Bro vs Keto - battle of the diets

**dg806** · 05-15-2009, 10:57 AM

If there was any bullying going on, it was because he was ganged up on because of his posts. All three disagreed and would not let it die. How did you expect Eric to act? I think he did a great job considering how his opinions and thoughts were questioned and lambasted. As far as Eric's reputation goes, he has worked with some of the biggest names and companies in this industry. How do you think that came about? It surely wasn't from his lack of knowledge or experience.

**dg806** · 05-15-2009, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gazhole

Jumping in late.

Everybody in this thread is FAT.

Discuss.

LMAO, I could not stand to be skinny. I like to have weight to throw around when I need it. Wish I had about 25 more.

danzik17 · 05-15-2009, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gazhole

Jumping in late.

Everybody in this thread is FAT.

Discuss.

Oh screw you buddy. Now I'm depressed.

I'm going to go dig in a gallon of chocolate ice cream AND ITS ALL YOUR FAULT!

**P-funk** · 05-15-2009, 11:30 AM

Look, everyone is trying to make this so darn black and white, and it isn't!

For the record, I am not choosing any side, because we just don't know all there is to know! Just when you think you are correct, science seems to make a fool out of you every time.

Here is what I think so far:

a) Carbs are important (no doubt) and they are protein sparing.

b) Excess calories are needed for hypertrophy

c) It appears that there is potentially some negative effects with regard to anabolism and being in a muscle glycogen depleted state...at least in the short term.

d) In the long term, this is yet to be scene...and, the term "ketosis" implies that the body is burining keto bodies (not eating up muscle necessarily) to help with energy. That is the adaptation that takes place when the diet changes in such a way. Ketone bodies are produced to help with energy demands if it was just muscle that was burning during this time, they would probably call it something else.

Again, things aren't black and white.

It is good to have this research to support some of our contentions for why we do what we do. This is what it means to be evidence based.

patrick

danzik17 · 05-15-2009, 12:02 PM

Fair enough, but it still seems like on a diet like UD 2.0 you get the best of both worlds.

The improved FFA mobilization on a ketogenic diet AND the health/physiological benefits of superglycogenation(is that even a word?) and massive insulin spikes.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Lyle never says that you won't lose muscle during the ketogenic phase of the diet. One of the main points of the massive refeed is to put your body into an anabolic state to rebuild at least a portion of what you have lost muscle wise. That's why it's deemed a recomposition diet and not just a fat loss diet.

**P-funk** · 05-15-2009, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danzik17

Fair enough, but it still seems like on a diet like UD 2.0 you get the best of both worlds.

The improved FFA mobilization on a ketogenic diet AND the health/physiological benefits of superglycogenation(is that even a word?) and massive insulin spikes.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Lyle never says that you won't lose muscle during the ketogenic phase of the diet. One of the main points of the massive refeed is to put your body into an anabolic state to rebuild at least a portion of what you have lost muscle wise. That's why it's deemed a recomposition diet and not just a fat loss diet.

Yes. That is correct.

UD2.0 has nothing to do with any of the studies mentioned above because there is a cycle of carbs going on that will not put you into that overly depleted state as the subjects were in. It has nothing to do with that stuff. Lyle's stuff is heavily researched and he makes good points for doing it and is very evidence based.

patrick

juggernaut · 05-15-2009, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danzik17

Oh screw you buddy. Now I'm depressed.

I'm going to go dig in a gallon of chocolate ice cream AND ITS ALL YOUR FAULT!

FU all! I'm having two gallons of butter ripple!! I hate you Gaz!

juggernaut · 05-15-2009, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dg806

If there was any bullying going on, it was because he was ganged up on because of his posts. All three disagreed and would not let it die. How did you expect Eric to act? I think he did a great job considering how his opinions and thoughts were questioned and lambasted. As far as Eric's reputation goes, he has worked with some of the biggest names and companies in this industry. How do you think that came about? It surely wasn't from his lack of knowledge or experience.

How was he bullied? We asked for proof! He did an incredible job, absolutely, of giving 20 years of conjecture. Absolutely, hands down the best job he could. I applaud anything lasting 20 years.

Most cars cant last that long; but Erics professionalism and warrior-like mentality have served him very well. Awesome job. simply stellar.

nkira · 05-15-2009, 12:25 PM

Nice entry......

I wish you'll get migraine for that one!! Hahahaha.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gazhole

Jumping in late.

Everybody in this thread is FAT.

Discuss.

**P-funk** · 05-15-2009, 12:33 PM

Are there any studies shown the benefits of ketosis to muscle hypertrophy? I have not seen any, but then again, I don't really go looking for them either, so there may be some.

It seems like there are a few arguments going on here, and I am having a hard time keeping it straight as to who is saying what or what people are arguing over in general.

I think I need a cliff notes version of this thread.

patrick

Moondogg · 05-15-2009, 12:51 PM

Main argument:

''You will lose more muscle mass following a keto diet than you will following a diet with higher carb consumption''

**dg806** · 05-15-2009, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moondogg

Main argument:

''You will lose more muscle mass following a keto diet than you will following a diet with higher carb consumption''

I don't see how this is even an arguement. Someone please answer Tank's question and I think you will have the answer to this statement.
HINT:I just ate a whole plate of rice and hibachi chicken with carrots after my workout.

juggernaut · 05-15-2009, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dg806

I don't see how this is even an arguement. Someone please answer Tank's question and I think you will have the answer to this statement.

This should help

Tank316 · 05-15-2009, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juggernaut

This should help

Ha Ha jugg..

Yes, its a loaded question.
I'm not to worried about it btw.
The google thing made my day though!
And enjoy your two gallons of butter ripple.

Tank316 · 05-15-2009, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dg806

I don't see how this is even an arguement. Someone please answer Tank's question and I think you will have the answer to this statement.
HINT:I just ate a whole plate of rice and hibachi chicken with carrots after my workout.

No worries dg...

**P-funk** · 05-15-2009, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dg806

I don't see how this is even an arguement. Someone please answer Tank's question and I think you will have the answer to this statement.
HINT:I just ate a whole plate of rice and hibachi chicken with carrots after my workout.

Um, what you are arguing has very little (nothing really) to do with the original argument of this thread. It is like people are talking about apples and you keep saying ham sandwich....They aren't the same thing.

Patrick

Moondogg · 05-15-2009, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

Um, what you are arguing has very little (nothing really) to do with the original argument of this thread. It is like people are talking about apples and you keep saying ham sandwich....They aren't the same thing.

Patrick

I thought the whole insulin response thing was covered in the threat before this?

**P-funk** · 05-15-2009, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moondogg

I thought the whole insulin response thing was covered in the threat before this?

I don't know if it was or it wasn't but the whole "what do you intake after working out to shuttle nutrients" argument has nothing to do with training in a glycogen depleted state or going into ketosis, or eating carbs to support muscular growth. They are different arguments altogether. One looks at what happens in one single instance at one specific time of the day and the other is looking at long term changes and what adaptations are taking place.

patrick

juggernaut · 05-15-2009, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tank316

Ha Ha jugg..

Yes, its a loaded question.
I'm not to worried about it btw.
The google thing made my day though!
And enjoy your two gallons of butter ripple.

Yes, I know I'm a comical genius...no need for applause.

I didnt ask you to worry...why would you say that to us?

Still dont quite follow why you'd ask this question. Care to define a bit further, so we can shed light?

Tank316 · 05-15-2009, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moondogg

I thought the whole insulin response thing was covered in the threat before this?

If it was I missed it, forgive me.

**dg806** · 05-15-2009, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

Um, what you are arguing has very little (nothing really) to do with the original argument of this thread. It is like people are talking about apples and you keep saying ham sandwich....They aren't the same thing.

Patrick

I said the same thing in this thread already. We are not comparing the same things.
But this statement, "''You will lose more muscle mass following a keto diet than you will following a diet with higher carb consumption'' IMO is true.
I can't gain muscle or weight without a shitload of carbs. Did you not basically say the same thing, that it takes excess calories to build muscle?

**P-funk** · 05-15-2009, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dg806

I said the same thing in this thread already. We are not comparing the same things.
But this statement, "''You will lose more muscle mass following a keto diet than you will following a diet with higher carb consumption'' IMO is true.
I can't gain muscle or weight without a shitload of carbs. Did you not basically say the same thing, that it takes excess calories to build muscle?

Yes, i did say it takes excess calories to build muscle.

But, you made a statement about post workout nutrition which isn't relevant to the particular debate, which is what I didn't understand.

I also asked if anyone knows any studies looking at ketosis and muscle hypertrophy. Because you feel that "in your opinion you will lose muscle mass being in ketosis" is not a good enough answer and the fact that "you have to eat a shitload of carbs to gain muscle or weight" is pretty much worthless. n=1

It is the anecdotal crap that gets people in trouble. I am looking for the evidence to support such claims or the evidence to at least shed some light on were people have come up with their contentions on diet and exercise for muscle growth. That is all.

patrick

juggernaut · 05-15-2009, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

It is the anecdotal crap that gets people in trouble. I am looking for the evidence to support such claims or the evidence to at least shed some light on were people have come up with their contentions on diet and exercise for muscle growth. That is all.

patrick

Amen Patrick.

**Prince** · 05-15-2009, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

I also asked if anyone knows any studies looking at ketosis and muscle hypertrophy. Because you feel that "in your opinion you will lose muscle mass being in ketosis" is not a good enough answer and the fact that "you have to eat a shitload of carbs to gain muscle or weight" is pretty much worthless. n=1

if in ketosis and you're consuming adequate protein and fat I don't see any good reason why there would be muscle hypertrophy due to the lack of carbs.

juggernaut · 05-15-2009, 05:04 PM

especially with the addition of fats.

**dg806** · 05-15-2009, 05:51 PM

ketosis - Doctors Lounge(TM)

MaryAnn RN - Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:33 pm

Low carb (carbohydrate), high protein diets are the latest dieting craze. However, before you jump on the band wagon, you may want to consider a few things:

Low carb (ketogenic) diets deplete the healthy glycogen (the storage form of glucose) stores in your muscles and liver. When you deplete glycogen stores, you also dehydrate, often causing the scale to drop significantly in the first week or two of the diet. This is usually interpreted as fat loss when it's actually mostly from dehydration and muscle loss. By the way, this is one of the reasons that low carb diets are so popular at the moment - there is a quick initial, but deceptive drop in scale weight.

Glycogenesis (formation of glycogen) occurs in the liver and muscles when adequate quantities of carbohydrates are consumed - very little of this happens on a low carb diet. Glycogenolysis (breakdown of glycogen) occurs when glycogen is broken down to form glucose for use as fuel.

Depletion of muscle glycogen causes you to fatigue easily, and makes exercise and movement uncomfortable. Research indicates that muscle fatigue increases in almost direct proportion to the rate of depletion of muscle glycogen. Bottom line is that you don't feel energetic and you exercise and move less (often without realizing it) which is not good for caloric expenditure and basal metabolic rate (metabolism).

Depletion of muscle glycogen leads to muscle atrophy (loss of muscle). This happens because muscle glycogen (broken down to glucose) is the fuel of choice for the muscle during movement. There is always a fuel mix, but without muscle glycogen, the muscle fibers that contract, even at rest to maintain muscle tone, contract less when glycogen is not immediately available in the muscle. Depletion of muscle glycogen also causes you to exercise and move less than normal which leads to muscle loss and the inability to maintain adequate muscle tone.

Also, in the absence of adequate carbohydrate for fuel, the body initially uses protein (muscle) and fat. the initial phase of muscle depletion is rapid, caused by the use of easily accessed muscle protein for direct metabolism or for conversion to glucose (gluconeogenesis) for fuel. Eating excess protein does not prevent this because there is a caloric deficit.

When Insulin levels are chronically too low as they may be in very low carb diets, catabolism (breakdown) of muscle protein increases, and protein synthesis stops.

Loss of muscle causes a decrease in your basal metabolic rate (metabolism). Metabolism happens in the muscle. Less muscle and muscle tone means a slower metabolism which means fewer calories burned 24 hours-a-day.

Some proponents of low carb diets recommend avoiding carbohydrates such as bread, pasta, potatoes, carrots, etc. because of they are high on the glycemic index - causing a sharp rise in Insulin. Certain carbohydrates have always been, and will always be the bad guys: candy, cookies, baked goods with added sugar, sugared drinks, processed / refined white breads, pastas, and rice, and any foods with added sugar. These are not good for health or weight loss. However, carbohydrates such as fruits, vegetables, legumes, whole grain breads and pastas, and brown rice are good for health and weight loss. Just like with proteins and fats, these carbohydrates should be eaten in moderation. Large volumes of any proteins, fats or carbohydrates are not conducive to weight loss and health.

The effect of high glycemic foods is often exaggerated. It's does matter, but to a smaller degree than is often portrayed. Also, the total glycemic effect of foods is influenced by the quantity of that food that you eat at a sitting. Smaller meals have a lower overall glycemic effect. Also, we usually eat several types of food at the same time, thereby reducing the average glycemic index of the meal, if higher glycemic foods are eaten. Also, glycemic index values can be misleading because they are based on a standard 50 grams of carbohydrate consumed. It wouldn't take much candy bar to get that, but it would take four cups of carrots. Do you usually eat four cups of carrots at a meal?

Regular exercisers and active people also are less effected by higher glycemic foods because much of the carbohydrate comsumed is immediately used to replenish glycogen stores in the liver and muscle.
By the way, if you're interested in lowering Insulin levels, there is a great way to do that - exercise and activity.

Much of the weight loss on a low carb, high protein diet, especially in the first few weeks, is actually because of dehydration and muscle loss.

The percentage of people that re-gain the weight they've lost with most methods of weight loss is high, but it's even higher with low carb, high protein diets. This is primarily due to three factors:

1. You have lost muscle. With that comes a slower metabolism which means fewer calories are burned 24 hours-a-day. A loss of muscle during the process of losing weight is almost a guarantee for re-gaining the lost weight, and more.

2. You re-gain the healthy fluid lost because of glycogen depletion.

3. It's difficult to maintain that type of diet long-term.

4. You have not made a change to a long-term healthy lifestyle.

Eating too much fat is just not healthy. I know you've heard of people whose blood levels of Cholesterol and triglycerides have decreased while on a low carb, high protein diet. This often happens with weight loss, but it doesn't continue when you're on a diet high in fat. There are literally reams of research over decades that clearly indicates that an increase in consumption of animal products and/or saturated fat leads to increased incidence of heart disease, Strokes, gall stones, kidney stones, arthritic symptoms, certain cancers, etc. For example, in comparing countries with varying levels of meat consumption, there is a direct relationship between the volume of meat consumption in a country and the incidence of digestive cancers (stomach, intestines, rectal, etc.).

Sorry to be so winded, but wanted to answer all of your questions.

MaryAnn RN

**P-funk** · 05-15-2009, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince

if in ketosis and you're consuming adequate protein and fat I don't see any good reason why there would be muscle hypertrophy due to the lack of carbs.

If you are eating hypercaloric, wouldn't the be adequate energy to have hypertrophy?

I don't know. I am not taking any side. I am merely saying that (a) it isn't as black and white as people are making it out to be and (b) science doesn't seem to have a great answer right now.

I'm just saying. Everyone is bickering in circles and nothing will ever be solved that way.

patrick

**Built** · 05-15-2009, 06:39 PM

dg, I see you get your nutrition information from those pillars of nutritional wisdom: doctors.

I believe it was you that had asked me about a hundred posts ago if I was talking about "prep week" or "precontest diet". I was talking about the actual weeks and months precontest. Hell week isn't a diet - it's a water and glycogen manipulation. If you're still trying to drop fat that last week, you're too fat.

danzik17 · 05-15-2009, 08:54 PM

I also think that the information from that doctor can't apply to us, at least not without further info regarding her study.

Maybe the doctor is assuming that the person is eating a low carb/high protein/high fat diet while sitting on their ass at home because of being "tired". No duh they're going to lose muscle! But it's an entirely different story with an athlete or bodybuilder who maintains a specific exercise regimen that compliments whatever diet that they happen to be running at the time.

Not only that, but the doctor refer' back to weight regained on the diet. Has the doctor considered that the person recomposed? I know this is not the average person's diet, but I haven't lost a single pound on UD2.0, yet I'm (or was before vacation

) leaner than I had ever been. That's the best kind of fat loss and the scale barely moved. According to that doctor, I would have "failed" on the diet.

juggernaut · 05-15-2009, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dg806

Eating too much fat is just not healthy. I know you've heard of people whose blood levels of Cholesterol and triglycerides have decreased while on a low carb, high protein diet. This often happens with weight loss, but it doesn't continue when you're on a diet high in fat.

hmm...I'm extremely high in fat, eat tons of protein and minimal to no carbs on a prolonged, daily basis...My auras have stopped dead in their tracks, my BP is stellar, I got my cholesterol tested at 140; I'm a goddamn miracle of modern science.
What value does this post have dg? Other than you asking an RN for help?

05-15-2009, 10:57 AM	#181
dg806 Guardian of The Homeland Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Charlotte NC Posts: 18,196	If there was any bullying going on, it was because he was ganged up on because of his posts. All three disagreed and would not let it die. How did you expect Eric to act? I think he did a great job considering how his opinions and thoughts were questioned and lambasted. As far as Eric's reputation goes, he has worked with some of the biggest names and companies in this industry. How do you think that came about? It surely wasn't from his lack of knowledge or experience. 1-Andro Rx Pro-hormone

05-15-2009, 11:30 AM	#184
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 31,695	Look, everyone is trying to make this so darn black and white, and it isn't! For the record, I am not choosing any side, because we just don't know all there is to know! Just when you think you are correct, science seems to make a fool out of you every time. Here is what I think so far: a) Carbs are important (no doubt) and they are protein sparing. b) Excess calories are needed for hypertrophy c) It appears that there is potentially some negative effects with regard to anabolism and being in a muscle glycogen depleted state...at least in the short term. d) In the long term, this is yet to be scene...and, the term "ketosis" implies that the body is burining keto bodies (not eating up muscle necessarily) to help with energy. That is the adaptation that takes place when the diet changes in such a way. Ketone bodies are produced to help with energy demands if it was just muscle that was burning during this time, they would probably call it something else. Again, things aren't black and white. It is good to have this research to support some of our contentions for why we do what we do. This is what it means to be evidence based. patrick E-Book: Take Charge! Everything You Need To Know To Write Your Own Training Programs Online Consulting/Program Design Reality Based Fitness Podcast Check me out on Twitter! Subscribe to our free monthly newsletter! "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

05-15-2009, 12:02 PM	#185
danzik17 Gender: MALE Elite Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Connecticut Posts: 3,072	Fair enough, but it still seems like on a diet like UD 2.0 you get the best of both worlds. The improved FFA mobilization on a ketogenic diet AND the health/physiological benefits of superglycogenation(is that even a word?) and massive insulin spikes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Lyle never says that you won't lose muscle during the ketogenic phase of the diet. One of the main points of the massive refeed is to put your body into an anabolic state to rebuild at least a portion of what you have lost muscle wise. That's why it's deemed a recomposition diet and not just a fat loss diet. Ron Paul 2012 Journal: danzik17's Log - 4-6 Week Strength/Bulk Journal: Sub 10% by April <old>

05-15-2009, 12:33 PM	#190
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 31,695	Are there any studies shown the benefits of ketosis to muscle hypertrophy? I have not seen any, but then again, I don't really go looking for them either, so there may be some. It seems like there are a few arguments going on here, and I am having a hard time keeping it straight as to who is saying what or what people are arguing over in general. I think I need a cliff notes version of this thread. patrick E-Book: Take Charge! Everything You Need To Know To Write Your Own Training Programs Online Consulting/Program Design Reality Based Fitness Podcast Check me out on Twitter! Subscribe to our free monthly newsletter! "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

05-15-2009, 05:51 PM	#206
dg806 Guardian of The Homeland Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Charlotte NC Posts: 18,196	ketosis - Doctors Lounge(TM) MaryAnn RN - Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:33 pm Low carb (carbohydrate), high protein diets are the latest dieting craze. However, before you jump on the band wagon, you may want to consider a few things: Low carb (ketogenic) diets deplete the healthy glycogen (the storage form of glucose) stores in your muscles and liver. When you deplete glycogen stores, you also dehydrate, often causing the scale to drop significantly in the first week or two of the diet. This is usually interpreted as fat loss when it's actually mostly from dehydration and muscle loss. By the way, this is one of the reasons that low carb diets are so popular at the moment - there is a quick initial, but deceptive drop in scale weight. Glycogenesis (formation of glycogen) occurs in the liver and muscles when adequate quantities of carbohydrates are consumed - very little of this happens on a low carb diet. Glycogenolysis (breakdown of glycogen) occurs when glycogen is broken down to form glucose for use as fuel. Depletion of muscle glycogen causes you to fatigue easily, and makes exercise and movement uncomfortable. Research indicates that muscle fatigue increases in almost direct proportion to the rate of depletion of muscle glycogen. Bottom line is that you don't feel energetic and you exercise and move less (often without realizing it) which is not good for caloric expenditure and basal metabolic rate (metabolism). Depletion of muscle glycogen leads to muscle atrophy (loss of muscle). This happens because muscle glycogen (broken down to glucose) is the fuel of choice for the muscle during movement. There is always a fuel mix, but without muscle glycogen, the muscle fibers that contract, even at rest to maintain muscle tone, contract less when glycogen is not immediately available in the muscle. Depletion of muscle glycogen also causes you to exercise and move less than normal which leads to muscle loss and the inability to maintain adequate muscle tone. Also, in the absence of adequate carbohydrate for fuel, the body initially uses protein (muscle) and fat. the initial phase of muscle depletion is rapid, caused by the use of easily accessed muscle protein for direct metabolism or for conversion to glucose (gluconeogenesis) for fuel. Eating excess protein does not prevent this because there is a caloric deficit. When Insulin levels are chronically too low as they may be in very low carb diets, catabolism (breakdown) of muscle protein increases, and protein synthesis stops. Loss of muscle causes a decrease in your basal metabolic rate (metabolism). Metabolism happens in the muscle. Less muscle and muscle tone means a slower metabolism which means fewer calories burned 24 hours-a-day. Some proponents of low carb diets recommend avoiding carbohydrates such as bread, pasta, potatoes, carrots, etc. because of they are high on the glycemic index - causing a sharp rise in Insulin. Certain carbohydrates have always been, and will always be the bad guys: candy, cookies, baked goods with added sugar, sugared drinks, processed / refined white breads, pastas, and rice, and any foods with added sugar. These are not good for health or weight loss. However, carbohydrates such as fruits, vegetables, legumes, whole grain breads and pastas, and brown rice are good for health and weight loss. Just like with proteins and fats, these carbohydrates should be eaten in moderation. Large volumes of any proteins, fats or carbohydrates are not conducive to weight loss and health. The effect of high glycemic foods is often exaggerated. It's does matter, but to a smaller degree than is often portrayed. Also, the total glycemic effect of foods is influenced by the quantity of that food that you eat at a sitting. Smaller meals have a lower overall glycemic effect. Also, we usually eat several types of food at the same time, thereby reducing the average glycemic index of the meal, if higher glycemic foods are eaten. Also, glycemic index values can be misleading because they are based on a standard 50 grams of carbohydrate consumed. It wouldn't take much candy bar to get that, but it would take four cups of carrots. Do you usually eat four cups of carrots at a meal? Regular exercisers and active people also are less effected by higher glycemic foods because much of the carbohydrate comsumed is immediately used to replenish glycogen stores in the liver and muscle. By the way, if you're interested in lowering Insulin levels, there is a great way to do that - exercise and activity. Much of the weight loss on a low carb, high protein diet, especially in the first few weeks, is actually because of dehydration and muscle loss. The percentage of people that re-gain the weight they've lost with most methods of weight loss is high, but it's even higher with low carb, high protein diets. This is primarily due to three factors: 1. You have lost muscle. With that comes a slower metabolism which means fewer calories are burned 24 hours-a-day. A loss of muscle during the process of losing weight is almost a guarantee for re-gaining the lost weight, and more. 2. You re-gain the healthy fluid lost because of glycogen depletion. 3. It's difficult to maintain that type of diet long-term. 4. You have not made a change to a long-term healthy lifestyle. Eating too much fat is just not healthy. I know you've heard of people whose blood levels of Cholesterol and triglycerides have decreased while on a low carb, high protein diet. This often happens with weight loss, but it doesn't continue when you're on a diet high in fat. There are literally reams of research over decades that clearly indicates that an increase in consumption of animal products and/or saturated fat leads to increased incidence of heart disease, Strokes, gall stones, kidney stones, arthritic symptoms, certain cancers, etc. For example, in comparing countries with varying levels of meat consumption, there is a direct relationship between the volume of meat consumption in a country and the incidence of digestive cancers (stomach, intestines, rectal, etc.). Sorry to be so winded, but wanted to answer all of your questions. MaryAnn RN 1-Andro Rx Pro-hormone

05-15-2009, 05:04 PM	#205
juggernaut Creator of Chaos Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: NJ Posts: 5,463 Photos: 2	especially with the addition of fats.

05-15-2009, 06:39 PM	#208
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,109	dg, I see you get your nutrition information from those pillars of nutritional wisdom: doctors. I believe it was you that had asked me about a hundred posts ago if I was talking about "prep week" or "precontest diet". I was talking about the actual weeks and months precontest. Hell week isn't a diet - it's a water and glycogen manipulation. If you're still trying to drop fat that last week, you're too fat. Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-15-2009, 08:54 PM	#209
danzik17 Gender: MALE Elite Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Connecticut Posts: 3,072	I also think that the information from that doctor can't apply to us, at least not without further info regarding her study. Maybe the doctor is assuming that the person is eating a low carb/high protein/high fat diet while sitting on their ass at home because of being "tired". No duh they're going to lose muscle! But it's an entirely different story with an athlete or bodybuilder who maintains a specific exercise regimen that compliments whatever diet that they happen to be running at the time. Not only that, but the doctor refer' back to weight regained on the diet. Has the doctor considered that the person recomposed? I know this is not the average person's diet, but I haven't lost a single pound on UD2.0, yet I'm (or was before vacation ) leaner than I had ever been. That's the best kind of fat loss and the scale barely moved. According to that doctor, I would have "failed" on the diet. Ron Paul 2012 Journal: danzik17's Log - 4-6 Week Strength/Bulk Journal: Sub 10% by April <old>

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