Bro vs Keto - battle of the diets

**Built** · 05-19-2009, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DROS

I am here on Dave's behalf to answer any questions and clear up any misconceptions about his dietary recommendations.

I am not here to get into a pissing match with Eric or to disrespect him in anyway. Dave has the utmost respect for Eric and this is not personal.

DROS - thank you so much, and welcome!

This thread really took on a life of its own, for sure.

Part of the problem was just nailing down the definition of low carb and keto diet - there's a continuum of dieting strategies that can easily fit either or both of these formats.

Let me start off by saying I'm a big fan of higher fat, very low carb dieting for fat loss - if for no other reason than "it's comfortable!". Low fat, high carb diets make me so hungry I could chew my arm off.

Broser contends that comfortable or not, barring AAS use, this type of dieting catabolizes lean mass in all but the genetic elite. I use this strategy myself and as a former fatty who was on metformin for insulin resistance by the time I was 38 years old, I'm hardly elite. I'm just a middle aged broad who likes steak and hates starving. (The result of my first and so far only real cut are in my profile pic and my avatar. I'm 14% in those, confirmed by DEXA, 100% natural in those shots. I'm now on HRT)

Broser further contends that Palumbo's clients came in flatter and lost too much muscle on his programme - but we're not at all clear on Palumbo's protocol - only that it is low carb and leans heavily on protein and modestly high healthy fats, with emphasis on fish oil and monos, and only LISS cardio if cardio is used at all.

Prince returned with the fact that Palumbo has such an incredible track record of successful athletes.

Palumbo has criticized Broser's article based on inaccuracies pertaining to human physiologic responses to dietary interventions. Broser contends that without an insulin response, muscle will be lost.

Can you shed some light on Palumbo's methods and offer clarification?

**dg806** · 05-19-2009, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Let me start off by saying I'm a big fan of higher fat, very low carb dieting for fat loss - if for no other reason than "it's comfortable!". Low fat, high carb diets make me so hungry I could chew my arm off.

I just wanted to say that since you are a fan of lyle's, he once said that you could get ripped from table sugar given that calories were in check.

**Built** · 05-19-2009, 03:27 PM

You bet. I agree completely.

**dg806** · 05-19-2009, 03:34 PM

Then if its all about calories, why the fight about carbs?

**Built** · 05-19-2009, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dg806

Then if its all about calories, why the fight about carbs?

Exactly.

**Prince** · 05-19-2009, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dg806

I just wanted to say that since you are a fan of lyle's, he once said that you could get ripped from table sugar given that calories were in check.

I would argue that, recent science is proving that a calorie is not just a calorie as once thought.

**Built** · 05-19-2009, 04:50 PM

I am very much looking forward to reading more about this. Robert, you had mentioned something a while back about a study coming out. Any word?

juggernaut · 05-19-2009, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince

as far as being flat the only thing that matters in bodybuilding is how you look on stage the day of the show, I assume that DP is having them do a "carb load" the last few days?

this is the only time where I can truly say that carbs are beneficial. Other than that, if I could stay low carb forever, and compete as a keto bber, I would. But, salt and carbs do have their place. I will stay low carb until I die. I hate the days preceding a show, because I dread how I will feel carbed up.

gopro · 05-19-2009, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DROS

I am here on Dave's behalf to answer any questions and clear up any misconceptions about his dietary recommendations.

I am not here to get into a pissing match with Eric or to disrespect him in anyway. Dave has the utmost respect for Eric and this is not personal.

DROS...not sure who you are but thanks for coming by.

And I think your above comment was awesome. I will say over and over again that THIS IS NOT PERSONAL, just as you mention. I have sat in Dave's home, gone out to dinner with him, and spoken with him more than once about diet and such...I consider him a friend, colleague, and one of the most intelligent people involved in this industry. What happened between us at MD was unfortunate and I only hope he is thriving over at RX Muscle! Experts in this field disagree all the time, and this is nothing new. Give him my best.

**Prince** · 05-19-2009, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

I am very much looking forward to reading more about this. Robert, you had mentioned something a while back about a study coming out. Any word?

study has not been published.

gopro · 05-19-2009, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince

I would argue that, recent science is proving that a calorie is not just a calorie as once thought.

I would argue that as well.

**P-funk** · 05-19-2009, 09:14 PM

Some of Lyle's articles on the subject:

Hormonal Responses to a Fast-Food Meal Compared with Nutritionally Comparable Meals of Different Composition - Research Review | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald

Is a Calorie a Calorie? | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald

Enjoy,

Patrick

**Prince** · 05-19-2009, 10:48 PM

Author Lyle_McDonald - Articles by Lyle_McDonald on Bodybuilding, Diet, Nutrition and Supplements

DROS · 05-19-2009, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

DROS...not sure who you are but thanks for coming by.

And I think your above comment was awesome. I will say over and over again that THIS IS NOT PERSONAL, just as you mention. I have sat in Dave's home, gone out to dinner with him, and spoken with him more than once about diet and such...I consider him a friend, colleague, and one of the most intelligent people involved in this industry. What happened between us at MD was unfortunate and I only hope he is thriving over at RX Muscle! Experts in this field disagree all the time, and this is nothing new. Give him my best.

Thank you Eric. To clarify for you and everyone, I am Dave's assitant (and sitting at his kitchen table right now). I am very well versed in his diet, supplement, and drug recommendations and have applied his dieting methods to myself and people I advise.

On Dave's behalf, I am sorry if you felt his MD response was personal. Nothing in that Q&A was meant to be more then a debate on diet.

I am here to talk theory, science, and results. Dave is stuck finishing up a lot of content we gathered at the NY Pro and preparing to leave in a couple days for the Jr. USA.

DROS · 05-20-2009, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

DROS - thank you so much, and welcome!

This thread really took on a life of its own, for sure.

Part of the problem was just nailing down the definition of low carb and keto diet - there's a continuum of dieting strategies that can easily fit either or both of these formats.

Let me start off by saying I'm a big fan of higher fat, very low carb dieting for fat loss - if for no other reason than "it's comfortable!". Low fat, high carb diets make me so hungry I could chew my arm off.

I am going to be fair (or at least try)...I have dieting both ways personally and had terrible hunger either way. I lose fat quickly and easily and I am sure I can get ripped with carbs, but I found that I am able to take in more calories and hold onto more muscle on Dave's diet plan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Broser contends that comfortable or not, barring AAS use, this type of dieting catabolizes lean mass in all but the genetic elite. I use this strategy myself and as a former fatty who was on metformin for insulin resistance by the time I was 38 years old, I'm hardly elite. I'm just a middle aged broad who likes steak and hates starving. (The result of my first and so far only real cut are in my profile pic and my avatar. I'm 14% in those, confirmed by DEXA, 100% natural in those shots. I'm now on HRT)

I dont know how to intelligently combat this statement...we all lose some muscle on the way to extreme contest condition. This is true for any diet and I have not seen any proof or even anecdotal evidence that a keto diet provides more muscle loss than a moderate carb diet. My opinion is that 90% of the people that think they lost a ton of muscle just never had as much as they hoped. When you lose 80lbs on the way to a show, instead of realizing you were fat, you say that you lost a lot of muscle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Broser further contends that Palumbo's clients came in flatter and lost too much muscle on his programme - but we're not at all clear on Palumbo's protocol - only that it is low carb and leans heavily on protein and modestly high healthy fats, with emphasis on fish oil and monos, and only LISS cardio if cardio is used at all.

The "flat" thing drives me nuts. Someone goes from a bloated 275 to 250 in the first week of the diet and the guy will tell you how flat he is. Stay on the diet for a few weeks, take in plenty of sodium, and once your body adjusts and water gets re-balanced you will have forgotten about being flat. Of course you could fill out with glycogen and water, but why is this necessary and what does it have to do with muscle loss. All it can do is slow fat loss, which is the goal. This is the equivilant to wondering why your max squat dropped after 12 weeks of dieting. Of course it did, that is part of the sacrifice to get ripped. You get a little weaker and you flatten out. It is part of the dieting process.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Prince returned with the fact that Palumbo has such an incredible track record of successful athletes.

Sure does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Palumbo has criticized Broser's article based on inaccuracies pertaining to human physiologic responses to dietary interventions. Broser contends that without an insulin response, muscle will be lost.

Can you shed some light on Palumbo's methods and offer clarification?

Rather than do a homework essay and give all of the tenants of Dave's diet, here is a link to his Q&A answers at RxMuscle.com: DAVE'S Q&A. Check out the first few entries for his basic diet plans and then read on for tons of clarifications.

From there I will gladly answer any questions and clarify as I can.

A few key points:

Dave uses a meal plan and it is designed to be adjusted by him as a coach. Dont expect to pick this up and use it to perfection with his ability to modify and tweak.
This diet is proven to work for naturals and those using enhancements.
Low intensity cardio every day is integral to the diet.

**Built** · 05-20-2009, 12:38 AM

Okay, I'll start:

Is there a modification of the plan for naturals, or is it the same assisted or not?

How does the training change from the start of the cut to the end of the cut?

DROS · 05-20-2009, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Okay, I'll start:

Is there a modification of the plan for naturals, or is it the same assisted or not?

How does the training change from the start of the cut to the end of the cut?

The plan starts the same with or without drugs. Drugs are not a crutch, they are an enhancement to get you to the goal quicker and maybe better. The modifications for a natural is that you have to diet slower and make more subtle adjustments. You can force an enhanced athlete to take in far lower calories without worrying about muscle loss. In contrast, a natural athlete has to diet for a longer duration and deal with a slower progression of weight loss in order to spare muscle. So the answer is that the diet starts the same, but Dave needs to start a natural athlete further out from the show.

Weight training never changes. Intense, heavy, and relatively short durations (45-60min long weight training sessions).

**Built** · 05-20-2009, 01:14 AM

Does the training volume drop back a bit as the cut progresses? I reduced my own training volume when I did the most successful "real" cut. For instance, for a split that had a 5x5, a 3x8 and a 2-3x12 for a given movement pattern (say, quad-dominant work) I first dropped the 12 rep stuff. Then I reduced the 5x5 to 4x5, then 3x5 - always doing what I could to keep the intensity high and to keep iron on the bar.

Does this sound in any way familiar, or does Mr. Palumbo prefer to lower the weights a bit in order to keep the volume the same throughout?

juggernaut · 05-20-2009, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DROS

The "flat" thing drives me nuts. Someone goes from a bloated 275 to 250 in the first week of the diet and the guy will tell you how flat he is. Stay on the diet for a few weeks, take in plenty of sodium, and once your body adjusts and water gets re-balanced you will have forgotten about being flat. Of course you could fill out with glycogen and water, but why is this necessary and what does it have to do with muscle loss. All it can do is slow fat loss, which is the goal. This is the equivilant to wondering why your max squat dropped after 12 weeks of dieting. Of course it did, that is part of the sacrifice to get ripped. You get a little weaker and you flatten out. It is part of the dieting process.

This particular summary is of great interest to me. Can this happen to anyone who is particularly keto for medical reasons? I have epilepsy and found that a high fat, high protein diet is an outstanding way for me to live. I also compete, and hate the way I feel when adding carbs back into the glycogen loading process. Can this be done without carbing up all the way to the hellweek of a show?

gopro · 05-20-2009, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DROS

Thank you Eric. To clarify for you and everyone, I am Dave's assitant (and sitting at his kitchen table right now). I am very well versed in his diet, supplement, and drug recommendations and have applied his dieting methods to myself and people I advise.

On Dave's behalf, I am sorry if you felt his MD response was personal. Nothing in that Q&A was meant to be more then a debate on diet.

I am here to talk theory, science, and results. Dave is stuck finishing up a lot of content we gathered at the NY Pro and preparing to leave in a couple days for the Jr. USA.

Cool stuff DROS! I don't want to rehash the MD thing, and why I felt he made it personal. I know Dave is a good guy, so I am sure I took it in a way he did not mean it.

I already know everything you will say to combat my thoughts, as Dave has already said them. All I will add is that there ARE researchers and research out there that helps explain why muscle loss can occur in the total absence of carbs for an extended period (as well as solid physiological reasons). However, more than that, I base my opinion on my work with clients over the last 20 years or so.

That said...we both know of Dave's success, and I will not debate that. I will not debate my own either. Nothing in extreme bodybuilding is black and white, and perhaps what is optimal falls somewhere in between what Dave and I suggest.

Anyway, I am now taking my leave and will allow you the floor for the remainder to answer the questions (and you will get a lot, LOL) about Dave's approach.

**dg806** · 05-20-2009, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince

I would argue that, recent science is proving that a calorie is not just a calorie as once thought.

I have the same thoughts on this, but Built seems to think everything Lyle says is like God speaking and she agreed with the statement. Not saying he isn't a very smart man, just that everyone can't always be right about everything.

**Built** · 05-20-2009, 10:22 AM

Hm... That's not quite right. I read the science that he draws from, and the conclusions are based upon sound principals. That being said, show me proof of your assertion and I'll be delighted to change my mind.

Recall, I started with Atkins. Atkins is a strong proponent of the "metabolic advantage" and I believed it - for the first three years I got into this - until I was forced to accept there was no evidence of this metabolic advantage.

I would actually be delighted to read evidence of its existence. It sure as shit FELT like a metabolic advantage.

I can't tell you how much I wish I had it to do over again. I would have tracked calories - not just carbs - and had a DEXA at the very beginning.

**Built** · 05-20-2009, 10:32 AM

"They say we're young and we don't know
And won't find out unt-i-i-il we gr <SMASH!>"

Loved that movie.

**dg806** · 05-20-2009, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

And yes, I know...I do not look anywhere near 40 years old!

40 is the new 20!

juggernaut · 05-20-2009, 10:54 AM

can we get back to topic this is stupid

**dg806** · 05-20-2009, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juggernaut

hey Mod, think you need to go over your thread again, because she has in fact sited SEVERAL other sources. Anyway,

these comments are unnecessary.

So you can make unecessary comments, but I can't? I was just pointing out a fact. Oh, I forgot, you ignore facts

gopro · 05-20-2009, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dg806

40 is the new 20!

Hey, did you read the Iron Man article I wrote with that title?

**dg806** · 05-20-2009, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

Hey, did you read the Iron Man article I wrote with that title?

No, I was never able to get a copy. I looked and nobody around here carried it. Do you have any extra copies left?

**IainDaniel** · 05-20-2009, 11:03 AM

You know what... Jugg or any of the Cronies not contributing to any discussion, drop it. There is a chance for some good learning and the arrogant remarks ruin any chance for an open discussion.

nkira · 05-20-2009, 11:08 AM

I thought you loved movies where things blow up!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

"They say we're young and we don't know
And won't find out unt-i-i-il we gr <SMASH!>"

Loved that movie.

05-19-2009, 03:27 PM	#303
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,113	You bet. I agree completely. Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-19-2009, 03:34 PM	#304
dg806 Guardian of The Homeland Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Charlotte NC Posts: 18,196	Then if its all about calories, why the fight about carbs? 1-Andro Rx Pro-hormone

05-19-2009, 04:50 PM	#307
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,113	I am very much looking forward to reading more about this. Robert, you had mentioned something a while back about a study coming out. Any word? Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-19-2009, 09:14 PM	#312
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 31,699	Some of Lyle's articles on the subject: Hormonal Responses to a Fast-Food Meal Compared with Nutritionally Comparable Meals of Different Composition - Research Review \| BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald Is a Calorie a Calorie? \| BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald Enjoy, Patrick E-Book: Take Charge! Everything You Need To Know To Write Your Own Training Programs Online Consulting/Program Design Reality Based Fitness Podcast Check me out on Twitter! Subscribe to our free monthly newsletter! "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

05-19-2009, 10:48 PM	#313
Prince IronMagLabs Owner Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 37,395 Photos: 356	Author Lyle_McDonald - Articles by Lyle_McDonald on Bodybuilding, Diet, Nutrition and Supplements BOARD SPONSORS: MassNutrition.com - Discount Supplement Superstore IronMagLabs.com - Bodybuilding Nutrition AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders & Supplements CEMProducts.com - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclesProd.com - Steroids, Bodybuilding & Training Blog Maximizer.com - Maximum Strength for Maximum Performance MikeGetsRipped.com - The Original 'Get Ripped' Blog ProteinRoutine.com - Experiments in Healthy Living Follow on Twitter Join Facebook Group Befriend on Myspace

05-20-2009, 12:38 AM	#316
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,113	Okay, I'll start: Is there a modification of the plan for naturals, or is it the same assisted or not? How does the training change from the start of the cut to the end of the cut? Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-20-2009, 01:14 AM	#318
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,113	Does the training volume drop back a bit as the cut progresses? I reduced my own training volume when I did the most successful "real" cut. For instance, for a split that had a 5x5, a 3x8 and a 2-3x12 for a given movement pattern (say, quad-dominant work) I first dropped the 12 rep stuff. Then I reduced the 5x5 to 4x5, then 3x5 - always doing what I could to keep the intensity high and to keep iron on the bar. Does this sound in any way familiar, or does Mr. Palumbo prefer to lower the weights a bit in order to keep the volume the same throughout? Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-20-2009, 10:22 AM	#322
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,113	Hm... That's not quite right. I read the science that he draws from, and the conclusions are based upon sound principals. That being said, show me proof of your assertion and I'll be delighted to change my mind. Recall, I started with Atkins. Atkins is a strong proponent of the "metabolic advantage" and I believed it - for the first three years I got into this - until I was forced to accept there was no evidence of this metabolic advantage. I would actually be delighted to read evidence of its existence. It sure as shit FELT like a metabolic advantage. I can't tell you how much I wish I had it to do over again. I would have tracked calories - not just carbs - and had a DEXA at the very beginning. Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-20-2009, 10:32 AM	#323
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,113	"They say we're young and we don't know And won't find out unt-i-i-il we gr <SMASH!>" Loved that movie. Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-20-2009, 10:54 AM	#325
juggernaut Creator of Chaos Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: NJ Posts: 5,463 Photos: 2	can we get back to topic this is stupid

05-20-2009, 11:03 AM	#329
IainDaniel My Role Model Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 17,548	You know what... Jugg or any of the Cronies not contributing to any discussion, drop it. There is a chance for some good learning and the arrogant remarks ruin any chance for an open discussion. Obstacles don't have to stop you. If you run into a wall, don't turn around and give up. Figure out how to climb it, go through it, or work around it. Michael Jordan

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