Bro vs Keto - battle of the diets

Moondogg · 05-20-2009, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince

no, actually it would be a great real world example!

why wouldn't minimum protein/fat intake be met?

I suppose they could be met, but this isn't what the discussion is about. We're trying to figure out if very low carbs diets cause excessive muscle loss, how did we get onto chocolate bars?

Anybody who considers themsevles to be a bodybuilder and follow the lifestyle will not fill the rest of their calories by eating chocolate bars. They would miss out on too many nutrients and their health would suffer because of it.

**Prince** · 05-20-2009, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moondogg

I suppose they could be met, but this isn't what the discussion is about. We're trying to figure out if very low carbs diets cause excessive muscle loss, how did we get onto chocolate bars?

Anybody who considers themsevles to be a bodybuilder and follow the lifestyle will not fill the rest of their calories by eating chocolate bars. They would miss out on too many nutrients and their health would suffer because of it.

there has been more going on here besides just the keto debate.

really, I don't see why not, if a calorie is just a calorie and they have met their protein and fats requirements, what is wrong with using candy bars? cheap, good tasting and satisfying calories.

Moondogg · 05-20-2009, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince

there has been more going on here besides just the keto debate.

really, I don't see why not, if a calorie is just a calorie and they have met their protein and fats requirements, what is wrong with using candy bars? cheap, good tasting and satisfying calories.

Have a read through this:

What's Inside Chocolate Bars?

**Prince** · 05-20-2009, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moondogg

Have a read through this:

What's Inside Chocolate Bars?

okay, I will change it to a all natural, healthy chocolate, would that be better?

btw and this is not bullshit, straight from Tom Plat's mouth at a seminar, he used to train with IFBB Pro bodybuilder Lee Priest, in the off season Lee used pure chocolate (among other calorie rich foods) to get in his necessary daily calorie requirements, however I don't recall him saying anything about Lee eating the chocolate when preparing for a show.

**P-funk** · 05-20-2009, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moondogg

Have a read through this:

What's Inside Chocolate Bars?

I would like to know what study they got the statement "high fructose corn syrup blocks leptin from reaching the brain" from. that would be an interesting study to read.

patrick

**Built** · 05-20-2009, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

I would like to know what study they got the statement "high fructose corn syrup blocks leptin from reaching the brain" from. that would be an interesting study to read.

patrick

Patrick, I was just writing about this a few weeks ago. See if you can get the full version of this article:

ScienceDirect - Regulatory Peptides : Effects of sucrose, glucose and fructose on peripheral and central appetite signals

Quote:

Effects of sucrose, glucose and fructose on peripheral and central appetite signals
Andreas Lindqvist, a, , Annemie Baelemansa and Charlotte Erlanson-Albertssona
Department of Experimental Medical Science, Lund University, Lund, Sweden

Received 30 October 2007; revised 27 May 2008; accepted 19 June 2008. Available online 26 June 2008.

Abstract
In the Western world, consumption of soft drinks has increased the last three decades and is partly responsible for the epidemic-like increase in obesity. Soft drinks, originally sweetened by sucrose, are now sweetened by other caloric sweeteners, such as fructose. In this study, we investigated the short-term effect of sucrose, glucose or fructose solutions on food intake and body weight in rats, and on peripheral and central appetite signals. Rats received water containing either of the sugars and standard rat chow for two weeks. Rats receiving water alone and standard chow were controls. All rats offered the sugar solutions increased their total caloric intake. The increased caloric intake occurred despite the fact that the rats offered either of the sugar solutions consumed less chow. As a consequence of the increased caloric intake, the sugar-drinking rats had elevated serum levels of free fatty acids, triglycerides and cholesterol. In addition, consuming sugar solutions resulted in increased serum leptin, decreased serum PYY and down-regulated hypothalamic NPY mRNA. Serum ghrelin was increased in rats receiving fructose solution. Moreover, consumption of sucrose or fructose solution resulted in up-regulated hypothalamic CB1 mRNA. Hypothalamic POMC mRNA was down-regulated in rats receiving glucose or fructose.

In conclusion, consumption of glucose, sucrose or fructose solution results in caloric overconsumption and body weight gain through activation of hunger signals and depression of satiety signals as well as activation of reward components. The weight-promoting effect of these sugar solutions may possibly be ameliorated by the down-regulation of NPY mRNA and increased serum leptin.

**Built** · 05-20-2009, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince

if a calorie is just a calorie I would LOVE to see you replace half of your protein and fats with Hershey's candy bars and report back to us in 2 months, by your assertions there would be NO change in your body composition providing that you can control your appetite and keep your calories the same.

<stamps tiny foot in rage>
But I CAN'T perform this experiment!!! I'll get too hungry!!!
<whines like a three year old>

Seriously, not without some crystal meth to control my appetite. As I mentioned above:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

I can't comfortably stay in my maintenance calorie range if I go to a higher-carb diet because I have to pay for it with protein and or fat. Satiety is compromised when I do this.

Besides, please, Robert, show some compassion and at least offer me Lindt.

Hershey's is the worst tasting crap out there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

This is absolutely correct, and would give a real world answer to the "is a calorie a calorie" debate.

Of course if your diet is 50% protein (for example), it will likely not make much difference if the remainder is 35% carbs and 15% fats or vice versa...until we go into the land of low single digit bodyfat. But there are many who need to venture here so...

Eric, I realize you do this for a living, but outside of your highly specialized corner of the industry, there are relatively few who ever bother to do this.

Most of us just want to look good in a bathing suit.

A few of us take it farther, and fewer still take it far enough to make it onstage.

But I hear you - and you won't get an argument from me that eating more carbs might work better for some than for others with regard to satiety, and carbups.

However, even if I could manage my hunger and the ensuing migraines, it would do nothing but give an n=1 deliverable to you, something you have repeatedly said wouldn't count because of my apparently remarkable genetics.

Furthermore, what are you hoping it would reveal - that I keep MORE muscle doing this? Recall, your concern was that I lose too much muscle because of ketosis.

Do you realize you are now arguing that I'd keep MORE muscle if I managed to tolerate cutting-calories on sufficient protein and fat, with the remaining calories coming from chocolate bars?

Moondogg spotted the logic:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moondogg

We're trying to figure out if very low carbs diets cause excessive muscle loss, how did we get onto chocolate bars?

Thanks Moondogg.

gopro · 05-20-2009, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

<stamps tiny foot in rage>
But I CAN'T perform this experiment!!! I'll get too hungry!!!
<whines like a three year old>

Seriously, not without some crystal meth to control my appetite. As I mentioned above:

Besides, please, Robert, show some compassion and at least offer me Lindt.

Hershey's is the worst tasting crap out there.

Eric, I realize you do this for a living, but outside of your highly specialized corner of the industry, there are relatively few who ever bother to do this.

Most of us just want to look good in a bathing suit.

A few of us take it farther, and fewer still take it far enough to make it onstage.

But I hear you - and you won't get an argument from me that eating more carbs might work better for some than for others with regard to satiety, and carbups.

However, even if I could manage my hunger and the ensuing migraines, it would do nothing but give an n=1 deliverable to you, something you have repeatedly said wouldn't count because of my apparently remarkable genetics.

Furthermore, what are you hoping it would reveal - that I keep MORE muscle doing this? Recall, your concern was that I lose too much muscle because of ketosis.

Do you realize you are now arguing that I'd keep MORE muscle if I managed to tolerate cutting-calories on sufficient protein and fat, with the remaining calories coming from chocolate bars?

Moondogg spotted the logic:

Thanks Moondogg.

What I am asserting is quite simple really.

When dieting you must be in a negative caloric balance. If you are a hard training athlete that is required to retain as much muscle mass as possible while losing as much bodyfat as possible you will be able to do this more efficiently with the inclusion of (some) carbs in your diet, especially if timed properly...meal 1, pre-training meal (early on in diet), post training meal. In other words, the eventual fat loss will be the same, but there will be more lean tissue left on the athlete that is utilizing carbs properly.

Also, I am asserting that "a calorie is not a calorie" in the strictest sense. 3000 calories of sweet potato (I won't even go so far as using candy) will bring about a different body composition than 3000 calories of eye of round steak.

It is that simple Built. This conversation was never pointed towards the average sedentary person, but athletes and bodybuilders seeking low and very low bodyfat (10 down to about 3-4%).

**Built** · 05-21-2009, 01:38 AM

See the muscle-loss thing keeps getting me. I don't see it, not with the kind of training I do to cut. Low volume - toward the end, my leg workouts are 3x5, 3x8 agonist, 3x8 antagonist and my uppers are 3x5, 3x8 pull and 3x5, 3x8 push. You just don't need all that much carb for this type of training - although you know, I usually do take in carb pre and or post workout.

Not always though. Really depends how hungry I'm feeling. If I'm really hungry, I blow off the carbs and just do more protein and fat - and of course, if I'm doing PSMF, my workouts are 9 sets of 5-8 reps, and that's it. No other training other than some walking.

Now if I kept calories low and did high volume workouts such as your P/RR/S, I'd need to eat more carbs, I'm sure. Higher rep range work, higher volume, you really need the carbs to top up glycogen stores. Different story.

I still think I keep more muscle with low volume workouts than I would on higher carb with higher volume workouts.

What kind of training volume do you use with your female nattys, Eric?

nkira · 05-21-2009, 02:45 AM

Here you go,

Lindt Lindor Milk ones are the BEST!! Love the way they melt in your mouth.....mmmmmm.....

By the end of this thread I hope we get some summary which outlines which diet is good for what, i mean possibly with all the if's & then's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

show some compassion and at least offer me Lindt.

Hershey's is the worst tasting crap out there.

**dg806** · 05-21-2009, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nkira

By the end of this thread I hope we get some summary which outlines which diet is good for what, i mean possibly with all the if's & then's.

I think this is an impossible task. Everyone's body reacts differently to diet and training and what works for one person may not work for the next. You can make generalizations about diet, but I would not venture to specifics. That's why we don't do individualized diets here. We give guidelines and the poster can go from there and dial in what they specifically need.
If you want one on one guiding, you need to contact somone who is willing to work with you. Eric does this.

**dg806** · 05-21-2009, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

With regard to "former fatties", my cursory understanding is that Leptin is involved. Fat cells grow and shrink, but they never leave. Diet down a fatty and leptin drops. When leptin drops, you feel hungry.

When Leptin drops, it is a signal to the body that it is going into starvation mode. When that happens, the body slows or all but stops fat loss. How do you raise leptin levels? You eat alot of Carbs, slow and fast burning kinds.

nkira · 05-21-2009, 10:03 AM

Thanks dg for info, but I am already in Builts group & I am doing very well with her advice.

Thanks again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dg806

I think this is an impossible task. Everyone's body reacts differently to diet and training and what works for one person may not work for the next. You can make generalizations about diet, but I would not venture to specifics. That's why we don't do individualized diets here. We give guidelines and the poster can go from there and dial in what they specifically need.
If you want one on one guiding, you need to contact somone who is willing to work with you. Eric does this.

**Built** · 05-21-2009, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dg806

When Leptin drops, it is a signal to the body that it is going into starvation mode. When that happens, the body slows or all but stops fat loss. How do you raise leptin levels? You eat alot of Carbs, slow and fast burning kinds.

The thing is, in former fatties, we don't get satiety from carbs. We get it from protein and fat. Our postprandial satiety after a protein and fat meal is similar to our former postprandial satiety after a mixed meal when we were fat.

The problem is that the satiety signals are impaired. In obesity, not only is the postprandial satiety due to insulin suppressed (in fact, it may be reversed), with insulin resistance comes leptin resistance. We have HIGH leptin while we're fat. We're ravenous anyway when we eat carbs. It's brutally unfair, but the signals don't respond the way they should. We may have to change the way we eat FOREVER to favour protein and fat in order to maintain the loss - unless we're cool being hungry a lot. Go to a mall sometime. Most aren't.

nkira · 05-21-2009, 10:20 AM

So thats why I can't stop myself after the 1st slice of pizza hut pizza......With chicken or fish or eggs I feel fuller much early.....but with high carbs it's out of my control!!

**Built** · 05-21-2009, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nkira

So thats why I can't stop myself after the 1st slice of pizza hut pizza......With chicken or fish or eggs I feel fuller much early.....but with high carbs it's out of my control!!

It's entirely possible. Do all carbs do this - have you had this experience with foods that don't contain gluten?

**P-funk** · 05-21-2009, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nkira

So thats why I can't stop myself after the 1st slice of pizza hut pizza......With chicken or fish or eggs I feel fuller much early.....but with high carbs it's out of my control!!

The fasting has really helped me with this! I have much better control of portions when I eat stuff like that.

patrick

danzik17 · 05-21-2009, 05:42 PM

It could also just be a trigger food for you. I have the same issue with Olive Garden breadsticks. Doesn't matter if I'm stuffed full, I like the things SO much that I'll just keep going.

nkira · 05-22-2009, 12:00 AM

Not all carbs do that to me only pizza & burgers.....Could it be the refined flour? Here in India pizza n burger mostly maida flour. I don't feel the same thing with whole wheat bread or oats biscuits. There were time when I could finish a whole medium size pizza & top that up with a personal size pizza gulp that down with 500ml coke.......phew I am glad I am in control now.

Whats Maida?---->We get maida (flour) from wheat after the outer layer is removed. Atta is whole wheat flour.
The outer brownish layer is removed from the wheat and the inner white portion is used to make maida flour.
That is the reason whole wheat flour(includes the brown outer layer) is considered healthier than maida flour as it contains fiber which maida flour is missing.
Maida is a refined product of wheat - meaning it is obtained after processing the wheat, which makes it less nutritious. The less a grain or vegetable is processed, the more nutrients it retains.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

It's entirely possible. Do all carbs do this - have you had this experience with foods that don't contain gluten?

Thats possible to, I HAVE to control the pizza eating now too but it's not like old times when I JUST could not stop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by danzik17

It could also just be a trigger food for you. I have the same issue with Olive Garden breadsticks. Doesn't matter if I'm stuffed full, I like the things SO much that I'll just keep going.

jordyb · 07-12-2009, 11:59 PM

Ok now this is an interesting topic, but i think the third image you pasted is fake .... Mannnn that guy would be holding a record of strongest man on earth....

stephenpaul6557 · 07-14-2009, 04:44 PM

Quite interesting! I have heard a few people say that its not safe to go without Carbs. This thread just confirmed what I have been hearing.

**Built** · 07-14-2009, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephenpaul6557

Quite interesting! I have heard a few people say that its not safe to go without Carbs. This thread just confirmed what I have been hearing.

Not "safe"? Howso?

05-21-2009, 01:38 AM	#369
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,064	See the muscle-loss thing keeps getting me. I don't see it, not with the kind of training I do to cut. Low volume - toward the end, my leg workouts are 3x5, 3x8 agonist, 3x8 antagonist and my uppers are 3x5, 3x8 pull and 3x5, 3x8 push. You just don't need all that much carb for this type of training - although you know, I usually do take in carb pre and or post workout. Not always though. Really depends how hungry I'm feeling. If I'm really hungry, I blow off the carbs and just do more protein and fat - and of course, if I'm doing PSMF, my workouts are 9 sets of 5-8 reps, and that's it. No other training other than some walking. Now if I kept calories low and did high volume workouts such as your P/RR/S, I'd need to eat more carbs, I'm sure. Higher rep range work, higher volume, you really need the carbs to top up glycogen stores. Different story. I still think I keep more muscle with low volume workouts than I would on higher carb with higher volume workouts. What kind of training volume do you use with your female nattys, Eric? Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-21-2009, 05:42 PM	#378
danzik17 Gender: MALE Elite Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Connecticut Posts: 3,043	It could also just be a trigger food for you. I have the same issue with Olive Garden breadsticks. Doesn't matter if I'm stuffed full, I like the things SO much that I'll just keep going. Ron Paul 2012 Journal: danzik17's Log - 4-6 Week Strength/Bulk Journal: Sub 10% by April <old>

07-12-2009, 11:59 PM	#380
jordyb Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: australia Posts: 9	Ok now this is an interesting topic, but i think the third image you pasted is fake .... Mannnn that guy would be holding a record of strongest man on earth.... Learn How to relax and concentrate, Physical Techniques to control : BLUSHER's MANUAL

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07-14-2009, 04:44 PM	#381
stephenpaul6557 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 16	Quite interesting! I have heard a few people say that its not safe to go without Carbs. This thread just confirmed what I have been hearing.