Bro vs Keto - battle of the diets

Moondogg · 05-18-2009, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rantorcha

You are still arguing this?? Jeez woman! Here...le tme use a couple of these cute little emoticon-thingys to show everyone what I am feeling right now...

Rant I dont know why you and Gopro see this as an argument/witch hunt. If it is just an exchange of questions and answers, back and forth then it can be fun, and a great learning tool for those who are following along.

gopro · 05-18-2009, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Now that's not very nice. I'm not calling you any names or accusing you of anything. I'm just trying to clear up some of this quandary.

Getting back to the question, can you define what you mean by "ideal" in this context?

Now, now...I never said you were "name calling" or getting personal...that is different. However, I just do not see the quandry at all.

Ok, let's remove the word "ideal" because for some reason that has thrown you. Let me rephrase that sentence and say:

It is the ketosis in so much that there is a lack of carbs for fuel, and thus a shift to extreme low levels of insulin, and higher levels of glucagon, growth hormone, catecholamines, and glucocorticoid. This hormonal "cascade" creates an internal envronment wherein the fat burning "machinery" is in full swing and extremely efficient at this purpose.

Please do not ask me to define "full swing."

**Built** · 05-18-2009, 07:13 PM

What I'm getting at in this context - and thank you for replying - is how is it that this is ideal, and yet not something you would generally try to aim for when dieting down an athlete - you do use it occasionally, at least I think that's what you said.

What is it that distinguishes between the kind of person for whom this is helpful, and for whom it will cause harm?

I swear I am not being confrontational - I absolutely know that there are some people who feel like GARBAGE on keto. You are one of them. My husband wasn't exactly delighted by the experience either. Jugg and I on the other hand, feel WONDERFUL in ketosis. I'd stay here all the time if it weren't for my damned sweet-tooth!

I'll throw you a bone, maybe this will help shape your answers. My approach hinges upon relative levels of comfort/discomfort. I say with full humility that contest prep isn't the apple of my eye. If I ever get on a stage, I'm sure I'll hire someone to prep me.

I find contest-prep academically interesting, but that's where my interest in it ends. I've prepped myself (for my profile and avatar shot), and I've prepped merkaba (for his second-place win, and avatar shot) - and two others who were NOT ready to get on a stage and I told them both, but they wanted to do it for themselves and they both looked their best - just too small to be considered.

The contest thing is the extreme end point of this sport, and it's there to give us all something to cheer for, but for most of us, we're not doing this to get on a stage. Still, it's useful to know anything that helps us achieve OUR goals, even if the stage isn't involved. Most of us in this culture will, in fact, never compete - but what we learn from watching the brave souls who venture onto a stage in their skivvies asking for judgment can do much to narrow the scope of our own personal searches.

I'm tying to get a handle on how YOU make the determination for who will do well on periods of keto dieting, and who won't.

Does this help?

gopro · 05-18-2009, 07:48 PM

But Built...I actually said more than once that I feel just fine on keto diets! I can go without carbs for weeks at a time with no refeed and feel good with decent energy! That does not stop me from losing muscle tissue, however. Nor would it stop anyone.

I don't know...maybe we should remove the word keto and just say that extended zero carb diets are detrimental to muscle tissue...and not the "ketosis" itself. It is the lack of carbs/insulin/glycogen (and the resultant physiological enviroment that then manifests) that directly effects the mechanisms involved in muscle hypertrophy/retention...not the presence of ketone bodies.

Also, another MAIN point is that TRANSIENT periods of zero carbs...1-2 days...can be effective for fat loss, but is not enough time for the body to become catabolic to the point of real muscle loss. It is the EXTENDED/CHRONIC zero carb diet (like Palumbo, for example, champions) that is detrimental to the retention of muscle tissue during a diet.

I really don't think it needs to go any further than this.

**Built** · 05-18-2009, 09:29 PM

I'm fine with that definition - I've never even MET anyone who has done a zero carb diet, much less tried it myself.

I honestly can't see why anyone would do zero carbs on purpose. How boring!

Okay, so how do you decide which of your clients to diet on periods of very low carb, and which not to?

BigPapaPump68 · 05-18-2009, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

But Built...I actually said more than once that I feel just fine on keto diets! I can go without carbs for weeks at a time with no refeed and feel good with decent energy! That does not stop me from losing muscle tissue, however. Nor would it stop anyone.

I don't know...maybe we should remove the word keto and just say that extended zero carb diets are detrimental to muscle tissue...and not the "ketosis" itself. It is the lack of carbs/insulin/glycogen (and the resultant physiological enviroment that then manifests) that directly effects the mechanisms involved in muscle hypertrophy/retention...not the presence of ketone bodies.

Also, another MAIN point is that TRANSIENT periods of zero carbs...1-2 days...can be effective for fat loss, but is not enough time for the body to become catabolic to the point of real muscle loss. It is the EXTENDED/CHRONIC zero carb diet (like Palumbo, for example, champions) that is detrimental to the retention of muscle tissue during a diet.

I really don't think it needs to go any further than this.

God bless you. When I go with no carbs for a week and a half, I want to go insane because my muscles look flat...Or at least that's what my body wants me to think just so i'll go and refeed on a ton of pasta, LOL.

gopro · 05-18-2009, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

I'm fine with that definition - I've never even MET anyone who has done a zero carb diet, much less tried it myself.

I honestly can't see why anyone would do zero carbs on purpose. How boring!

Okay, so how do you decide which of your clients to diet on periods of very low carb, and which not to?

Ok, now I need to define "zero-carb." I do not consider green veggies towards carbs. When I say "zero carbs" I mean no starches/fruit...rice, bread, pasta, potatoes, etc.

I decide on my clients first by looking at them and getting a good idea of their body type (which I have become quite good at). Getting a complete info profile on them. And most of all...working with them a bit and "learning their body/metabolism." As I have done this longer and longer I can learn people faster and faster.

gopro · 05-18-2009, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigPapaPump68

God bless you. When I go with no carbs for a week and a half, I want to go insane because my muscles look flat...Or at least that's what my body wants me to think just so i'll go and refeed on a ton of pasta, LOL.

Well, your body DOES go flat. Glycogen also keeps cells more hydrated. Without much glycogen your cells become "flat." Also, a well-hydrated cell is considered a more "anabolic cell."

**Built** · 05-18-2009, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

Well, your body DOES go flat. Glycogen also keeps cells more hydrated.

True dat. I always have to look it up but I think it's something like 3g of water for every 1g of glycogen. The water's bound up with the glycogen though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

Without much glycogen your cells become "flat." Also, a well-hydrated cell is considered a more "anabolic cell."

Indeed, hence the reason why salt is such an underappreciated friend to the bodybuilder.

Surely you've noticed some trends in the clients you've worked with - for instance, I can usually spot which women are going to respond better to higher protein-and-fat than to lower-fat-and-higher-carbs, at least in terms of comfort and satiety. In my generally non-contest prep world, I've noticed nothing works if the individual can't stick to it.

However, this doesn't speak to the question of "who would win on a stage?"

From a physique-enhancing, "results" perspective, what broad trends have you noted with regard to carb intake and successful cutting?

**Prince** · 05-18-2009, 10:51 PM

as far as being flat the only thing that matters in bodybuilding is how you look on stage the day of the show, I assume that DP is having them do a "carb load" the last few days?

danzik17 · 05-18-2009, 10:51 PM

Can definitely speak to the hydration thing....almost to the end of my zero/low carb period but holy crap I always feel thirsty no matter how much I drink of anything.

**Built** · 05-18-2009, 10:52 PM

You may need salt. Are you salting your food?

gopro · 05-18-2009, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince

as far as being flat the only thing that matters in bodybuilding is how you look on stage the day of the show, I assume that DP is having them do a "carb load" the last few days?

Yes, and many have complained...and I have seen this too...that the body cannot make up for lost ground. There is actual MUSCLE LOSS during the diet, not just temporary flatness. THAT is the point here that I am so desperately trying to get across!!!

And some of his drug-using clients have even seen this...can you imagine naturals?

gopro · 05-18-2009, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

You may need salt. Are you salting your food?

By the way...I have all my competitors salt their food throughout their diet.

**Prince** · 05-18-2009, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

Yes, and many have complained...and I have seen this too...that the body cannot make up for lost ground. There is actual MUSCLE LOSS during the diet, not just temporary flatness. THAT is the point here that I am so desperately trying to get across!!!

And some of his drug-using clients have even seen this...can you imagine naturals?

the only issue I have is DP has produced so many top notch competitors that placed very well, and even win big shows.

**Built** · 05-18-2009, 11:03 PM

Eric, doesn't Palumbo use refeeds with his clients?

**P-funk** · 05-18-2009, 11:05 PM

Why not email Palumbo and get him on here for a discussion?
Everyone is speculating what he does, why not just get him on here and ask him?

patrick

**Built** · 05-18-2009, 11:12 PM

There's a thought...

**Prince** · 05-18-2009, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

Why not email Palumbo and get him on here for a discussion?
Everyone is speculating what he does, why not just get him on here and ask him?

I found this:

The premise of the diet is high protein (about 1- 1 1/2 gram per pound), moderate fat (about 1/2 g per lb) and low low carbs (no direct sources of carbs). During this diet, the brain goes into ketosis (it uses ketone bodies for energy-- fats) and thus the energy requirements by the body can almost all be supplied by fats (which you'll be taking in plenty of). The only activity that uses carbs will be the weight workout which may use 40grams per workout. You will get these 40g indirectly through the foods you'll be eating. As a backup, the cheat meal you'll be having once per week will provide a storehouse of glycogen (glucose) in case of emergency. So, you see, very little gluconeogenesis in the liver will be occurring. If we keep cortisol low (by
restricting STIMULANTS) we'll ensure that muscle is spared!

HAVE YOUR CHEAT MEAL ON THE SAME DAY EVERY WEEK, last meal of the
day so you dont cheat again.

Fiber helps burn fat! Everyone should take fiber 2x per day. Fiber actually helps increase the absorption of calcium.
When following my diet plan (which includes getting your brain into ketosis), there can be NO starchy carbs eaten!

For a 200lb man:

MEAL #1
5 whole eggs (make sure to buy OMEGA-3 EGGS from the supermarket. They contain virtually NO saturated fat and tons of good OMEGA-3 fats); add another 4 egg whites to this (they don?t need to be the Omega-3 ones; you can use liquid egg whites)

MEAL #2
SHAKE: 50g Whey Protein with 1 ? tablespoon of All Natural Peanut butter (no sugar)

MEAL #3
"Lean Protein Meal": 8oz chicken with 1/2-cup cashew nuts (almonds, or walnuts)

MEAL #4
SHAKE: 50g Whey Protein with 1 ? tablespoons of All Natural Peanut butter (no sugar added)

MEAL #5
"Fatty Protein Meal": 8oz Salmon, Swordfish, or RED MEAT with a green salad (no tomatoes, carrots, or red peppers) with 1 tablespoon of Olive Oil or Macadamia nut oil and vinegar

MEAL #6
SHAKE: 50g Whey with 1 ? tablespoon all natural peanut butter or 4 whole (Omega-3) eggs and 4 extra whites

For a 250lb+ man:
Meal 1 6 whole Omega-3 eggs
Meal 2 8oz chicken with 1/2 cup raw almonds
Meal 3 50g whey with 2 tablespoons all natural peanutbutter
Meal 4 8oz salmon with 1 cup asparagus with 1 tablespoon macadamia nut oil
Meal 5 50 g whey with 2 tablespoon PB
Meal 6 6 whole eggs

Remember, it takes 3-4 days to get into a strong ketosis where your brain is using ketone bodies (fats), instead of carbs, for energy. Be patient.

Many times I'll switch to an alternatiing diet where one day it will be protein/fat......then another protein/vegetables (very little fat). The great thing about the body and fat is that ESSENTIAL FATTY ACIDS can be stored in the muscle for several days, up to 2 weeks......therefore, once an adequate storehouse of Essential Fats are built up, the body can be "tortured" a little and it still won't give up muscle (that's assuming you're still taking in adequate protein. Protein can't be stored).

1oz almonds equals 6g carbs (2 of those grams are fiber) and 2oz equals 12g of carbs.

With the beef meal (any fatty protein meal), you should have the green salad with 1 tablespoon of Olive or Mac oil INSTEAD of the nuts. Only eat the nuts with the LEAN PROTEIN MEAL (chicken, turkey, lean fish)

The best fat sources come from the essential fatty acids-- Omega-6 and Omega-3's. Most of us get plenty of Omega-6s from cooking oils, ect..........however the Omega-3's are harder to get. I recommend WHOLE OMEGA-3 EGGS, FaTTY FISHS like SALMON and SWORDFISH and TUNA and MACKEREL, ALMONDS and WALNUTS have some OMEGA-3's (as well as OMEGA-6s). ANother great fat source is MONOUNSATURATES such as EXTRA VIRGIN OLIVE OIL and MACADAMIA NUT OIL.....they aren't essential but they are great for the metabolism (great source of energy) and they are extremely good for your heart.

You're not getting any indirect sources of carbs (just from the 1 spoonful of PB.... you may want to have at least one 1/3cup nuts meal. Remember, Olive or Macadamia nut oil is predominantly a MONOUNSATURATED FAT (good for the heart, but not essential)........ the nuts, and fish oil have the essential fats in them. Also, with regard to FLAX SEED OIL, the OMEGA-3 Fatty Acids found in them (alpha-linolenic acid) has a very poor conversion to DHA and EPA (Essential Omega-3 intermediates) in the HUMAN........therefore, you're much better off taking in FISH OILS (that already contain DHA/EPA) than FLAX SEED OIL.

Once fat loss slows, I always increase cardio first, then I increase the amount of fat burners (clen, Cytomel, lipolyze).........After those other methods are exhausted, only then, do I play with the diet.

Always eat BEFORE lifting........never BETWEEN lifting and cardio.
Artificial Sweetners:
The artificial sweetener itself (eg. aspartame, sucralose) wont cause a problem. It's what some companies complex it with. For example, EQUAL and SPLENDA combine their aspartame and sucrolose with 1g of maltodextrin........whereas, in diet drinks, they don't do that. So, diet drinks are okay, SPLENDA and EQUAL must be used in moderation (STEVIA BALANCE is fine though since they use inulin fiber instead of maltodextrin

Forget using:
-MCT's are a waste when you're dieting. If you're gonna use FATS for an energy source, they might as well serve a function in the body. MCTs are useless. They can only serve as a source of energy!
-Arginine is not going to do anything. It will DO something; just not dramatic.

Cardio:
CARDIO should be performed at a low intensity (under 120bpm heartrate). This will ensure that you use FAT as a fuelsource since as your heartrate increase, carbohydrates begin to become the preferred fuel of choice for the body. When on a low carb diet, you're body will break down muscle and turn that into carbs. Remember, Fat CANNOT be changed into carbs. Therefore, for bodybuilding, the rule of cardio should be LONG DURATION, LOW INTENSITY

never do less than 20 min per session

The BOTTOM LINE is that low intensity cardio (while you might need more of it) ensures that fat is utilized and muscle is spared (especially while on my high protein/moderate fat/low carb diety).

Do you feel the treadmill is better for cardio, or is the bike(stationary or recumbent) just as good? As long as the intensity is LOW, it doesn't matter which piece of equipment you use

Q&A:
Q: Is gluconeogenesis inevitable in your diet?
Dave Palumbo: NO

Q: If so do I need to consume more than 1.5 grams of protein per lb of LBM so as not to lose muscle?
Dave Palumbo: The fat spares the protein....when the brain is in ketosis, the carbohydrate requirements are very very low.

Q: How much (percentage) of my protein intake would be turned into glucose (gluconeogenesis)?
Dave Palumbo: Very little (maybe 10%)

Q: What do you think of submersion in cold water as a means of burning bodyfat (thermogenesis)?
Dave Palumbo: HOCUS POKUS!

Q: How about drinking lots of cold water (I think this was even suggested by Elligton Darden) to help lose bodyfat?
Dave Palumbo: RIDICULOUS

Q: Do you think drinking lots of Green Tea is beneficial to fat loss?
Dave Palumbo: Somewhat helpful.

Q: How much is the ideal dosage of Omega 3 for a 220 lb. individual ?
Dave Palumbo: Try to take in about 9g per day

Q: How many Tbs of peanut butter could I have instead of 1/2 cup of cashewnuts?
Dave Palumbo: 2 tablespoons, two tablespoons of Peanut Butter contains 190 calories and 16 grams of fat (so 1.5 tablespoon equals about 12 grams fat) ...whereas......... 2oz (1/3 cup) almonds (about 40 almonds) = 12g fat

Q: I want to add that if I cant find the omega eggs here locally. Can I use international egg whites and just take an omega supplement?
Dave Palumbo: You can get away with 5 whole eggs (regular ones) once a day........not a big deal. You'll be burning up all that fat anyway.

Q: Whats the max cups # of coffee ( no sugar ) can consume on Dave's diet ?
Dave Palumbo: Try to limit to 2 cups per day.......I realize that towards the end of the diet you may need more to help you get through the day.

Q: If you cook tilapia in macadamon nut oil?do you coun't the oil as your fat for that meal! Depends how much you use.
Dave Palumbo: If you just grease the pan with it, no!

Q: what is the protein,carb and fat ratio for offseason
Dave Palumbo: 50% Protein, 25% fat, 25% carbs

Q: and the ratio for contest prep.
Dave Palumbo:60% protein, 30% fat, 10% carbs

danzik17 · 05-18-2009, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

You may need salt. Are you salting your food?

Should be getting plenty. The majority of my meals are liberally salted with Sea Salt.

**P-funk** · 05-18-2009, 11:54 PM

just emailed him.

we'll see what happens!

patrick

gopro · 05-18-2009, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince

the only issue I have is DP has produced so many top notch competitors that placed very well, and even win big shows.

Please Rob, don't get the wrong idea. Dave is without a doubt one of the greatest minds in this industry. He has helped thousands, and is especially good at dispensing sane and solid information on the proper use and effects of performance enhancing drugs. I have total respect for him, despite the way we left off. Shit, we were getting ready to write a book together!

That said...yes, he has successfully dieted down MANY top competitors, but the majority of those are on drugs...a lot of drugs, and this can easily make up for most of the things I discuss about the pitfalls of keto diets. Thus, I base my discussion/thoughts more on those bodybuilders that compete drug free.

But still, it is my opinion that even drug users should keep some well-timed carbs in their diet. To just use Evan Centopani as an example. He won the Nationals on Dave's diet...and he deserved it. However, he won it no where near at his best (same with Mike Liberatore most recently)! Evan was ripped, but very flat. His muscle had no "pop." In the NYC Pro last weekend, he was back to eating carbs and not only was he ripped, but extremely full and vascular! His muscles were pushing hard through the skin. They were not on Dave's diet.

I think Dave should loosen his approach a bit, and look at each person individually...and not just go keto, keto, keto. I think he would be even MORE successful than he already is!

But anyway...let me again say, that I think Dave is a brilliant man.

**P-funk** · 05-19-2009, 12:01 AM

Hopefully he responds to the thread so we can talk about the possibility of him "loosening his approach"!!

If he registers here and starts to comment in this thread, it will slowly work its way up to one of my favorite threads. I have to admit, the last two or three pages have gotten more into personal attacks and nonsense, so the thread has slipped a little from the top of my list.

Patrick

gopro · 05-19-2009, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

Hopefully he responds to the thread so we can talk about the possibility of him "loosening his approach"!!

If he registers here and starts to comment in this thread, it will slowly work its way up to one of my favorite threads. I have to admit, the last two or three pages have gotten more into personal attacks and nonsense, so the thread has slipped a little from the top of my list.

Patrick

Actually, if he comes here it will just end up to be the same "argument" we had over at MD (forum/mag), which I will not repeat. He disagrees with me...I disagree with him. Same sh%t different forum. Thus, I would stay out of it, and let him just say all he wants to.

Regardless, I think its been a cool thread overall, and I was glad to be a part of it. I honestly do not think there is anything else I could say on this topic, however.

Peace.

**Built** · 05-19-2009, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

just emailed him.

we'll see what happens!

patrick

I did too lol!

nkira · 05-19-2009, 03:49 AM

And now I am waiting for the climax!!!! Cant wait to see the man himself has to say.

Good call Patrick & Built......

juggernaut · 05-19-2009, 06:18 AM

Agreed. Personal opinions aside, this is a good thread with a ton of interesting views.

DROS · 05-19-2009, 02:41 PM

I am here on Dave's behalf to answer any questions and clear up any misconceptions about his dietary recommendations.

I am not here to get into a pissing match with Eric or to disrespect him in anyway. Dave has the utmost respect for Eric and this is not personal.

**dg806** · 05-19-2009, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince

I found this:

Q: and the ratio for contest prep.
Dave Palumbo:60% protein, 30% fat, 10% carbs

OK, so for a good sized guy getting ready for a comp, say 3k calories per day is still 300g carbs per day. This is not even close to being is ketosis.

**dg806** · 05-19-2009, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DROS

I am here on Dave's behalf to answer any questions and clear up any misconceptions about his dietary recommendations.

I am not here to get into a pissing match with Eric or to disrespect him in anyway. Dave has the utmost respect for Eric and this is not personal.

Thank you for your time and the respectful comments.

05-18-2009, 07:13 PM	#273
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,109	What I'm getting at in this context - and thank you for replying - is how is it that this is ideal, and yet not something you would generally try to aim for when dieting down an athlete - you do use it occasionally, at least I think that's what you said. What is it that distinguishes between the kind of person for whom this is helpful, and for whom it will cause harm? I swear I am not being confrontational - I absolutely know that there are some people who feel like GARBAGE on keto. You are one of them. My husband wasn't exactly delighted by the experience either. Jugg and I on the other hand, feel WONDERFUL in ketosis. I'd stay here all the time if it weren't for my damned sweet-tooth! I'll throw you a bone, maybe this will help shape your answers. My approach hinges upon relative levels of comfort/discomfort. I say with full humility that contest prep isn't the apple of my eye. If I ever get on a stage, I'm sure I'll hire someone to prep me. I find contest-prep academically interesting, but that's where my interest in it ends. I've prepped myself (for my profile and avatar shot), and I've prepped merkaba (for his second-place win, and avatar shot) - and two others who were NOT ready to get on a stage and I told them both, but they wanted to do it for themselves and they both looked their best - just too small to be considered. The contest thing is the extreme end point of this sport, and it's there to give us all something to cheer for, but for most of us, we're not doing this to get on a stage. Still, it's useful to know anything that helps us achieve OUR goals, even if the stage isn't involved. Most of us in this culture will, in fact, never compete - but what we learn from watching the brave souls who venture onto a stage in their skivvies asking for judgment can do much to narrow the scope of our own personal searches. I'm tying to get a handle on how YOU make the determination for who will do well on periods of keto dieting, and who won't. Does this help? Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-18-2009, 07:48 PM	#274
gopro NGA/IFPA Pro Bodybuilder Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: GLOBAL! Posts: 10,893	But Built...I actually said more than once that I feel just fine on keto diets! I can go without carbs for weeks at a time with no refeed and feel good with decent energy! That does not stop me from losing muscle tissue, however. Nor would it stop anyone. I don't know...maybe we should remove the word keto and just say that extended zero carb diets are detrimental to muscle tissue...and not the "ketosis" itself. It is the lack of carbs/insulin/glycogen (and the resultant physiological enviroment that then manifests) that directly effects the mechanisms involved in muscle hypertrophy/retention...not the presence of ketone bodies. Also, another MAIN point is that TRANSIENT periods of zero carbs...1-2 days...can be effective for fat loss, but is not enough time for the body to become catabolic to the point of real muscle loss. It is the EXTENDED/CHRONIC zero carb diet (like Palumbo, for example, champions) that is detrimental to the retention of muscle tissue during a diet. I really don't think it needs to go any further than this. All American EFX Sponsored Pro Bodybuilder/Internet Marketing Manager P/RR/S DVD and E-Book now available! P/RR/S DVD http://www.home-gym.com/erbrporepras.html P/RR/S E-BOOK html www.X-traordinaryWorkouts.com Monthly columnist for Muscular Development and Ironman magazines. www.prrstraining.com Time to GROW Without Plateau! Personal Training Gopro is available for online personal training, dietary guidance, and contest prep coaching. Send me a PM or e-mail if interested. Thank you.

05-18-2009, 09:29 PM	#275
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,109	I'm fine with that definition - I've never even MET anyone who has done a zero carb diet, much less tried it myself. I honestly can't see why anyone would do zero carbs on purpose. How boring! Okay, so how do you decide which of your clients to diet on periods of very low carb, and which not to? Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-18-2009, 10:51 PM	#280
Prince IronMagLabs Owner Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 37,393 Photos: 356	as far as being flat the only thing that matters in bodybuilding is how you look on stage the day of the show, I assume that DP is having them do a "carb load" the last few days? IronMagLabs 1-ANDRO Rx Pro-Hormone - BUY 2 GET 1 FREE SPECIAL! BOARD SPONSORS: MassNutrition.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEMProducts.com - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclesProd.com - Steroids, Bodybuilding, Fitness & Training Blog. Maximizer.com - Maximizer Strength for Maximum Performance Befriend on Myspace Follow on Twitter

05-18-2009, 10:51 PM	#281
danzik17 Gender: MALE Elite Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Connecticut Posts: 3,071	Can definitely speak to the hydration thing....almost to the end of my zero/low carb period but holy crap I always feel thirsty no matter how much I drink of anything. Ron Paul 2012 Journal: danzik17's Log - 4-6 Week Strength/Bulk Journal: Sub 10% by April <old>

05-18-2009, 10:52 PM	#282
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,109	You may need salt. Are you salting your food? Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-18-2009, 11:03 PM	#286
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,109	Eric, doesn't Palumbo use refeeds with his clients? Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-18-2009, 11:05 PM	#287
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 31,693	Why not email Palumbo and get him on here for a discussion? Everyone is speculating what he does, why not just get him on here and ask him? patrick E-Book: Take Charge! Everything You Need To Know To Write Your Own Training Programs Online Consulting/Program Design Reality Based Fitness Podcast Check me out on Twitter! Subscribe to our free monthly newsletter! "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

05-18-2009, 11:12 PM	#288
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,109	There's a thought... Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-18-2009, 11:54 PM	#291
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 31,693	just emailed him. we'll see what happens! patrick E-Book: Take Charge! Everything You Need To Know To Write Your Own Training Programs Online Consulting/Program Design Reality Based Fitness Podcast Check me out on Twitter! Subscribe to our free monthly newsletter! "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

05-19-2009, 12:01 AM	#293
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 31,693	Hopefully he responds to the thread so we can talk about the possibility of him "loosening his approach"!! If he registers here and starts to comment in this thread, it will slowly work its way up to one of my favorite threads. I have to admit, the last two or three pages have gotten more into personal attacks and nonsense, so the thread has slipped a little from the top of my list. Patrick E-Book: Take Charge! Everything You Need To Know To Write Your Own Training Programs Online Consulting/Program Design Reality Based Fitness Podcast Check me out on Twitter! Subscribe to our free monthly newsletter! "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

05-19-2009, 06:18 AM	#297
juggernaut Creator of Chaos Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: NJ Posts: 5,463 Photos: 2	Agreed. Personal opinions aside, this is a good thread with a ton of interesting views.

05-19-2009, 02:41 PM	#298
DROS Registered User Join Date: May 2009 Location: RxMuscle.com Posts: 9	I am here on Dave's behalf to answer any questions and clear up any misconceptions about his dietary recommendations. I am not here to get into a pissing match with Eric or to disrespect him in anyway. Dave has the utmost respect for Eric and this is not personal.

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