Bro vs Keto - battle of the diets

Balin · 05-07-2009, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juggernaut

how low? I measured last contest close to 4%.I was 7% by the end of the following week. But, that was taking a three day break-after that, the carbs and bloating started kicking in and I had to stop. Went back to high protein and high fat and adjusted almost overnight.

Awesome, I hope to get sub 10 at some point in my life, lol

**Prince** · 05-07-2009, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juggernaut

I snickered as I saw thumbing through the pages of MD about 4-6 steroid articles. They ARE needed, however, I dont think the magazine will ever go natty again-were they ever?

yes, they used to be an all natural bodybuilding magazine, some believe one of the main reasons for letting go of Dave Palumbo and John Romano was because they want to go back in the all natural direction.

why do you always post crap when you have very little knowledge of what you're posting about?

**CowPimp** · 05-07-2009, 01:12 PM

I don't really think either approach is ideal at all, honestly. I think both are capable of working. However, as Built said, some people seem to be far better satiated on a ketogenic diet vs a more moderate approach. Furthermore, as a result of this, many people are more likely to succeed on a ketogenic diet because they naturally intake fewer calories WITHOUT having to count calories, which is huge. Most people are not willing to make that time investment.

One could also argue for techniques that don't involve calorie counting on a more moderate approach, and I agree with that. Portion control is a biggie. Nonetheless, in the end, it comes down to whichever approach is more feasible for the person to carry out on a regular basis.

With that said, I cannot stand a ketogenic diet. It doesn't work for me; I couldn't stick to it. I do like the idea behind nutrient timing, and that seems to work well for myself. I'm also experimenting with some carbohydrate cycling right now, which is nutrient timing in a little more macro sense than the purely meal by meal basis on which I used it before. Furthermore, despite all the research, if I don't consume enough carbohydrate, I get HUNGRY. Seriously, fat and protein never satiate me. The only meals that ever satiate me are carbohydrate-rich meals, period, and even that doesn't always work unless it's a shit ton of 'em

Furthermore, I will say that a purely ketogenic diet is not conducive to good performance during anaerobic activity. Sorry to say, but you will have to eat carbohydrate sometimes if you want to maintain performance in the gym, period.

I think Eric said it best at the end of his article. Try out both approaches. Both are quite capable of getting you where you need to be. Whichever one works for you is the bottom line.

Tank316 · 05-07-2009, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince

yes, they used to be an all natural bodybuilding magazine, some believe one of the main reasons for letting go of Dave Palumbo and John Romano was because they want to go back in the all natural direction.

why do you always post crap when you have very little knowledge of what you're posting about?

I'm sure he has some type of formal education Prince, play nice!

juggernaut · 05-07-2009, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince

yes, they used to be an all natural bodybuilding magazine, some believe one of the main reasons for letting go of Dave Palumbo and John Romano was because they want to go back in the all natural direction.

why do you always post crap when you have very little knowledge of what you're posting about?

I asked a real question. I thought it was comical and never saw their magazine in its natural state. I really didnt know this.

juggernaut · 05-07-2009, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tank316

I'm sure he has some type of formal education Prince, play nice!

reading, writing and rithmatic. Got all my bases covered.

**Prince** · 05-07-2009, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juggernaut

I asked a real question. I thought it was comical and never saw their magazine in its natural state. I really didnt know this.

yes, it used to be a pretty good magazine, now its pretty much shit, about 300 pages of supplement ads.

juggernaut · 05-07-2009, 04:19 PM

hence my reason for laughing my ass off.
Quite honestly, MD is one of the worst offenders of tree killers with the thickness of their books.
I didnt mean to post a smartass remark. I'd never do that.....

juggernaut · 05-07-2009, 04:22 PM

From wikipedia...

"
Muscular Development is an American fitness and bodybuilding magazine first published in 1964. It was founded by Bob Hoffman, the owner and founder of the York Barbell Company. Its editor from 1964 to its sale in 1986 was John Grimek. [1] MD, as it's known to many of its readers, was previously owned by Twinlab. In 2001 Twinlab sold Muscular Development to Steve Blechman who then resigned from Twinlab.[2] Muscular Development is also currently published in Romania.[1]
Muscular Development focuses on bodybuilding and nutrition science. Among its current or past contributors are Michael Colgan, John Romano, Dan Duchaine, and Mike Mentzer. It was notable for including an ongoing comic strip, Max Rep: Mr. Astrotitan 2206 by illustrator Lyman Dally in the 90's. Max Rep and Quadra Blu were even once featured on the cover. After the sale of the magazine to Blechman it changed to a more "hard-core" bodybuilding magazine and focused less on fitness..."

gopro · 05-07-2009, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince

Eric, is MD going back to being a "natural" magazine?

No, not at all. They just now have some representation of the natural side of the sport.

gopro · 05-07-2009, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balin

These threads drive me crazy.

The argument, er discussion is flawed in that you are comparing apples to oranges.

The arguments that I see are:

Gopro asserts that ketogenic diets are not optimal for natural body builders to get lean and maintain LBM. He cites 20 years real world experience on himself and natural trainees and gave a study to support this view.

Built and Jug assert that ketosis diets is the best way to get lean and maintain LBM. Both cite anecdotal evidence of why this is true and can produce numerous studies of the general population as to why this works.

And both arguments are probably correct in their analysis depending on the subjects/population they are discussing.

I may be over simplifying or reading too much into this but I think that Gopro's opinion is based on individuals who train for contests who typically start at a 10-12% bf level and diet down to a 5-6% bf level.

I think that Built and Jug are talking about individuals who start out as obese and diet down to the 10% bf range.

In order for this discussion to be more meaningful I think we need to agree or even define the specifics of what we are debating here.

I think you have the best of reading comprehension skills, LOL.

First, my diet approach is LOW CARB, higher fat, higher protein. My diets are never medium or high carb.

Second, I AM speaking specifically about what is OPTIMUM for DIETING BODYBUILDERS whose goal is a COMBINATION of maximum mass and the lowest bodyfat level. This is the only population I am referring to and the only one I have been referring to since the beginning. Keto diets WILL have you lose more muscle tissue than a "timed" low carb approach...especially if you are natural.

For the general population keto plans work quite well.

Moondogg · 05-07-2009, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

I think you have the best of reading comprehension skills, LOL.

First, my diet approach is LOW CARB, higher fat, higher protein. My diets are never medium or high carb.

Second, I AM speaking specifically about what is OPTIMUM for DIETING BODYBUILDERS whose goal is a COMBINATION of maximum mass and the lowest bodyfat level. This is the only population I am referring to and the only one I have been referring to since the beginning. Keto diets WILL have you lose more muscle tissue than a "timed" low carb approach...especially if you are natural.

For the general population keto plans work quite well.

When do you think is the best time to eat the small amount of carbs? Pre and Post workout? Then very low carb the rest of the day?

**Built** · 05-07-2009, 07:23 PM

Eric, I guarantee that you/your clients will hit ketosis while dieting the way you suggest.

It's fine, really, you're SUPPOSED to hit ketosis, it's normal, we should all hit it at least once a day (barring festivals! Burp!).

Why are you so afraid of that word?

RoosterTX · 05-07-2009, 09:18 PM

It's been my experience in life that people fear the following (including but not limited to):

a.) Things they don't understand.
b.) Change. Especially if it challenges the beliefs that comprise their general world view.
c.) SPIDERS AND SHARKS!!!

not that I'm accusing anyone of having these types of fears. I'm just saying.

juggernaut · 05-07-2009, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balin

Awesome, I hope to get sub 10 at some point in my life, lol

Balin, what BF are you at now?

Balin · 05-07-2009, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juggernaut

Balin, what BF are you at now?

When I started the PSMF I was 20-22. I am hoping that by the end of next week I will be around 15% which will be the end of my PSMF run.

The best I have ever done was a 10.9% by a 7 pt caliper method. Just enough to see the top 2 abs.

My goal for the summer is to hang out in maintenance at around 15% and work on my over all conditioning. In the fall I may do a quick PSMF again to get to 12 or so then try to put on some mass to fill out this skin.... its not snapping back like it used to, lol.

Balin · 05-07-2009, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

I think you have the best of reading comprehension skills, LOL.

LOL, thanks man

**Built** · 05-07-2009, 09:57 PM

Change is really a tough one. Especially when you've believed in what you absolutely KNEW for so long. It can be a very tough nut to crack. I know, I've been through it myself - I was SO SURE it was carbs and not calories that kept me fat.

It was, of course, ONLY the calories. But I had a long hard chew on that one before I believed it.

Balin · 05-07-2009, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Change is really a tough one. Especially when you've believed in what you absolutely KNEW for so long. It can be a very tough nut to crack. I know, I've been through it myself - I was SO SURE it was carbs and not calories that kept me fat.

It was, of course, ONLY the calories. But I had a long hard chew on that one before I believed it.

I am with you there, I still suffer from carb phobia... refeeds get me wound up

**Built** · 05-07-2009, 10:08 PM

I think a lot of us got hung up on the words "carbohydrate" and "ketosis" - as if either was magical in it's effect on bodyfat - that is to say, allowing the body to bypass the laws of thermodynamics.

I'm just re-reading the original post:
"impaired gene expression for muscle hypertrophy."

What exactly does that mean in this context?

**Pirate!** · 05-07-2009, 10:40 PM

I graduated top of my class from a national top 3 Nutrition BS program with Sports Nutrition as my focus. I can tell you this without any doubt. Carbs play a very important role for sparing muscle during a natural cut. The right carbs at the right time. The key is manage blood sugar such that the body need not produce much insulin for an extended period of time. This shifts metabolic pathways and gene expresion in various ways I'm too lazy to delve into at this point.

Rember, Glut-4 receptors in muscle open in the absence of insulin with the correct stimuli--physical activity. Carbs can be consumed and utilized with benefit without illiciting an inslulin increse that would thow off the ideal enzmatic balance that promotes leaness. A cheat meal throws the enzymes to hell and ruins a good weeks work.

danzik17 · 05-07-2009, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pirate!

I graduated top of my class from a national top 3 Nutrition BS program with Sports Nutrition as my focus. I can tell you this without any doubt. Carbs play a very important role for sparing muscle during a natural cut. The right carbs at the right time. The key is manage blood sugar such that the body need not produce much insulin for an extended period of time. This shifts metabolic pathways and gene expresion in various ways I'm too lazy to delve into at this point.

Rember, Glut-4 receptors in muscle open in the absence of insulin with the correct stimuli--physical activity. Carbs can be consumed and utilized with benefit without illiciting an inslulin increse that would thow off the ideal enzmatic balance that promotes leaness. A cheat meal throws the enzymes to hell and ruins a good weeks work.

That seems to be vilifying cheat meals though which on a cut are fairly important at certain times, at least from everything that I understand.

Whether or not you want to call them cheat meals or refeeds (in my case they're essentially the same thing), those meals are important to stave off metabolic slowdown by upregulating certain hormones. If I'm incorrect, please feel free to chime in since I'd love to learn more.

Tank316 · 05-07-2009, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Carbs play a very important role for sparing muscle during a natural cut. The right carbs at the right time.

Not speaking for gopro, but I know that this his thought as well.

gopro · 05-07-2009, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Eric, I guarantee that you/your clients will hit ketosis while dieting the way you suggest.

It's fine, really, you're SUPPOSED to hit ketosis, it's normal, we should all hit it at least once a day (barring festivals! Burp!).

Why are you so afraid of that word?

I guarantee that they do not reach ketosis. And, even so...the point is to not remain in ketosis for any extended period. This is where muscle loss will occur. But Built, it is silly to discuss this with you, because you will not change your view anyway...whether it is based on years and years of experience...studies about muscle loss and extremely low carb diets...or both. Thus, I am not going to discuss this with you anymore and am happy to agree to disagree.

DIVINITUS · 05-07-2009, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Change is really a tough one. Especially when you've believed in what you absolutely KNEW for so long. It can be a very tough nut to crack. I know, I've been through it myself - I was SO SURE it was carbs and not calories that kept me fat.

It was, of course, ONLY the calories. But I had a long hard chew on that one before I believed it.

It's funny you bring this up...I was thinking about this subject the other day, since being back here (I haven't been on IM for a couple of years at least) I was surprised to see the almighty calorie is what's most important. I seem to recall the "calorie is not a calorie" belief was pretty highly regarded when I was last a regular member here. It's amazing how much changes, on the science side, in bodybuilding or fitness in general.

gopro · 05-07-2009, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pirate!

I graduated top of my class from a national top 3 Nutrition BS program with Sports Nutrition as my focus. I can tell you this without any doubt. Carbs play a very important role for sparing muscle during a natural cut. The right carbs at the right time. The key is manage blood sugar such that the body need not produce much insulin for an extended period of time. This shifts metabolic pathways and gene expresion in various ways I'm too lazy to delve into at this point.

Rember, Glut-4 receptors in muscle open in the absence of insulin with the correct stimuli--physical activity. Carbs can be consumed and utilized with benefit without illiciting an inslulin increse that would thow off the ideal enzmatic balance that promotes leaness. A cheat meal throws the enzymes to hell and ruins a good weeks work.

Exactly...and also it is the TIMING of carbs that are important as well. First thing in the morning after an overnight fast, as well as immediately after training are the ideal times to intake carbs as the body will be "metabolically set" to partition calories towards muscle tissue.

Again, a textbook or study does not have to show me this, as I have tried every way of dieting with myself and others dozens and dozens of times and have witnessed the results. And when you are talking about bodybuilding competition, even the slightest muscle loss will become evident.

gopro · 05-07-2009, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIVINITUS

It's funny you bring this up...I was thinking about this subject the other day, since being back here (I haven't been on IM for a couple of years at least) I was surprised to see the almighty calorie is what's most important. I seem to recall the "calorie is not a calorie" belief was pretty highly regarded when I was last a regular member here. It's amazing how much changes, on the science side, in bodybuilding or fitness in general.

It is most important according to some here, but not to others, however. A calorie is not a calorie. But, I only mention this to show that there is more than one opinion on this subject....not to get into this neverending debate again

DIVINITUS · 05-07-2009, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

It is most important according to some here, but not to others, however. A calorie is not a calorie. But, I only mention this to show that there is more than one opinion on this subject....not to get into this neverending debate again

Sorry about that...wasn't trying to start something. I must say, it's nice to have the people I and others consider to be "heavyweights" on this site, all contributing to this thread. Gopro, Built, Prince, juggernaut, Cowpimp, Tank...I remember all of your names from a few years ago and it's nice to see a forum with dedication like this. It makes someone like myself respect your opinions while at the same time researching and working even harder to shape my own. To me, this thread is a nice snapshot of all of that...

...forgive the ego stroking, detour taking post. I work nights!!

gopro · 05-07-2009, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIVINITUS

Sorry about that...wasn't trying to start something. I must say, it's nice to have the people I and others consider to be "heavyweights" on this site, all contributing to this thread. Gopro, Built, Prince, juggernaut, Cowpimp, Tank...I remember all of your names from a few years ago and it's nice to see a forum with dedication like this. It makes someone like myself respect your opinions while at the same time researching and working even harder to shape my own. To me, this thread is a nice snapshot of all of that...

...forgive the ego stroking, detour taking post. I work nights!!

No apology necessary at all. I just wanted to point out that opinions on that subject differ quite a bit and is not one-dimensional across the site. Thought it was important to know as you seemed genuinely interested.

**Built** · 05-08-2009, 01:20 AM

You had your buddy rantorcha do cardio on a zero carb day. Wanna explain how he avoids ketosis doing that?

05-07-2009, 01:12 PM	#33
CowPimp Fueled by Testosterone Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 15,615	I don't really think either approach is ideal at all, honestly. I think both are capable of working. However, as Built said, some people seem to be far better satiated on a ketogenic diet vs a more moderate approach. Furthermore, as a result of this, many people are more likely to succeed on a ketogenic diet because they naturally intake fewer calories WITHOUT having to count calories, which is huge. Most people are not willing to make that time investment. One could also argue for techniques that don't involve calorie counting on a more moderate approach, and I agree with that. Portion control is a biggie. Nonetheless, in the end, it comes down to whichever approach is more feasible for the person to carry out on a regular basis. With that said, I cannot stand a ketogenic diet. It doesn't work for me; I couldn't stick to it. I do like the idea behind nutrient timing, and that seems to work well for myself. I'm also experimenting with some carbohydrate cycling right now, which is nutrient timing in a little more macro sense than the purely meal by meal basis on which I used it before. Furthermore, despite all the research, if I don't consume enough carbohydrate, I get HUNGRY. Seriously, fat and protein never satiate me. The only meals that ever satiate me are carbohydrate-rich meals, period, and even that doesn't always work unless it's a shit ton of 'em Furthermore, I will say that a purely ketogenic diet is not conducive to good performance during anaerobic activity. Sorry to say, but you will have to eat carbohydrate sometimes if you want to maintain performance in the gym, period. I think Eric said it best at the end of his article. Try out both approaches. Both are quite capable of getting you where you need to be. Whichever one works for you is the bottom line. The only time it's bad to feel the burn is when you're peeing... Belligerent Bovine badass YouTube Videos

05-07-2009, 07:23 PM	#43
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,109	Eric, I guarantee that you/your clients will hit ketosis while dieting the way you suggest. It's fine, really, you're SUPPOSED to hit ketosis, it's normal, we should all hit it at least once a day (barring festivals! Burp!). Why are you so afraid of that word? Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-07-2009, 09:57 PM	#48
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,109	Change is really a tough one. Especially when you've believed in what you absolutely KNEW for so long. It can be a very tough nut to crack. I know, I've been through it myself - I was SO SURE it was carbs and not calories that kept me fat. It was, of course, ONLY the calories. But I had a long hard chew on that one before I believed it. Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-07-2009, 10:08 PM	#50
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,109	I think a lot of us got hung up on the words "carbohydrate" and "ketosis" - as if either was magical in it's effect on bodyfat - that is to say, allowing the body to bypass the laws of thermodynamics. I'm just re-reading the original post: "impaired gene expression for muscle hypertrophy." What exactly does that mean in this context? Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-07-2009, 10:40 PM	#51
Pirate! Gatekepper Moderator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 6,166	I graduated top of my class from a national top 3 Nutrition BS program with Sports Nutrition as my focus. I can tell you this without any doubt. Carbs play a very important role for sparing muscle during a natural cut. The right carbs at the right time. The key is manage blood sugar such that the body need not produce much insulin for an extended period of time. This shifts metabolic pathways and gene expresion in various ways I'm too lazy to delve into at this point. Rember, Glut-4 receptors in muscle open in the absence of insulin with the correct stimuli--physical activity. Carbs can be consumed and utilized with benefit without illiciting an inslulin increse that would thow off the ideal enzmatic balance that promotes leaness. A cheat meal throws the enzymes to hell and ruins a good weeks work. My 1-Andro RX Journal

05-07-2009, 04:19 PM	#38
juggernaut Creator of Chaos Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: NJ Posts: 5,463 Photos: 2	hence my reason for laughing my ass off. Quite honestly, MD is one of the worst offenders of tree killers with the thickness of their books. I didnt mean to post a smartass remark. I'd never do that.....

05-07-2009, 04:22 PM	#39
juggernaut Creator of Chaos Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: NJ Posts: 5,463 Photos: 2	From wikipedia... " Muscular Development is an American fitness and bodybuilding magazine first published in 1964. It was founded by Bob Hoffman, the owner and founder of the York Barbell Company. Its editor from 1964 to its sale in 1986 was John Grimek. [1] MD, as it's known to many of its readers, was previously owned by Twinlab. In 2001 Twinlab sold Muscular Development to Steve Blechman who then resigned from Twinlab.[2] Muscular Development is also currently published in Romania.[1] Muscular Development focuses on bodybuilding and nutrition science. Among its current or past contributors are Michael Colgan, John Romano, Dan Duchaine, and Mike Mentzer. It was notable for including an ongoing comic strip, Max Rep: Mr. Astrotitan 2206 by illustrator Lyman Dally in the 90's. Max Rep and Quadra Blu were even once featured on the cover. After the sale of the magazine to Blechman it changed to a more "hard-core" bodybuilding magazine and focused less on fitness..."

05-07-2009, 09:18 PM	#44
RoosterTX Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 233	It's been my experience in life that people fear the following (including but not limited to): a.) Things they don't understand. b.) Change. Especially if it challenges the beliefs that comprise their general world view. c.) SPIDERS AND SHARKS!!! not that I'm accusing anyone of having these types of fears. I'm just saying.

05-08-2009, 01:20 AM	#60
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,109	You had your buddy rantorcha do cardio on a zero carb day. Wanna explain how he avoids ketosis doing that? Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

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