diet? Do I just really reduce carbs and fats, and up protein and keep my work out level the same? Do I reduce weight and increase reps?

I'd help, but my method of cutting has been deemed "unhealthy" and "a scourge to mans body"<-- My friend Jake came up with that, smartass.

For cutting I like to keep it low all around low calories 1200 or so, minimal fat/carbs and maximum protein.

Originally Posted by islandjock

Wow! That was incredibly informative. Thank you BUILT and Ngordyn, I have a couple questions (as usual):
1. What are AAS?

Anabolic steroid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by islandjock

2. And since I am completely new at this, do you advise that I start with BUILTS beginner Basic Whole Body Workout?

Yep.

Originally Posted by islandjock

Anabolic steroid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

3. What are the benefits of the HIIT training, and do I do them on non-lifting days? If I were to do BUILTS Basic workout Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday, and do HIIT on say Friday, does that seem reasonable?[/quote]
Read "daredevils are shredded" - it'll tell you more than you ever wanted to know about HIIT. For now, I'd hold off. You can try "eight seconds of doom" once or twice a week if you like though. Link's on my blog.

Originally Posted by islandjock

4. How long before my workout should I take creatine?

Doesn't matter. Some take it before, some after, some in the AM every day.

Originally Posted by islandjock

5. How long after my workout should I wait to take some whey protein shake,

You don't need one. I don't bother unless I'm bulking. You CAN, if you can afford the calories, but there's no real need. Just go home and eat a meal.

Originally Posted by islandjock

and do I add simple carbs like dextrose to the shake to increase muscle glycogen stores and absorption of protein?

See above.

Originally Posted by islandjock

Should I intake more carbs or more protein after a lifting session?

Protein for sure, carbs if your calorie budget allows. No specific amount, but while cutting, you might as well save all your starches for this pre/post workout window.

Originally Posted by islandjock

6. I plan on lifting very early in the AM because I am a morning person. Should I eat before the lifting session at all, or can I get away with eating after?

This would be a good place for a whey shake. Easy on the tummy. You could have some carb with it if you have the calories. Half a bagel, or a piece of toast with jam could serve. Or a banana. Have your creatine with this meal.

Originally Posted by islandjock

Thank you, this forum is excellent and Builts blog is very informative.

Originally Posted by islandjock

Oh sorry Built, in answer to your question I was losing weight pretty rapidly for a while, I have been at 170 for about 2 weeks now and it doesn't seem to be going any lower.

You may have dropped too low. Try easing the calories back up for a bit, maybe 2000 a day this week, 2200 a week next week, let your body get used to a little more food. You can increase your activity level a bit while you do this if you like.

Originally Posted by OuiSwim

I'd help, but my method of cutting has been deemed "unhealthy" and "a scourge to mans body"<-- My friend Jake came up with that, smartass.

For cutting I like to keep it low all around low calories 1200 or so, minimal fat/carbs and maximum protein.

No you wouldnt help. You would hurt. Trust me.

Instead of making jokes why not do some research so you won't continue to look ignorant while posting such nonsense. Minimal fats and carbs like you've been brainwashed to do by the media selling you something. But then again, your pic shows what happens when you do that and take in 1200 calories!

I started reading "burn the fat feed the muscle" Its an excellent book and explains exactly what everyone is talking about here. I worked out for years but never realized my true potential because my diet was never good. I realize now how important it is - I am back to being a noob after being off for 2 years, but I am making some progress with my new found info on nutrition. Don't use low cal diets - they only hurt you.

Cheers.

Thanks for the great information everyone. Everything is much clearer since I've joined this site. Here is my plan:

1. Wake up early, small amount of quality carbs in the AM with some creatine
2. BUILTS Basic (beginner) Sunday Tues Thurs early morning
3. Protein shake with some carb (maybe gatorade powder) after workout (looking at my eating habits I believe I can afford these calories)
4. HIIT on Fridays (probably the 8 seconds of thunder)
5. 2000 Calories per day at a 50/30/20 ratio.

Does this seem reasonable?

I'm taking Builts advice and I'm not going to bulk right before summer (good thinking), I'm going to cut but I do not know how much muscle I really have under my relatively thin layer of fat, I'm not really soft anywhere but I'm not lean and do not have much defintion. So I'm thinking the protein shakes and creatine will at least maintain my muscle mass to a certain extent.
Any thoughts?
And do many people use something like gatorade powder or should I be using something else?
And does anyone recommend protein after HIIT anyway, or should I just have a gatorade or something after and leave it at that?
PS. This site rocks.

Originally Posted by islandjock

Thanks for the great information everyone. Everything is much clearer since I've joined this site. Here is my plan:

1. Wake up early, small amount of quality carbs in the AM with some creatine

Get some protein in, too - shake maybe.

Originally Posted by islandjock

2. BUILTS Basic (beginner) Sunday Tues Thurs early morning
3. Protein shake with some carb (maybe gatorade powder) after workout (looking at my eating habits I believe I can afford these calories)

That's fine, but I wouldn't bother with the gatorade powder. How about a protein shake and a bagel?

Originally Posted by islandjock

4. HIIT on Fridays (probably the 8 seconds of thunder)

DOOM, baby. Not thunder.

Originally Posted by islandjock

5. 2000 Calories per day at a 50/30/20 ratio.

This last part… how about you start thinking in grams instead of rather meaningless percentages. What would your current plan look like in grams?

Originally Posted by islandjock

Does this seem reasonable?

I'm taking Builts advice and I'm not going to bulk right before summer (good thinking), I'm going to cut but I do not know how much muscle I really have under my relatively thin layer of fat, I'm not really soft anywhere but I'm not lean and do not have much defintion. So I'm thinking the protein shakes and creatine will at least maintain my muscle mass to a certain extent.

Adequate dietary protein and heavy lifting will do this. Protein shakes are just convenient protein. Creatine's good for you, period.

Originally Posted by islandjock

Any thoughts?
And do many people use something like gatorade powder or should I be using something else?

See above.

Originally Posted by islandjock

And does anyone recommend protein after HIIT anyway, or should I just have a gatorade or something after and leave it at that?
PS. This site rocks.

Feed HIIT like a lifting workout.

i just use milk for my shake, the rest is good follow what built tells you and you'll ripped in no time she knows her shit

Originally Posted by Merkaba

No you wouldnt help. You would hurt. Trust me.

Instead of making jokes why not do some research so you won't continue to look ignorant while posting such nonsense. Minimal fats and carbs like you've been brainwashed to do by the media selling you something. But then again, your pic shows what happens when you do that and take in 1200 calories!

Brain washed by the media? News flash, everyones body works different. What works for you might not work for me. Leave me to my methods and I'll leave you to yours. By the way I may be considered "skinny" but I still have muscle.

I'm taking everything Built has said to heart, I've also just read a forum by Gent 3867 called "Cutting" and it was very informative.

I'll do heavy lifting in her beginners workout (once I get proper form nailed), high protein, low carb, low fat (I'll work out it out in grams by tonight instead of those percentages by using Builts Sig Link), and then I'll have some fun with the 8 seconds of Doom (ironically that's what my ex-girlfriend used to call our love life ....).

Protein and very small amount of carbs pre and post workout (maybe half a bagel with jam before, half after,

wait an hour for breaky, and then 3 or 4 small meals - mostly protein and veggies - throughout the day.

As for the protein, I was planning on sticking to chicken and fresh salmon, veggies raw.

Is this rumour about carbs before bed being a terrible idea true? Aside from the pre and post workouts should I just avoid carbs and stick to protein and fibre?

Originally Posted by islandjock

I'm taking everything Built has said to heart, I've also just read a forum by Gent 3867 called "Cutting" and it was very informative.

I'll do heavy lifting in her beginners workout (once I get proper form nailed), high protein, low carb, low fat (I'll work out it out in grams by tonight instead of those percentages by using Builts Sig Link), and then I'll have some fun with the 8 seconds of Doom (ironically that's what my ex-girlfriend used to call our love life ....).

Protein and very small amount of carbs pre and post workout (maybe half a bagel with jam before, half after,

wait an hour for breaky,

No need to wait - unless you aren't hungry.

Originally Posted by islandjock

and then 3 or 4 small meals - mostly protein and veggies - throughout the day.

Or one huge one. Doesn't matter. Go by comfort.

Originally Posted by islandjock

As for the protein, I was planning on sticking to chicken and fresh salmon, veggies raw.

Is this rumour about carbs before bed being a terrible idea true?

no

Originally Posted by islandjock

Aside from the pre and post workouts should I just avoid carbs and stick to protein and fibre?

For comfort, that's how I eat. Your appetite may not be overstimulated by carbs. Once you hit the minimums for protein and fat, the rest just comes down to calorie limit, and comfort.

Originally Posted by OuiSwim

Brain washed by the media? News flash, everyones body works different. What works for you might not work for me. Leave me to my methods and I'll leave you to yours. By the way I may be considered "skinny" but I still have muscle.

nobody's bodies body works that way

your calorie intake is dangerously low, if you would do some research and get off your high horse you would realize that

there is good info here from many members, merkaba included no matter how much of a smart ass he is or how brutally honest he is , take it with a smile and learn

ignorance is not bliss

its stupidity

Originally Posted by OuiSwim

Brain washed by the media? News flash, everyones body works different. What works for you might not work for me. Leave me to my methods and I'll leave you to yours. By the way I may be considered "skinny" but I still have muscle.

By all means, continue on your own path if that's how you want to do it. We may not agree or think it's smart or sane, but it's your health and not ours.

That said, don't give out potentially dangerous information to people. Your "diet" has the potential to cause serious lasting damage.

One thing I've been wondering about: full body routines vs targeting different areas each day (ie. back and bi monday, chest and tri wednesday). Is one more advanced than the other, or recommended more than the other? Is one done by more people that the other? What are the advantages/disadvantages of these routines?

Bodypart training is best left to assisted athletes on a bulk. You're natural and you're cutting - stick to movement patterns rather than bodyparts. Heavy compound lifts in horizontal and vertical planes, balancing your push and your pull - bench press, rows, chins, cleans, squats, deads - that's where to carefully spend your limited energy.

Hey Built I am going to go in this week with my buddy who has been working out for a while now with full body. He says I can join him and he can show me his routine, but I'm wondering how effective it is:

Leg Press 12-15 reps, 3 Sets
Leg Curles 12-15, 3
Incline Dumbell Bench, 10-12, 3
Lat Pulldown, 10-12, 3
Military Press, 12-15, 3
Lying Down Tricep Extensions, 10-12, 3
Calf raises, 15-20, 3
Weighted crunches, as many until exhaustion

They all seem like things I could do, although the military press seems a little tricky (any alternatives?). Does this cover everything that a full body should?

Well, it has quad, calf and ham work, horizontal pushing (dumbbell bench), vertical pushing (millies) and pulling (lat pulldowns), some arm work (triceps) and ab work. I've seen worse.

That being said, leg press and leg curls are hardly subs for heavy compound quad dominant work (squats) and heavy compound ham dominant work (Romanians, off the floor deads, good mornings, glute ham raises...). Dumbbell bench is an excellent movement - but lat pulldowns are a poor sub for chinups. Millies are great, do 'em standing - do push presses, Olympic bar corner presses... lots of great pressing movements for delts. Also cleans. Direct tricep work, and virtually no pulling... no heavy deads, more push than pull... ick. And there's really no reason to train abs to exhaustion. I hardly ever train mine, and when I do, it's 3x8, weighted, like any other muscle.

Just do the workout in my blog. Got Built? » Open Source Fitness - Get started here

Scroll down to "basically training".

I'm just going to totally stick by your workout. You mention carb cycling. Will that give me better results, or is it just something people do to have lots of energy on lifting days?

I'll research how to do all these exercises tommorow, and start first thing Friday morning. I'm stoked. As for after the workout, you mention 20 mins of cardio while you have your protein shake. If I'm doing that, should I definately cut out cardio on off days?

As I said earlier, I've been stuck at 170 while in a deficit for 2 weeks now. I am looking forward to seeing what happens! Thanks for everything!

Oh and one other major thing!...How many reps of all these do I do? Should I just be trying to the 8-10 reps, three sets each routine?

I explain the rationale for carb cycling in the carb cycling post on the blog.

The rep ranges are all listed in "basically training".

Just breathe - you're going to be fine.

Originally Posted by OuiSwim

Brain washed by the media? News flash, everyones body works different. What works for you might not work for me. Leave me to my methods and I'll leave you to yours. By the way I may be considered "skinny" but I still have muscle.

Just cause your super skinny and can see your muscles doesnt mean you have a lot.....

No offence my sister has more