Bro vs Keto - battle of the diets

**P-funk** · 05-15-2009, 09:35 PM

Yea, that statement is very vague. I would love to see where she pulled that from. The last people I listen to on nutrition stuff are doctors and nurses. They have no training in that field (exercise too).

patrick

**Built** · 05-15-2009, 09:54 PM

Put it this way dg - how about you go back to your source for training tips - I'm sure they'll be just as helpful.

Yanick · 05-15-2009, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

Yea, that statement is very vague. I would love to see where she pulled that from. The last people I listen to on nutrition stuff are doctors and nurses. They have no training in that field (exercise too).

patrick

Yeah, well...YOU'RE SHORT!

Honestly though, I don't know about MD's but RN's are taught quiet a bit about diet. It is just diet as it relates to the various pathologies and not so much as it relates to exercise/sports performance/body recomposition. There are a few caveats to the above statement, however.

Firstly, as with any profession, there are good and bad (or knowledgeable/willing and stupid/complacent). An RN I know, who just happens to being finishing up an MS degree (so obviously he must know more than me about everything

), once jumped in on a conversation I was having with a friend and teaching him about the importance on taking more than 1g of fish oil/day. So I'm telling him how its just a type of fat, not a drug/medicine, and that I take 8-10g/day, that it aids in everything from cardiovascular health to skin health to nutrient partitioning etc. This douche jumps in and says, "Listen man, do you eat steak?" My friend answers, "Yes." The douche then proceeds to explain that he is getting all the fat he needs by eating steak a couple of times a week. I was floored, I do not have the patience with these types of people anymore so I just sort of drifted away.

Second of all, the diet guidelines that are taught in the schools are the same ones that are taught to nutritionists...aka food pyramid (or the slightly improved version called MyPyramid). Basically the same old carb heavy, low fat crap they have been spewing for a long time, except now they are somewhat better at saying, eat whole/unprocessed carbs, lower saturated fat but keep in the mono/polyunsat's etc. I took a nutrition class in college (taught by an RD) for fun and I was taught all of this atrocious crap, cereal with milk is okay in the morning as long as its skim or semi-skim milk etc. So if the person does not take it upon themselves to stay ahead of the research, and this is the case with many people in every field from the medical to the health industry, they wind up making the whole field look stupid.

I was taught a lot of diet stuff as it relates to surgery (clear, full, soft diet), varying pathologies (the MD dx's celiac disease or PKU but the RN actually sits down and teaches by saying eat this, not that etc), side effects of meds (many diuretics lead to loss of potassium which may cause a fatal electrolyte imbalance, so once again the MD might say have some more potassium, but the RN will sit down and teach the client to have a cup of OJ or a banana or some salt substitute etc).

So we are taught quiet a bit about diets, the problems lies in the fact that many feel they are authorities on everything related to health when they are just taught about diets are they relate to the medical field. Hell when I had to perform a teaching exercise in front of my clinical group about diabetes diets, I went in there with the GI/II/GL stuff, portion control, activity, and importance of monitoring etc. My teacher's jaw dropped because we were taught such basics in class (carbs -> glucose -> rise in blood sugar, signs/symptoms, treatment, complications etc) that she was expecting me to come in stumble through a 5 min thing with the patient and be glad to get it over with, instead I went in there and just killed it. The patient said no one had ever spent the time and explained this stuff to her, all she was ever told was eat less sugar or whatever. The professor even took my GI charts and handed them out to other patients because they were so succinct, to the point and easy to understand.

Oh and this thread is one of the best threads to hit this place in a while. We haven't had a good old debate like this in a while. I say lets keep it going, everyone seems to be behaving and I think we can get into some interesting physiology stuff here.

Moondogg · 05-15-2009, 11:27 PM

Good post.

**P-funk** · 05-15-2009, 11:33 PM

don't encourage him...his head swells.

thanks yan!

patrick

Moondogg · 05-15-2009, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

don't encourage him...his head swells.

thanks yan!

patrick

lol, I had typed 'great post', but then decided that was a bit much.

**Built** · 05-16-2009, 12:21 AM

Yanick, I don't know you but I think I want to.

Great post.

Now - after reading and participating in this thread since its inception, I find myself looking for clarity in the initial argument - that is to say, what is it in particular that we are arguing?

Eric's article, Palumbo's retort and the ensuing debate hinges upon some rather strict physiological definitions, but the diet that underlies these definitions so far remains rather vague.

We have established that ketosis is normal in healthy humans, and in fact its absence can be thought of as a diseased state. Surely a high-carb diet is not thought of as a ketogenic diet, so we'll relieve ourselves of this pedantic view and proceed.

We have also established that we are specifically talking about "cutting" diets, that is to say, the deliberate manipulation of diet and training so as to ensure as much fat loss and as little muscle loss as possible.

There are a plethora of diets which can be thought of - for this purpose - as ketogenic:

Complete starvation
Ketogenic epilepsy diet - VERY high in fat, modest protein, very low carb, used in children and some adults to reduce or eliminate epileptic seizures
Atkins induction - not a high protein diet as much as a high fat diet, but not as high as the one used to fight epilepsy
Protein sparing modified fast, Lyle's style (ie his book "rapid fat loss"), with macronutrient mix and refeeds set at specific intervals according to bodyfat, gender and activity level and type
CKD AKA cyclic ketogenic diet, wherein most days are in ketosis, but a period of hours or days is spent on a refeed of low fat, moderate protein and very high starchy carbs and glucose.
UD2.0, Lyle's love child from his affair with Dan Duschaine's BodyOpus
TKD AKA targeted ketogenic diet - where the only starchy carbs consumed are in the meal before and or immediately after a lifting workout

Eric, in the spirit of fairness and good sportsmanship, I am offering you the opportunity to clarify for me, for us, for this thread - hell, for all humanity (I couldn't resist going over the top, I need an echo chamber!) which of these do you have in mind when you assert that ketogenic diets are not optimal for fat loss for unassisted athletes?

If I've missed one, tell it to me and I'll tuck it into the list.

If we're going to argue something, let's at least know exactly what it is so we can argue well.

**P-funk** · 05-16-2009, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Yanick, I don't know you but I think I want to.

Yanick is one of my good friends and one of my old training partners from NYC. He is a regular poster on my forum and we talk about the finer things in life like mitchondrial density, reciprocal inhibition, and phosphofructokinase. Truly exciting!

Patrick

**Built** · 05-16-2009, 12:50 AM

Gaaah I love me a man who knows his way around mitochodrial density... <swoons>

m11 · 05-16-2009, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanick

I took a nutrition class in college (taught by an RD) for fun and I was taught all of this atrocious crap, cereal with milk is okay in the morning as long as its skim or semi-skim milk etc. So if the person does not take it upon themselves to stay ahead of the research, and this is the case with many people in every field from the medical to the health industry, they wind up making the whole field look stupid.

I'd just like to add to this. I'm about to get my R.D credential. My undergrad is from the University of Florida and would like to mention that we learn very little that would qualify us to give nutrition advice. We spend very little on actual nutrition education, and the time we do is based on MyPyramid type stuff. Aside from my Nutrition major, and despite specializing in Nutritional Science, almost everything I learned was from hours of personal research. If I do spend any time as an R.D, I couldn't imagine taking the information that we are learning at school and passing it along to clients.

**Built** · 05-16-2009, 05:48 AM

Okay, that's frightening.

I had a girlfriend of mine set me up with a diet back in my "fat jogger" days. Low fat, frequent mini-meals, high carb, low protein. I've never felt like such shit in all my life - while dieting my way UP to 170 lbs and jogging 10k 3x a week with her. She was a stick. Her secret? She didn't follow her own advice. Oh and she's bulimic.

juggernaut · 05-16-2009, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Okay, that's frightening.

I had a girlfriend of mine set me up with a diet back in my "fat jogger" days. Low fat, frequent mini-meals, high carb, low protein. I've never felt like such shit in all my life - while dieting my way UP to 170 lbs and jogging 10k 3x a week with her. She was a stick. Her secret? She didn't follow her own advice. Oh and she's bulimic.

Same here; I took up jogging, had a high carb/low fat diet-as recommended by a doctor, ballooned up to 300 lbs, also felt like lethargic shit.
Also, as a side note; I have a 54 year old cardiologist in my gym who drinks Muscle Milk during a workout, gets his routines from M&F, eats donut every morning to "carbup" before a workout...and just the other day, he asked me to write out a diet and compare to what he has been following in M&F. I took Builts advice and registered him online to fitday. I have yet to see one iota of healthy food go into his system.

And I am going to take advice about my heart-but NOT diet. Most Drs, it seems, know shit about diet.

Yanick · 05-16-2009, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moondogg

Good post.

I try to contribute as much as I can. I haven't really read about nutrition, specifically, in so long (its been a few years now) that I don't feel qualified to argue with the big minds because research changes things so frequently that you really need to stay on top of your game or you begin to look foolish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Yanick, I don't know you but I think I want to.

Well I like horseback rides, classic rock and long walks on the beach on a breezy summer's eve. Oh and I like what Pat stated on the bottom, plus Metallica blaring in my headphones while I crush a 195lb power clean and dump it from my shoulders to scare the shit out of all the cardio bunnies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by P-funk

Yanick is one of my good friends and one of my old training partners from NYC. He is a regular poster on my forum and we talk about the finer things in life like mitchondrial density, reciprocal inhibition, and phosphofructokinase. Truly exciting!

Yeah dude and my girl hates you. Says I'd rather read/write on the forum than spend time with her lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by m11

I'd just like to add to this. I'm about to get my R.D credential. My undergrad is from the University of Florida and would like to mention that we learn very little that would qualify us to give nutrition advice. We spend very little on actual nutrition education, and the time we do is based on MyPyramid type stuff. Aside from my Nutrition major, and despite specializing in Nutritional Science, almost everything I learned was from hours of personal research. If I do spend any time as an R.D, I couldn't imagine taking the information that we are learning at school and passing it along to clients.

Its truly a shame that they pass this type of information off as relevant to the general public. It was fun to get questions wrong on the exams, then bring in research to prove (or atleast shed light on the fact that there is plenty of research going the other way) and get the professor to give me the points. It became so that as soon as I would walk up to her, she would just give me the points because she knew I would make her read like 5-10 abstracts the next day lol.

juggernaut · 05-16-2009, 10:11 AM

funny fuck!

nkira · 05-17-2009, 06:41 AM

....Good one. So you like Nothing Else Matters when your sober?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanick

Metallica blaring in my headphones while I crush a 195lb power clean and dump it from my shoulders to scare the shit out of all the cardio bunnies.

juggernaut · 05-17-2009, 12:13 PM

I gotta blast Master of Puppets when I am hitting my peak...people look at me like I am insane.

nkira · 05-17-2009, 12:30 PM

I like linkin park or sometimes evanescence - My Last Breath (Only the blasty guitar part)

gopro · 05-17-2009, 04:30 PM

Hey ya'll...I have not read anything in this thread since I left, but I hope your discussion is going well.

Anyway, just found this little video interesting (but not suprising)...Evan Centopani, who just won the NY Pro yesterday, was once a client of Dave Palumbo (Mr. Keto), but decided to drop him as a coach because he felt the diet was leaving him in good condition, but flat and small. That it was holding him back from his potential. Through inside sources I used to hear all the time that even WHILE working with Dave, Evan would sneak some carbs into his diet (secretly) because he always felt like he was burning away muscle without them. And this is a guy who obviously uses a ton of anabolics and other drugs (as he is an IFBB pro).

Anyway, it just reflects back to exactly what I have said in this thread. Here is a bit of the interview in case you want to hear about it from HIS mouth (and I know he was just to be nice about it...I know the real story from Robbie over at MD).

Muscular Development Bodybuilding Videos - Evan Centopani - Road to the New York Pro - Words from the Heart

P.S. He is now working with Oscar Arden who uses a good amount of carbs in his diets. Oh, and Evan was fuller than ever last night and hard as rock!

juggernaut · 05-17-2009, 04:44 PM

And again, you gave personal opinion but no true proof.
BFD you gave us an interview...last time I checked, people like to lie on interviews. So how do we know what he is saying is true? You say from inside resources...Woah...well, lets stop the debate, Eric Borser has inside resources + you know the real story. Damn good call. LEts call it a night.

By the way, didnt you say that you were through with this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

Hey ya'll...I have not read anything in this thread since I left, but I hope your discussion is going well.

Anyway, just found this little video interesting (but not suprising)...Evan Centopani, who just won the NY Pro yesterday, was once a client of Dave Palumbo (Mr. Keto), but decided to drop him as a coach because he felt the diet was leaving him in good condition, but flat and small. That it was holding him back from his potential. Through inside sources I used to hear all the time that even WHILE working with Dave, Evan would sneak some carbs into his diet (secretly) because he always felt like he was burning away muscle without them. And this is a guy who obviously uses a ton of anabolics and other drugs (as he is an IFBB pro).

Anyway, it just reflects back to exactly what I have said in this thread. Here is a bit of the interview in case you want to hear about it from HIS mouth (and I know he was just to be nice about it...I know the real story from Robbie over at MD).

Muscular Development Bodybuilding Videos - Evan Centopani - Road to the New York Pro - Words from the Heart

P.S. He is now working with Oscar Arden who uses a good amount of carbs in his diets. Oh, and Evan was fuller than ever last night and hard as rock!

**Built** · 05-17-2009, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

Hey ya'll...I have not read anything in this thread since I left, but I hope your discussion is going well.

It is.

I requested clarification:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Yanick, I don't know you but I think I want to.

Great post.

Now - after reading and participating in this thread since its inception, I find myself looking for clarity in the initial argument - that is to say, what is it in particular that we are arguing?

Eric's article, Palumbo's retort and the ensuing debate hinges upon some rather strict physiological definitions, but the diet that underlies these definitions so far remains rather vague.

We have established that ketosis is normal in healthy humans, and in fact its absence can be thought of as a diseased state. Surely a high-carb diet is not thought of as a ketogenic diet, so we'll relieve ourselves of this pedantic view and proceed.

We have also established that we are specifically talking about "cutting" diets, that is to say, the deliberate manipulation of diet and training so as to ensure as much fat loss and as little muscle loss as possible.

There are a plethora of diets which can be thought of - for this purpose - as ketogenic:

Complete starvation
Ketogenic epilepsy diet - VERY high in fat, modest protein, very low carb, used in children and some adults to reduce or eliminate epileptic seizures
Atkins induction - not a high protein diet as much as a high fat diet, but not as high as the one used to fight epilepsy
Protein sparing modified fast, Lyle's style (ie his book "rapid fat loss"), with macronutrient mix and refeeds set at specific intervals according to bodyfat, gender and activity level and type
CKD AKA cyclic ketogenic diet, wherein most days are in ketosis, but a period of hours or days is spent on a refeed of low fat, moderate protein and very high starchy carbs and glucose.
UD2.0, Lyle's love child from his affair with Dan Duschaine's BodyOpus
TKD AKA targeted ketogenic diet - where the only starchy carbs consumed are in the meal before and or immediately after a lifting workout

Eric, in the spirit of fairness and good sportsmanship, I am offering you the opportunity to clarify for me, for us, for this thread - hell, for all humanity (I couldn't resist going over the top, I need an echo chamber!) which of these do you have in mind when you assert that ketogenic diets are not optimal for fat loss for unassisted athletes?

If I've missed one, tell it to me and I'll tuck it into the list.

If we're going to argue something, let's at least know exactly what it is so we can argue well.

juggernaut · 05-17-2009, 07:19 PM

pretty much sums it all up; but I can be a wiseass here and say that starvation is worse than a high carb diet.

**Built** · 05-17-2009, 07:59 PM

LOL - I wanted to provide an exhaustive list.

Which one do you figure Eric meant - any idea? I can't tell from what he posted in this thread.

BigPapaPump68 · 05-17-2009, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

Hey ya'll...I have not read anything in this thread since I left, but I hope your discussion is going well.

Anyway, just found this little video interesting (but not suprising)...Evan Centopani, who just won the NY Pro yesterday, was once a client of Dave Palumbo (Mr. Keto), but decided to drop him as a coach because he felt the diet was leaving him in good condition, but flat and small. That it was holding him back from his potential. Through inside sources I used to hear all the time that even WHILE working with Dave, Evan would sneak some carbs into his diet (secretly) because he always felt like he was burning away muscle without them. And this is a guy who obviously uses a ton of anabolics and other drugs (as he is an IFBB pro).

Anyway, it just reflects back to exactly what I have said in this thread. Here is a bit of the interview in case you want to hear about it from HIS mouth (and I know he was just to be nice about it...I know the real story from Robbie over at MD).

Muscular Development Bodybuilding Videos - Evan Centopani - Road to the New York Pro - Words from the Heart

P.S. He is now working with Oscar Arden who uses a good amount of carbs in his diets. Oh, and Evan was fuller than ever last night and hard as rock!

I didn't read this whole thread, but I can tell you from my own personal experience (I used steroids for years) that even when on an extreme cut, I had to eat atleast 35-45 grams of carbs because I felt that I was losing a lot of my lean muscle mass that I had put on.

There is a video that I will try finding that has Rob Cicherillo, and I can't remember what IFBB pro bodybuilder he was interviewing with after he got done training. But anyway that guy was 1 week out, and he said that he had to eat carbs in order for his muscles to not look flat during the competition, or something a long those lines. It was last year when I saw the video on BB.com, I'll find the video, and post it up.

**Built** · 05-17-2009, 08:29 PM

See, 35-45g carbs is still very much a keto diet. That's why I want clarification.

juggernaut · 05-17-2009, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

LOL - I wanted to provide an exhaustive list.

Which one do you figure Eric meant - any idea? I can't tell from what he posted in this thread.

i dunno...something about 20 years and a refusal to post photos or names on who he has trained. Its really interesting that Dante (creator of DoggCrapp training) posted an entire paragraph of people that he has trained on a site and yet, eric refuses to cooperate. Why?

**Built** · 05-17-2009, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juggernaut

i dunno...something about 20 years and a refusal to post photos or names on who he has trained. Its really interesting that Dante (creator of DoggCrapp training) posted an entire paragraph of people that he has trained on a site and yet, eric refuses to cooperate. Why?

Now, now, it may be that he's not so sure anymore.

You got that doggcrapp link in your journal - post it up, I'll give it a read.

juggernaut · 05-17-2009, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Now, now, it may be that he's not so sure anymore.

You got that doggcrapp link in your journal - post it up, I'll give it a read.

got quite a few; take a looksie...plenty of enticing information about it.

gopro · 05-17-2009, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juggernaut

And again, you gave personal opinion but no true proof.
BFD you gave us an interview...last time I checked, people like to lie on interviews. So how do we know what he is saying is true? You say from inside resources...Woah...well, lets stop the debate, Eric Borser has inside resources + you know the real story. Damn good call. LEts call it a night.

By the way, didnt you say that you were through with this?

Hello my friend! Yes, I am done with this...as in, I have nothing else to say or add. However, I added this interview because it is interesting that even some DRUG-USING bodybuilders have trouble with a keto diet and feel they lose muscle DESPITE the inclusion of steroids, GH, IGF-1, clen, etc.

As far as knowing what he is saying is true AND having inside resources, what you must accept and understand is that I am in a position in this industry that I regularly speak with other pro bodybuilders, supplement company owners, top nutritionists, magazine owners, writers, etc. I speak to Flex Wheeler almost daily and he is so dialed in to what is going on that he is like a human gossip column! You would also be very suprised to know what people like Gregg Valentino have told me about what goes on. As far as Evan specifically I know people that are extremely close to him, and have spoken with him myself.

So, that is what I mean when I say "on the inside."

gopro · 05-18-2009, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

It is.

I requested clarification:

I am sorry Built, I did not see this until now as I have stopped reading this thread...but came back to see if anyone watched the EC video.

What do I mean? Well, this thread was about me and Dave Palumbo, and OUR specific argument. Thus, it is HIS diet that I am talking about, which is basically medium to high protein, zero starches, small amounts of green vegetables, and high in fats, mostly from salmon, macadamia nut oil, natural PB, and what occurs naturally in meats, etc.

Dave does allow one cheat meal per week that can be pretty much all the carbs you want for one sitting.

Hope that clarifies.

**Built** · 05-18-2009, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

I am sorry Built, I did not see this until now as I have stopped reading this thread...but came back to see if anyone watched the EC video.

What do I mean? Well, this thread was about me and Dave Palumbo, and OUR specific argument. Thus, it is HIS diet that I am talking about, which is basically medium to high protein, zero starches, small amounts of green vegetables, and high in fats, mostly from salmon, macadamia nut oil, natural PB, and what occurs naturally in meats, etc.

Dave does allow one cheat meal per week that can be pretty much all the carbs you want for one sitting.

Hope that clarifies.

Thank you, that helps actually. It does leave me with more questions - would you have a link to something that summarizes this plan and how he integrates it with training, how long he runs it and so on?

Your approach is to cycle periods of higher and lower carbs I think, right? How high and how low - or am I on the wrong track here?

05-15-2009, 09:35 PM	#211
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 31,699	Yea, that statement is very vague. I would love to see where she pulled that from. The last people I listen to on nutrition stuff are doctors and nurses. They have no training in that field (exercise too). patrick E-Book: Take Charge! Everything You Need To Know To Write Your Own Training Programs Online Consulting/Program Design Reality Based Fitness Podcast Check me out on Twitter! Subscribe to our free monthly newsletter! "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

05-15-2009, 09:54 PM	#212
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,113	Put it this way dg - how about you go back to your source for training tips - I'm sure they'll be just as helpful. Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-15-2009, 11:33 PM	#215
P-funk Patrick Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 31,699	don't encourage him...his head swells. thanks yan! patrick E-Book: Take Charge! Everything You Need To Know To Write Your Own Training Programs Online Consulting/Program Design Reality Based Fitness Podcast Check me out on Twitter! Subscribe to our free monthly newsletter! "In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few." -Buddha's Little Instruction Book

05-16-2009, 12:21 AM	#217
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,113	Yanick, I don't know you but I think I want to. Great post. Now - after reading and participating in this thread since its inception, I find myself looking for clarity in the initial argument - that is to say, what is it in particular that we are arguing? Eric's article, Palumbo's retort and the ensuing debate hinges upon some rather strict physiological definitions, but the diet that underlies these definitions so far remains rather vague. We have established that ketosis is normal in healthy humans, and in fact its absence can be thought of as a diseased state. Surely a high-carb diet is not thought of as a ketogenic diet, so we'll relieve ourselves of this pedantic view and proceed. We have also established that we are specifically talking about "cutting" diets, that is to say, the deliberate manipulation of diet and training so as to ensure as much fat loss and as little muscle loss as possible. There are a plethora of diets which can be thought of - for this purpose - as ketogenic: Complete starvation Ketogenic epilepsy diet - VERY high in fat, modest protein, very low carb, used in children and some adults to reduce or eliminate epileptic seizures Atkins induction - not a high protein diet as much as a high fat diet, but not as high as the one used to fight epilepsy Protein sparing modified fast, Lyle's style (ie his book "rapid fat loss"), with macronutrient mix and refeeds set at specific intervals according to bodyfat, gender and activity level and type CKD AKA cyclic ketogenic diet, wherein most days are in ketosis, but a period of hours or days is spent on a refeed of low fat, moderate protein and very high starchy carbs and glucose. UD2.0, Lyle's love child from his affair with Dan Duschaine's BodyOpus TKD AKA targeted ketogenic diet - where the only starchy carbs consumed are in the meal before and or immediately after a lifting workout Eric, in the spirit of fairness and good sportsmanship, I am offering you the opportunity to clarify for me, for us, for this thread - hell, for all humanity (I couldn't resist going over the top, I need an echo chamber!) which of these do you have in mind when you assert that ketogenic diets are not optimal for fat loss for unassisted athletes? If I've missed one, tell it to me and I'll tuck it into the list. If we're going to argue something, let's at least know exactly what it is so we can argue well. Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-16-2009, 12:50 AM	#219
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,113	Gaaah I love me a man who knows his way around mitochodrial density... <swoons> Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-16-2009, 05:48 AM	#221
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,113	Okay, that's frightening. I had a girlfriend of mine set me up with a diet back in my "fat jogger" days. Low fat, frequent mini-meals, high carb, low protein. I've never felt like such shit in all my life - while dieting my way UP to 170 lbs and jogging 10k 3x a week with her. She was a stick. Her secret? She didn't follow her own advice. Oh and she's bulimic. Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-16-2009, 10:11 AM	#224
juggernaut Creator of Chaos Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: NJ Posts: 5,463 Photos: 2	funny fuck!

05-17-2009, 12:13 PM	#226
juggernaut Creator of Chaos Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: NJ Posts: 5,463 Photos: 2	I gotta blast Master of Puppets when I am hitting my peak...people look at me like I am insane.

05-17-2009, 04:30 PM	#228
gopro NGA/IFPA Pro Bodybuilder Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: GLOBAL! Posts: 10,893	Hey ya'll...I have not read anything in this thread since I left, but I hope your discussion is going well. Anyway, just found this little video interesting (but not suprising)...Evan Centopani, who just won the NY Pro yesterday, was once a client of Dave Palumbo (Mr. Keto), but decided to drop him as a coach because he felt the diet was leaving him in good condition, but flat and small. That it was holding him back from his potential. Through inside sources I used to hear all the time that even WHILE working with Dave, Evan would sneak some carbs into his diet (secretly) because he always felt like he was burning away muscle without them. And this is a guy who obviously uses a ton of anabolics and other drugs (as he is an IFBB pro). Anyway, it just reflects back to exactly what I have said in this thread. Here is a bit of the interview in case you want to hear about it from HIS mouth (and I know he was just to be nice about it...I know the real story from Robbie over at MD). Muscular Development Bodybuilding Videos - Evan Centopani - Road to the New York Pro - Words from the Heart P.S. He is now working with Oscar Arden who uses a good amount of carbs in his diets. Oh, and Evan was fuller than ever last night and hard as rock! All American EFX Sponsored Pro Bodybuilder/Internet Marketing Manager P/RR/S DVD and E-Book now available! P/RR/S DVD http://www.home-gym.com/erbrporepras.html P/RR/S E-BOOK html www.X-traordinaryWorkouts.com Monthly columnist for Muscular Development and Ironman magazines. www.prrstraining.com Time to GROW Without Plateau! Personal Training Gopro is available for online personal training, dietary guidance, and contest prep coaching. Send me a PM or e-mail if interested. Thank you.

05-17-2009, 07:19 PM	#231
juggernaut Creator of Chaos Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: NJ Posts: 5,463 Photos: 2	pretty much sums it all up; but I can be a wiseass here and say that starvation is worse than a high carb diet.

05-17-2009, 07:59 PM	#232
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,113	LOL - I wanted to provide an exhaustive list. Which one do you figure Eric meant - any idea? I can't tell from what he posted in this thread. Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-17-2009, 08:29 PM	#234
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,113	See, 35-45g carbs is still very much a keto diet. That's why I want clarification. Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

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