Bro vs Keto - battle of the diets

Moondogg · 05-13-2009, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoosterTX

Ridiculous.

Agreed.

**Built** · 05-13-2009, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dg806

So this is why all the ethiopians have so much muscle mass.

It's why they don't die. Remember, said starving Ethiopians didn't start with much muscle mass to begin with.

I don't make this stuff up, dg - a quick google search will show this to you.

Eric, why do you keep asking me to "end this"? You claim your results speak for themselves. Okay, cool. Show me.

**dg806** · 05-13-2009, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

It's why they don't die. Remember, said starving Ethiopians didn't start with much muscle mass to begin with.

I don't make this stuff up, dg - a quick google search will show this to you.

Eric, why do you keep asking me to "end this"? You claim your results speak for themselves. Okay, cool. Show me.

LOL, they die everyday. Point is, you will loose muscle in extended ketosis. If you have none to begin with, you can't loose it can you. To add or keep muscle mass, you have to eat alot of calories, carbs included. You have said it yourself on here many times. I think like the other poster stated, we are comparing apples to oranges. Eric referred to bodybuilders trying to diet for a comp. I agree 100% with him that there is no way in hell that if they did what you are referring to, they would not accomplish much if anything. Now if you are a regular person who cares not if you loose muscle mass, then it will work.

**Built** · 05-13-2009, 07:32 PM

I gained muscle in my first 8 months of ketosis.

gopro · 05-13-2009, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

It's why they don't die. Remember, said starving Ethiopians didn't start with much muscle mass to begin with.

I don't make this stuff up, dg - a quick google search will show this to you.

Eric, why do you keep asking me to "end this"? You claim your results speak for themselves. Okay, cool. Show me.

Yes I do, because it is getting old and is the the point of silliness. I really do not need to prove myself to a moderator of a discussion board. When I was asked for reasoning I gave it and it was dismissed. When I was asked for some studies, I gave them and they were dismissed. So, now I can post a bunch of people I got shredded and what then? You will all of a sudden agree with everything I say? Please, we both know that is not going to happen, so let's stop wasting time and move on. People have enough info to make their own choice about all of this now.

gopro · 05-13-2009, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

I gained muscle in my first 8 months of ketosis.

Do not post up personal experience. It does not count.

Moondogg · 05-13-2009, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

Do not post up personal experience. It does not count.

Wow! Im sorry but you cannot say that Built cant talk about personal experience. Your ENTIRE agrument is based on personal experience and that of those you have trained.

**Built** · 05-13-2009, 08:02 PM

Okay.

<cancels delts, quads, lats>

Listen, Eric, so far I've posted up peer-reviewed journal articles and direct quotes from McDonald's work (which is based upon peer-reviewed research). I've prepped Merkaba, whose pictures are on this site (his avatar is one) and posted up his starting and ending weight, and his results. I posted up my friend, natural bodybuider Steve Holt as a champion competitive bodybuider who used UD2.0 to prep for contests, and I've posed up my own pics. I do at least TRY to back up MY claims.

So far you've made a lot of noise about your 20 years of experience. Surely you have SOME clients you would like to show off! I mean hell, my hairdresser has pix of her clients.

Put it this way - if I were to hire a professional online coach, I'd like something other than "Oh you can trust me, I've done this for 20 years, I don't need to prove anything". Surely you'd need more than this, too!

juggernaut · 05-13-2009, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moondogg

Wow! Im sorry but you cannot say that Built cant talk about personal experience. Your ENTIRE agrument is based on personal experience and that of those you have trained.

**Built** · 05-13-2009, 08:06 PM

It's okay, I canceled my muscular development that I obtained during those first eight months.

I'm a lifelong non-keto dieter now.

juggernaut · 05-13-2009, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

I provided research studies as to why this happens, but what proved it to me is seeing it with my own eyes over and over for the last 20 years.

End scene : )

Sounds like personal conjecture to me...

and what the hell does "End scene

" mean?

juggernaut · 05-13-2009, 08:07 PM

is that like: Seacrest OUT!

**Built** · 05-13-2009, 08:09 PM

I think he just ran out of ways to say he wasn't going to talk about this topic anymore.

gopro · 05-13-2009, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Okay.

<cancels delts, quads, lats>

Listen, Eric, so far I've posted up peer-reviewed journal articles and direct quotes from McDonald's work (which is based upon peer-reviewed research). I've prepped Merkaba, whose pictures are on this site (his avatar is one) and posted up his starting and ending weight, and his results. I posted up my friend, natural bodybuider Steve Holt as a champion competitive bodybuider who used UD2.0 to prep for contests, and I've posed up my own pics. I do at least TRY to back up MY claims.

So far you've made a lot of noise about your 20 years of experience. Surely you have SOME clients you would like to show off! I mean hell, my hairdresser has pix of her clients.

Put it this way - if I were to hire a professional online coach, I'd like something other than "Oh you can trust me, I've done this for 20 years, I don't need to prove anything". Surely you'd need more than this, too!

Exactly...and when a potential client asks me for references and/or pics, he/she will get them (although this is rarely the case anymore)...but like I said, I have nothing to prove to a few people that post on a board. I would be disappointed in myself if I took this any further. The things I have achieved in this industry speaks loudly enough about my knowledge, experience and reputation of which I have worked my ass of for, and earned...and am very proud of AND in which I feel very blessed/grateful for.

On THIS particular topic...yes, GP is out. Glad that something posted with my name has remained so popular. Thanks Prince

gopro · 05-13-2009, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moondogg

Wow! Im sorry but you cannot say that Built cant talk about personal experience. Your ENTIRE agrument is based on personal experience and that of those you have trained.

Wrong...just had to point that out. You are a student...do some research (on what I already posted about)...the role in muscle growth of:

-cortisol
-IGF-1
-myogenin
-akt
-insulin
-carbs

That should give you some answers.

Now, see ya!

**Prince** · 05-13-2009, 08:50 PM

One thing that I will say that I think is impressive is Dave Palumbo can produce 100's of national level and top level IFBB PRO bodybuilders he has trained. He is so well known for his successful contest prep he is one trainer that does NOT have to say a word or say a name because its well known that he is a successful trainer of top pros.

I am not doubting your knowledge or abilities in training and contest prep at all Eric, but I do think its fair if asked to give some names of competitors you trained for a show, even if its just an amateur NPC state show where we can go check some pics of them. I would also think you might want to put these before and after pics on your website.

nkira · 05-14-2009, 08:54 AM

That happens to me too.....it's just addictive!!! But it's a positive addiction

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moondogg

TOO fascinating. There are times where I would rather be reading than spending time with my friends...which is strange.lol

nkira · 05-14-2009, 09:09 AM

Eric, When ever asked for a research, study or before after photos you manage to post a drawn out reply but never post what's actually requested.

If you have trained so many clients, then I don't understand why is it SO hard for you to digg up few pics and just post.Ok, we know you don't go by studies n trials n research but your personal experience, then post some pictures AT LEAST.

Prince, Hope this one doesn't get locked like the other one.

Moondogg · 05-14-2009, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

Wrong...just had to point that out. You are a student...do some research (on what I already posted about)...the role in muscle growth of:

-cortisol
-IGF-1
-myogenin
-akt
-insulin
-carbs

That should give you some answers.

Now, see ya!

What has any of that got to do with using personal experience?

As for the list above, I’m not here to do your work for you. I’ve read the research and know what the facts are and I’m afraid they don’t agree with your take on things. You have had a very hard time backing up any of your claims, with your favourite line being that your 20 years of experience conquers all.....sorry but it doesn’t, at least not here. Any rational person would have posted up a few studies (peer reviewed, not ones you have written yourself) and a couple of before and after shots on the first page of this thread and be done with it. Why didn't you?

You also described how you dieted and trained when you were trying out keto diets. And I think most people came to the conclusion that you were overtraining, so I went and found a good article listing some of the negative effects of overtraining, check it out:

Bodybuilding.com - Eric Broser - Overtrain If You Don't Want To Gain!
Did you see the parts about loss of strength, increased recovery time and muscle loss? Pretty interesting stuff, I sure as hell wouldn’t want to overtrain on a cut.
So you lost more muscle mass than you would have like during keto because your volume was too high for the amount of calories you were taking in. Just thought I would post this, from Lyle's website bodyrecomposition.com:

''Training for these athletes, therefore, must revolve around the same types of training that they are doing for their sport. As noted above, at least some volume of heavy training should be done while dieting to maintain current strength and muscle mass levels. However, research clearly shows that the volume and frequency of training can be cut back rather significantly.

Reductions in both of up to 2/3rds (so total sets and/or days of training can be reduced) are fine but ONLY if the intensity (weight on the bar) is maintained. So an athlete who was doing 6 sets of 3 in the back squat could conceivably cut back to 2 sets of 3 as long as he keeps the weight on the bar the same. If the intensity is cut back, strength and muscle mass will suffer. Again, some volume of heavy work must be kept in.''

And here’s the link if you want to read the full article:

Fat Loss for Athletes: Part 3 | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald

Sorry I haven’t posted the specific study that he is talking about (I have read it but didn’t note done where it was from) but vie got exams at the minute and can’t take too much time away from studying.

I think it’s fair to say that having your clients use the same volume during a cut as they would during a bulk is incorrect, and will hamper their results in the long run. But that’s between you and your client and is none of my concern.

Anyway I’m bored of this thread now, you’ve sucked all the fun out of it.

Have a good day and wish Rantorcha all the best for his upcoming competition.

**Built** · 05-14-2009, 10:28 AM

Great post, Moondog. See, I've read this so many times: while cutting, reduce training volume and keep the iron on the bar!

Marion wrote about Schwarzenegger's experience with it here:
T-Nation.com | Ripped, Rugged, and Dense

And I blogged about it, here: Got Built? » Keeping it going - the evolutionary process of fat loss

It's how I was able to, at the tender age of forty two and having been soft and fat though 20 years of overtraining, finally lean out enough to have the abs you see in my avatar.

Kinda makes me think of this old chestnut:

"The better I train and the better I eat, the better my genetics seem to get!"

**P-funk** · 05-14-2009, 10:38 AM

reducing volume in a period of caloric deficit is critical to preventing over-training.

Training increases tissue breakdown/trauma. During a "diet", we are taking in less calories which limits our ability to recover from high amounts of tissue trauma created by high(er) volumes of training which may potentially lead to over-training. I did a research review on this a few months back. HERE

Patrick

gopro · 05-14-2009, 11:18 AM

I just want you all to know...I love you guys! You are so much fun!

Now, carry on!

nkira · 05-14-2009, 11:24 AM

That's a nice way to back up your claims....as usual....typical Eric..

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

I just want you all to know...I love you guys! You are so much fun!

Now, carry on!

Moondogg · 05-14-2009, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

I just want you all to know...I love you guys! You are so much fun!

Now, carry on!

You can love me as much as you want....

....but I still think you're full of shit.

juggernaut · 05-14-2009, 11:28 AM

Eric, that's an incredibly professional reply to all of the researched information that we've just received. Way to show professional integrity and respect to your peers.

nkira · 05-14-2009, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moondogg

You can love me as much as you want....

....but I still think you're full of shit.

gopro · 05-14-2009, 11:43 AM

Awww, they have formed a little anti-gopro gang! Crap, this is terrible for me. Guess I will have to go back to the drawing board again and start my life over.

Please guys...I posted an article with like 20 article references on this very subject which explains basically everything I have been talking about. You choose to ignore that plus my 20 years of experience and work with hundreds of clients whose main goals are body transformation.

Just lighten up now and either continue the discussion or let it go. Built seems to have all the answers and Moondogg does not want to research hormones and genes which have EVERYTHING to do with why constant-state-keto-diets are detrimental to muscle.

Listen, its your body(ies) not mine, so if you have it all figured out then I am happy for you!

I have said all I need to about this subject and am 100% confident in all of it. Shit, I have no stake in what type of diet works best. Dave Palumbo has a huge stake in keto-diets because that is what his whole supplement line is based on, and it is the diet he gives to EVERY SINGLE client. I am only concerned with what works best, which differs somewhat from person to person. Hell, I even tweak my PRRS and FDFS protocols for each individual based on their specific needs, goals, experience, strengths, weaknesses, etc! Cookie cutter I am not.

Anyway, enjoy. See you around the boards!

gopro · 05-14-2009, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juggernaut

Eric, that's an incredibly professional reply to all of the researched information that we've just received. Way to show professional integrity and respect to your peers.

You are the last person that should use the word respect.

Moondogg · 05-14-2009, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

Awww, they have formed a little anti-bullshit gang! Crap, this is terrible for me. Guess I will have to go back to the drawing board again and start my life over.

There we go, I fixed that for you.

juggernaut · 05-14-2009, 11:46 AM

We all know about your 20 years...

05-13-2009, 07:32 PM	#124
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,109	I gained muscle in my first 8 months of ketosis. Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-13-2009, 08:02 PM	#128
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,109	Okay. <cancels delts, quads, lats> Listen, Eric, so far I've posted up peer-reviewed journal articles and direct quotes from McDonald's work (which is based upon peer-reviewed research). I've prepped Merkaba, whose pictures are on this site (his avatar is one) and posted up his starting and ending weight, and his results. I posted up my friend, natural bodybuider Steve Holt as a champion competitive bodybuider who used UD2.0 to prep for contests, and I've posed up my own pics. I do at least TRY to back up MY claims. So far you've made a lot of noise about your 20 years of experience. Surely you have SOME clients you would like to show off! I mean hell, my hairdresser has pix of her clients. Put it this way - if I were to hire a professional online coach, I'd like something other than "Oh you can trust me, I've done this for 20 years, I don't need to prove anything". Surely you'd need more than this, too! Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-13-2009, 08:06 PM	#130
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,109	It's okay, I canceled my muscular development that I obtained during those first eight months. I'm a lifelong non-keto dieter now. Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-13-2009, 08:09 PM	#133
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,109	I think he just ran out of ways to say he wasn't going to talk about this topic anymore. Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-13-2009, 08:50 PM	#136
Prince IronMagLabs Owner Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 37,393 Photos: 356	One thing that I will say that I think is impressive is Dave Palumbo can produce 100's of national level and top level IFBB PRO bodybuilders he has trained. He is so well known for his successful contest prep he is one trainer that does NOT have to say a word or say a name because its well known that he is a successful trainer of top pros. I am not doubting your knowledge or abilities in training and contest prep at all Eric, but I do think its fair if asked to give some names of competitors you trained for a show, even if its just an amateur NPC state show where we can go check some pics of them. I would also think you might want to put these before and after pics on your website. IronMagLabs 1-ANDRO Rx Pro-Hormone - BUY 2 GET 1 FREE SPECIAL! BOARD SPONSORS: MassNutrition.com - Discount Supplement Superstore AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders CEMProducts.com - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclesProd.com - Steroids, Bodybuilding, Fitness & Training Blog. Maximizer.com - Maximizer Strength for Maximum Performance Befriend on Myspace Follow on Twitter

05-13-2009, 08:07 PM	#132
juggernaut Creator of Chaos Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: NJ Posts: 5,463 Photos: 2	is that like: Seacrest OUT!

05-14-2009, 10:28 AM	#140
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,109	Great post, Moondog. See, I've read this so many times: while cutting, reduce training volume and keep the iron on the bar! Marion wrote about Schwarzenegger's experience with it here: T-Nation.com \| Ripped, Rugged, and Dense And I blogged about it, here: Got Built? » Keeping it going - the evolutionary process of fat loss It's how I was able to, at the tender age of forty two and having been soft and fat though 20 years of overtraining, finally lean out enough to have the abs you see in my avatar. Kinda makes me think of this old chestnut: "The better I train and the better I eat, the better my genetics seem to get!" Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-14-2009, 10:38 AM	#141
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 31,693	reducing volume in a period of caloric deficit is critical to preventing over-training. Training increases tissue breakdown/trauma. During a "diet", we are taking in less calories which limits our ability to recover from high amounts of tissue trauma created by high(er) volumes of training which may potentially lead to over-training. I did a research review on this a few months back. HERE Patrick E-Book: Take Charge! Everything You Need To Know To Write Your Own Training Programs Online Consulting/Program Design Reality Based Fitness Podcast Check me out on Twitter! Subscribe to our free monthly newsletter! "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

05-14-2009, 11:18 AM	#142
gopro NGA/IFPA Pro Bodybuilder Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: GLOBAL! Posts: 10,893	I just want you all to know...I love you guys! You are so much fun! Now, carry on! All American EFX Sponsored Pro Bodybuilder/Internet Marketing Manager P/RR/S DVD and E-Book now available! P/RR/S DVD http://www.home-gym.com/erbrporepras.html P/RR/S E-BOOK html www.X-traordinaryWorkouts.com Monthly columnist for Muscular Development and Ironman magazines. www.prrstraining.com Time to GROW Without Plateau! Personal Training Gopro is available for online personal training, dietary guidance, and contest prep coaching. Send me a PM or e-mail if interested. Thank you.

05-14-2009, 11:28 AM	#145
juggernaut Creator of Chaos Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: NJ Posts: 5,463 Photos: 2	Eric, that's an incredibly professional reply to all of the researched information that we've just received. Way to show professional integrity and respect to your peers.

05-14-2009, 11:43 AM	#147
gopro NGA/IFPA Pro Bodybuilder Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: GLOBAL! Posts: 10,893	Awww, they have formed a little anti-gopro gang! Crap, this is terrible for me. Guess I will have to go back to the drawing board again and start my life over. Please guys...I posted an article with like 20 article references on this very subject which explains basically everything I have been talking about. You choose to ignore that plus my 20 years of experience and work with hundreds of clients whose main goals are body transformation. Just lighten up now and either continue the discussion or let it go. Built seems to have all the answers and Moondogg does not want to research hormones and genes which have EVERYTHING to do with why constant-state-keto-diets are detrimental to muscle. Listen, its your body(ies) not mine, so if you have it all figured out then I am happy for you! I have said all I need to about this subject and am 100% confident in all of it. Shit, I have no stake in what type of diet works best. Dave Palumbo has a huge stake in keto-diets because that is what his whole supplement line is based on, and it is the diet he gives to EVERY SINGLE client. I am only concerned with what works best, which differs somewhat from person to person. Hell, I even tweak my PRRS and FDFS protocols for each individual based on their specific needs, goals, experience, strengths, weaknesses, etc! Cookie cutter I am not. Anyway, enjoy. See you around the boards! All American EFX Sponsored Pro Bodybuilder/Internet Marketing Manager P/RR/S DVD and E-Book now available! P/RR/S DVD http://www.home-gym.com/erbrporepras.html P/RR/S E-BOOK html www.X-traordinaryWorkouts.com Monthly columnist for Muscular Development and Ironman magazines. www.prrstraining.com Time to GROW Without Plateau! Personal Training Gopro is available for online personal training, dietary guidance, and contest prep coaching. Send me a PM or e-mail if interested. Thank you.

05-14-2009, 11:46 AM	#150
juggernaut Creator of Chaos Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: NJ Posts: 5,463 Photos: 2	We all know about your 20 years...

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