So Lyle, why does dieting suck?

Robboe · 08-06-2002, 06:56 AM

Quote:

I'm basing my comments on a few observations.

1. CCK (cholecystokinin, a rather potent hunger supression factor) only
works when leptin is present in high enough concentrations. When leptin
is low, CCK doesn't blunt hunger.

2. Leptin appears to 'win' the battle over ghrelin in the NPY/AGRP
neurons (the main ones that stimulate hunger/slow metabolic rate). That
is, when leptin is low (for example, early in the day), ghrelin will
reliably stimulate hunger and eating. When leptin is higher (at night),
ghrelin has no effect.

3. Simply thinking about the purposes of the various hormones. Leptin
is primarily a marker of overall body energy stores (and to a lesser
degree short term caloric balance over a day's span): bodyfat mass.
It's relatively slow changes (at least 5 hours to change after meal, to
days) is an indicator of this. Ghrelin/insulin and all of the others
(the dozen and one gut hormones like GLP, CCK, etc, etc) are mainly
markers of short term (meal to meal) energy balance. They change in
seconds (insulin) to minutes or a couple of hours (the others).

The amount of bodyfat/stored energy is a crucial controller of overall
survival, far moreso than any individual meal. So consider a couple of situations.

When leptin is high (bodyfat mass is sufficient, overall calorie balance
is sufficient), you still need to eat to supply the body with energy and
nutrients. So the other hormones (ghrelin, insulin, CCK, etc) are still
going to do their jobs. Ghrelin will stimulate hunger and the other
hormones will shut it off when you've eaten enough (assuing no other
defect in the system). So during the day, when leptin is relatively
lower (and I suspect sensitivity to the other hormones higher), you'll
get hungry when you need to eat, and get full when you've eaten enough.
You're simply fulfilling short-term energy needs. At night, when leptin
is higher and it's time to sleep, the other signals won't really affect
hunger. You should be sleeping, not foraging for food.

But when leptin is low (low bodyfat, starving to death or b/c you're
dieting), all that matters is restoring energy stores. Individual
meals take a far secondary role in the overall scheme, what matters is
restoring bodyfat mass to a safe level (just in case the next famine
comes along). So it makes sense that the short term hunger blunting
hormones (CCK and the rest) wouldn't have an impact on stopping a meal.
You need to cram every calorie in that you have available. It makes
more sense that ghrelin would have a larger impact as well, making you
hungrier that much more. You also tend to have trouble sleeping
although that's probably more a cortisol/catecholamine issue.

So basically, leptin would appear to be determining how well (or poorly)
the other hormones work at doing their job in the overall scheme. And
this is empirically true. Once you get very lean (low leptin), even if
you do everything 'right' in terms of meal planning (high fiber,
moderate fat, all that crap to slow gastric empthying), none of it
matters. You still don't stay full for very long and get hungry again
pretty soon. Why? Becuase the low leptin is setting hte overall 'tone'
of the system; none of the short-term satiety factors can do their jobs
very well.

High leptin (or normal leptin) means you've got enough bodyfat, your
body simply needs to worry about short-term energy needs. So all of the
other sytems (again, assuming no other defect) work just fine.

Low leptin (and maybe leptin resistance since the end result is more or
less the same) makes your brain think you're starving, short-term energy
needs are no longer the most critical aspect: restoring fat mass to a
'safe' level is. So you shouldn't get full very readily, if the food is
available, you should be eating as much of it as possible to restore fat mass.

And that's why dieting sucks.

Lyle

w8lifter · 08-06-2002, 07:48 AM

Very cool Chicken Baby

*prints out leptin articles*

Dr. Pain · 08-06-2002, 07:55 AM

Gives new meaning to HOMEOSTASIS!

Yes Thanks TCD.......if I get time today, I will post some night-time saiety tricks!

DP

Yanick · 08-06-2002, 09:24 AM

Lyle has a great way to keep us optimistic about dieting

Robboe · 08-06-2002, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Pain
Gives new meaning to HOMEOSTASIS!

Yes Thanks TCD.......if I get time today, I will post some night-time saiety tricks!

DP

This really suprises me.

You seem like the kind of person who enjoys hunger pains and cravings so you can battle them and build character.

You seem like the kind of person who would purposely get hooked on heroin just to go cold turkey.

w8lifter · 08-06-2002, 11:13 AM

LMFAO!!!

Robboe · 08-06-2002, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yanick
Lyle has a great way to keep us optimistic about dieting

He's great.

He's potentially the funniest person on the net that i'm aware of.

Yanick · 08-06-2002, 12:26 PM

IMO Lyle McDonald is the best nutritional author/diet guru around

His info isn't all to encouraging though, as he likes to talk about the fact that we don't really have control over our appetites and that we're pretty much f*cked in terms of dieting.

Dr. Pain · 08-06-2002, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy

This really suprises me.

You seem like the kind of person who enjoys hunger pains and cravings so you can battle them and build character.

You seem like the kind of person who would purposely get hooked on heroin just to go cold turkey.

Well, I did give up "Ice Baths" recently!

ThanksTCD for having an open line with Lyle, as Yanick says, a guru"s Guru. That was one thing about Dan, he was available to us, but always short (like he was mad all of the time)....never explaining things, just gave brief, curt, but to the point answers!

DP

mama's boy · 08-06-2002, 01:32 PM

Am I the only person here who likes being hungry?

mesomorphin' · 08-06-2002, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mama's boy
Am I the only person here who likes being hungry?

YES!

(Actually, if I had to choose between feeling hungry and feeling stuffed, I'd take hungry every time....)

Yanick · 08-06-2002, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mama's boy
Am I the only person here who likes being hungry?

Yes you twisted freak of nature!!

08-06-2002, 09:24 AM	#4
Yanick Amor Fati Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,798	Lyle has a great way to keep us optimistic about dieting
Yanick Amor Fati Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,798	"...we have to remember that training is a complicated dance of stimuli and response. Our goal is to understand how to manipulate the stimuli in order to evoke the responses we desire." -Nathan J. Polenchek

08-06-2002, 12:26 PM	#8
Yanick Amor Fati Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,798	IMO Lyle McDonald is the best nutritional author/diet guru around His info isn't all to encouraging though, as he likes to talk about the fact that we don't really have control over our appetites and that we're pretty much f*cked in terms of dieting.
Yanick Amor Fati Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,798	"...we have to remember that training is a complicated dance of stimuli and response. Our goal is to understand how to manipulate the stimuli in order to evoke the responses we desire." -Nathan J. Polenchek

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08-06-2002, 07:48 AM	#2
w8lifter Join Date: May 2001 Location: Around..... Posts: 14,964	Very cool Chicken Baby prints out leptin articles

08-06-2002, 07:55 AM	#3
Dr. Pain Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Get the Duct Tape...I'm Ripped Again! Posts: 11,239	Gives new meaning to HOMEOSTASIS! Yes Thanks TCD.......if I get time today, I will post some night-time saiety tricks! DP

08-06-2002, 11:13 AM	#6
w8lifter Join Date: May 2001 Location: Around..... Posts: 14,964	LMFAO!!!

08-06-2002, 01:32 PM	#10
mama's boy Fat Loss Enthuiast Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 112	Am I the only person here who likes being hungry?