Bro vs Keto - battle of the diets

juggernaut · 05-18-2009, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Your approach is to cycle periods of higher and lower carbs I think, right? How high and how low - or am I on the wrong track here?

How UD2-ish of Eric to have that thinking.

juggernaut · 05-18-2009, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

As far as knowing what he is saying is true AND having inside resources, what you must accept and understand is that I am in a position in this industry that I regularly speak with other pro bodybuilders, supplement company owners, top nutritionists, magazine owners, writers, etc. I speak to Flex Wheeler almost daily and he is so dialed in to what is going on that he is like a human gossip column! You would also be very suprised to know what people like Gregg Valentino have told me about what goes on. As far as Evan specifically I know people that are extremely close to him, and have spoken with him myself.

So, that is what I mean when I say "on the inside."

Oh, so you're a name-throwing gossip columnist. Ok, got it.

gopro · 05-18-2009, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juggernaut

Oh, so you're a name-throwing gossip columnist. Ok, got it.

Dude, seriously, what is your problem? You have issues bro.

gopro · 05-18-2009, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Thank you, that helps actually. It does leave me with more questions - would you have a link to something that summarizes this plan and how he integrates it with training, how long he runs it and so on?

Your approach is to cycle periods of higher and lower carbs I think, right? How high and how low - or am I on the wrong track here?

Hmmm, there used to be a link on the MD boards, but when he was fired it might have been removed, but I will check. As far as how long he runs it...the entire diet...probably anywhere from 12-24 weeks depending on the initial condition of the athlete. With training I don't know how much control he has, but Dave trains like most bodybuilders do in terms of volume and days.

As for my diet...different for each individual. Progresses from week to week depending on how they look. Carbs higher on training days...lower on off/cardio days. Hard to pinpoint for you exactly because each client is different.

juggernaut · 05-18-2009, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

Dude, seriously, what is your problem? You have issues bro.

I know I have issues. But I dooooont bullshit.

gopro · 05-18-2009, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juggernaut

I know I have issues. But I dooooont bullshit.

And what am I bullshitting about? Even if you think I am wrong about something I am saying, why does that mean I am bullshitting? If you disagree with my training or dieting methodologies that is fine, but it does not mean that I am bullshitting about anything.

Bro, the negativity you continue to spew is only going to come back to you three-fold. That is how the universe works. So, please try and be more peaceful....for your own sake.

juggernaut · 05-18-2009, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

And what am I bullshitting about? Even if you think I am wrong about something I am saying, why does that mean I am bullshitting? If you disagree with my training or dieting methodologies that is fine, but it does not mean that I am bullshitting about anything.

Bro, the negativity you continue to spew is only going to come back to you three-fold. That is how the universe works. So, please try and be more peaceful....for your own sake.

I think that Florida "zen" thing has gone to your head. Bro.

gopro · 05-18-2009, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juggernaut

I think that Florida "zen" thing has gone to your head. Bro.

Sorry bro, just a personal philosophy. Anyway, I really think you should look inward and try and figure out why you have so much hate, jealousy and negativity inside you.

Or, don't and carry on as is. But I promise it will hold you back.

**Built** · 05-18-2009, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

Hmmm, there used to be a link on the MD boards, but when he was fired it might have been removed, but I will check. As far as how long he runs it...the entire diet...probably anywhere from 12-24 weeks depending on the initial condition of the athlete. With training I don't know how much control he has, but Dave trains like most bodybuilders do in terms of volume and days.

As for my diet...different for each individual. Progresses from week to week depending on how they look. Carbs higher on training days...lower on off/cardio days. Hard to pinpoint for you exactly because each client is different.

Okay, so Palumbo's approach is to keep people in uninterrupted ketosis for periods of up to 24 weeks, where your approach is to cycle keto and non-keto days, coordinated with your clients' training.

Is that fairly close to the Cole's notes version?

gopro · 05-18-2009, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Okay, so Palumbo's approach is to keep people in uninterrupted ketosis for periods of up to 24 weeks, where your approach is to cycle keto and non-keto days, coordinated with your clients' training.

Is that fairly close to the Cole's notes version?

Where are my keto days? There may be some days of very low carbs towards the end of the diet on off days, but 1) It may not result in ketosis, and 2) Even if it does, it is very temporary.

**Built** · 05-18-2009, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

Where are my keto days? There may be some days of very low carbs towards the end of the diet on off days, but 1) It may not result in ketosis, and 2) Even if it does, it is very temporary.

The low days - especially with high volume - would put anyone training with any kind of intensity into ketosis until the higher carb day. No worries, we've already established that episodic ketosis is not only normal, it's healthy. The body gets VERY efficient at switching fuel tanks the more we do this, I'm sure you've noticed this yourself and in your clients. The first time I deliberately tried to hit ketosis (because I thought it was important) it took me three days. Now I can go into ketosis in a few hours if I want to.

The thing is, you aren't putting clients into ketosis as the goal, right? It's just incidental, if it happens it happens, if it doesn't, it doesn't. It's not the specific objective.

I'm thinking it's kinda like the difference between "occasionally hitting failure" and "always deliberately training to failure". The former just means you're pushing yourself. The latter will bite you in the ass when your CNS craps out to protect you from hitting muscular fatigue.

juggernaut · 05-18-2009, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

I'm thinking it's kinda like the difference between "occasionally hitting failure" and "always deliberately training to failure". The former just means you're pushing yourself. The latter will bite you in the ass when your CNS craps out to protect you from hitting muscular fatigue.

I'm sure one of his clients is about to hit the wall, as I have been reading his ongoing log.
Poor guy is damn near starving, has high volume workouts, minimal protein consumption and hes paying to have that done to him.

**Built** · 05-18-2009, 01:20 PM

Rantorcha is a grown-up and I'm sure nobody's trying to hurt anyone. Running a marathon isn't good for you either, he'll recover.

I'm sure he'll be glad when it's all done and he has the pictures though.

Now, getting back to Palumbo. So he aims for - and keeps - his clients in ketosis with high volume training and no refeeds, for up to 24 weeks at a time?

gopro · 05-18-2009, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

The low days - especially with high volume - would put anyone training with any kind of intensity into ketosis until the higher carb day. No worries, we've already established that episodic ketosis is not only normal, it's healthy. The body gets VERY efficient at switching fuel tanks the more we do this, I'm sure you've noticed this yourself and in your clients. The first time I deliberately tried to hit ketosis (because I thought it was important) it took me three days. Now I can go into ketosis in a few hours if I want to.

The thing is, you aren't putting clients into ketosis as the goal, right? It's just incidental, if it happens it happens, if it doesn't, it doesn't. It's not the specific objective.

I'm thinking it's kinda like the difference between "occasionally hitting failure" and "always deliberately training to failure". The former just means you're pushing yourself. The latter will bite you in the ass when your CNS craps out to protect you from hitting muscular fatigue.

First of all, I do not consider my training high volume. My clients do maybe 18-20 total sets per workout. Many bodybuilders will almost do that many sets for one large body part.

Second, "low days" only occur on non-training days.

Third, THE POINT is that episodic ketosis does not result in muscle loss, by chronic ketosis DOES.

Fourth, just because YOU can reach ketosis so easily does not mean everyone does. It take me DAYS of under 50 grams of carbs to even begin to hit ketosis.

Fifth, no "ketosis" is not normally ever the goal unless I feel it necesasary, safe for that particular client (meaning they have incredible propensity for retaining muscle OR is not a bodybuilder). or is on drugs.

gopro · 05-18-2009, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Rantorcha is a grown-up and I'm sure nobody's trying to hurt anyone. Running a marathon isn't good for you either, he'll recover.

I'm sure he'll be glad when it's all done and he has the pictures though.

Now, getting back to Palumbo. So he aims for - and keeps - his clients in ketosis with high volume training and no refeeds, for up to 24 weeks at a time?

As for Palumbo, yes, that is about it.

**Built** · 05-18-2009, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

I have NO clue what this post is about. If you are trying to infer that Rantorcha's prep is ill-conceived, that once again speaks to your complete lack of experience of prepping competitors and your naivety of what it takes to reach the top levels of bodybuilding competition. But that is not your fault, this is NOT your field.

As for Palumbo, yes, that is about it.

That wasn't directed to you, Eric, I was responding to Juggernaut:

Quote:

Originally Posted by juggernaut

I'm sure one of his clients is about to hit the wall, as I have been reading his ongoing log.
Poor guy is damn near starving, has high volume workouts, minimal protein consumption and hes paying to have that done to him.

gopro · 05-18-2009, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

I have NO clue what this post is about. If you are trying to infer that Rantorcha's prep is ill-conceived, that once again speaks to your complete lack of experience of prepping competitors and your naivety of what it takes to reach the top levels of bodybuilding competition. But that is not your fault, this is NOT your field.

As for Palumbo, yes, that is about it.

Then please allow me to apologize for my response to you, although that was not meant as a personal shot, I assure you.

**Built** · 05-18-2009, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

First of all, I do not consider my training high volume. My clients do maybe 18-20 total sets per workout. Many bodybuilders will almost do that many sets for one large body part.

Where did I say you do high volume?

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

Second, "low days" only occur on non-training days.

I may have misread Rantorcha's prep - it seemed to me that he was doing cardio on what he called a zero carb day. (I do too, it's the best time to do it - cardio doesn't need carbs, unless it's something like HIIT)

If you do any kind of training on a very low carb day, you'll go into ketosis. You'll burn those ketones as fuel if you do cardio - and you won't test any in a keto strip, but that's because there's none left to burn. Unless you follow up with a carby meal, ketones will generally re-appear in the urine an hour or so afterward, though - however, with a very high water intake, they may be too dilute to be visible on the strip.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

Third, THE POINT is that episodic ketosis does not result in muscle loss, by chronic ketosis DOES.

Which is why I needed a definition here. [/quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

Fourth, just because YOU can reach ketosis so easily does not mean everyone does. It take me DAYS of under 50 grams of carbs to even begin to hit ketosis.

OH, I could give you a workout that would have you in ketosis, lol - a depletion workout or two really speeds things up. But without training, I'd take days at under 50g myself. Hell, I'd take days at under 20g. That's pretty normal, I think.

WE DO go into ketosis more easily while fat. You're too lean, and too muscular. (Sucks to be you, lol!)

Seriously, you have less fat to let go of in the first place, and you have so much lean mass, the ketones would burn off before you could measure them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

Fifth, no "ketosis" is not normally ever the goal unless I feel it necesasary, safe for that particular client (meaning they have incredible propensity for retaining muscle OR is not a bodybuilder). or is on drugs.

This is interesting. What do you see as the benefit of ketosis - not just very low carb, but specifically ketosis - for these people for whom you deliberately set it off. When do you feel it is warranted as a deliberate goal?

gopro · 05-18-2009, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

The low days - especially with high volume - would put anyone training with any kind of intensity into ketosis until the higher carb day.

That is where you said high volume.

**Built** · 05-18-2009, 02:33 PM

Ah, sorry. This wasn't you in particular - it's a general statement.

Lyle does this, in UD2.0, on the low days. It's done to deplete glycogen.

gopro · 05-18-2009, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Where did I say you do high volume?

I may have misread Rantorcha's prep - it seemed to me that he was doing cardio on what he called a zero carb day. (I do too, it's the best time to do it - cardio doesn't need carbs, unless it's something like HIIT)

If you do any kind of training on a very low carb day, you'll go into ketosis. You'll burn those ketones as fuel if you do cardio - and you won't test any in a keto strip, but that's because there's none left to burn. Unless you follow up with a carby meal, ketones will generally re-appear in the urine an hour or so afterward, though - however, with a very high water intake, they may be too dilute to be visible on the strip.

Which is why I needed a definition here.

OH, I could give you a workout that would have you in ketosis, lol - a depletion workout or two really speeds things up. But without training, I'd take days at under 50g myself. Hell, I'd take days at under 20g. That's pretty normal, I think.

WE DO go into ketosis more easily while fat. You're too lean, and too muscular. (Sucks to be you, lol!)

Seriously, you have less fat to let go of in the first place, and you have so much lean mass, the ketones would burn off before you could measure them.

This is interesting. What do you see as the benefit of ketosis - not just very low carb, but specifically ketosis - for these people for whom you deliberately set it off. When do you feel it is warranted as a deliberate goal?[/quote]

-Rantorcha does do cardio on zero-carb days, but he is not my "typical" client. He is one of the one's that forces me to go a bit outside the box to get into condition as he is very much an endomorph that retains muscle very well, but also stubbornly hold onto bodyfat. This is why I mention that I do not have a "cookie cutter" approach.

-I can do my normal intense weight training for 3 straight days at 50 grams carbs per day and still not be in ketosis. And I have had many clients like this as well. This is something that varies quite a bit amongst individuals.

-True about ketosis and being "fatter," but I have not always remained this lean. I have only done this in the last few years. I used to bulk with the best of them and still had trouble with ketosis. P.S....I have to work very hard to stay lean...this is no easy task, LOL.

-Ketosis, even when transient is gives you a great opportunity to burn bodyfat because it is physiologically the best state to do so. I do not worry much about muscle loss b/c 1) Again, it is transient, and 2) It is done on non-weight training days.

**Built** · 05-18-2009, 02:38 PM

Is it the ketosis itself that is doing this?

gopro · 05-18-2009, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Built

Is it the ketosis itself that is doing this?

It is the ketosis in so much that there is a lack of carbs for fuel, and thus a shift to extreme low levels of insulin, and higher levels of glucagon, growth hormone, catecholamines, and glucocorticoid. This hormonal cascade is an ideal environment for fat loss.

**Prince** · 05-18-2009, 05:16 PM

is thread really going anywhere?

**Built** · 05-18-2009, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

It is the ketosis in so much that there is a lack of carbs for fuel, and thus a shift to extreme low levels of insulin, and higher levels of glucagon, growth hormone, catecholamines, and glucocorticoid. This hormonal cascade is an ideal environment for fat loss.

Define ideal.

gopro · 05-18-2009, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince

is thread really going anywhere?

No, it is not. Built is trying in some way to discredit me...I can tell by the tone of her questions, LOL.

I do not believe she is trying to "learn anything new."

I believe she is on a witch hunt, and can't seem to just let this go.

**Built** · 05-18-2009, 06:35 PM

Now that's not very nice. I'm not calling you any names or accusing you of anything. I'm just trying to clear up some of this quandary.

Getting back to the question, can you define what you mean by "ideal" in this context?

rantorcha · 05-18-2009, 06:41 PM

You are still arguing this?? Jeez woman! Here...le tme use a couple of these cute little emoticon-thingys to show everyone what I am feeling right now...

**Built** · 05-18-2009, 06:45 PM

Hey dude.

Yeah, I honestly never really got a grip on the thesis of Eric's argument. I'm trying to define some terms so I can get some clarity on this.

How are you feeling? How's posing coming along?

Moondogg · 05-18-2009, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gopro

No, it is not. Built is trying in some way to discredit me...I can tell by the tone of her questions, LOL.

I do not believe she is trying to "learn anything new."

I believe she is on a witch hunt, and can't seem to just let this go.

Gopro, would I be correct in saying that you are 100% confident in your methods/understanding of body building and human physiology?

If so can you please just answer the questions asked? Its not like you trying to hide anything, there is no witch hunt. Builts just trying to understand the situation better.

05-18-2009, 01:20 PM	#253
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,113	Rantorcha is a grown-up and I'm sure nobody's trying to hurt anyone. Running a marathon isn't good for you either, he'll recover. I'm sure he'll be glad when it's all done and he has the pictures though. Now, getting back to Palumbo. So he aims for - and keeps - his clients in ketosis with high volume training and no refeeds, for up to 24 weeks at a time? Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-18-2009, 02:33 PM	#260
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,113	Ah, sorry. This wasn't you in particular - it's a general statement. Lyle does this, in UD2.0, on the low days. It's done to deplete glycogen. Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-18-2009, 02:38 PM	#262
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,113	Is it the ketosis itself that is doing this? Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-18-2009, 05:16 PM	#264
Prince IronMagLabs Owner Administrator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 37,395 Photos: 356	is thread really going anywhere? BOARD SPONSORS: MassNutrition.com - Discount Supplement Superstore IronMagLabs.com - Bodybuilding Nutrition AlltheWhey.com - Bulk Protein Powders & Supplements CEMProducts.com - Research Chemicals & Supplements MusclesProd.com - Steroids, Bodybuilding & Training Blog Maximizer.com - Maximum Strength for Maximum Performance MikeGetsRipped.com - The Original 'Get Ripped' Blog ProteinRoutine.com - Experiments in Healthy Living Follow on Twitter Join Facebook Group Befriend on Myspace

05-18-2009, 06:35 PM	#267
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,113	Now that's not very nice. I'm not calling you any names or accusing you of anything. I'm just trying to clear up some of this quandary. Getting back to the question, can you define what you mean by "ideal" in this context? Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

05-18-2009, 06:41 PM	#268
rantorcha Registered User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 113	You are still arguing this?? Jeez woman! Here...le tme use a couple of these cute little emoticon-thingys to show everyone what I am feeling right now...

05-18-2009, 06:45 PM	#269
Built Bioidentical Bodybuilder Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: . Posts: 6,113	Hey dude. Yeah, I honestly never really got a grip on the thesis of Eric's argument. I'm trying to define some terms so I can get some clarity on this. How are you feeling? How's posing coming along? Wondering where to start? Confused? This will get you started. Daredevils are Shredded Find out why... (Now you can find out why... in Hebrew!) UD2.Built - My UD2.0 setup.

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