Thread: Broser vs Palumbo - battle of the keto diet

Originally Posted by gopro

I guarantee that they do not reach ketosis. And, even so...the point is to not remain in ketosis for any extended period. This is where muscle loss will occur. But Built, it is silly to discuss this with you, because you will not change your view anyway...whether it is based on years and years of experience...studies about muscle loss and extremely low carb diets...or both. Thus, I am not going to discuss this with you anymore and am happy to agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by Built

You had your buddy rantorcha do cardio on a zero carb day. Wanna explain how he avoids ketosis doing that?

Originally Posted by gopro

#1 He is a special case (like I mentioned before...there are minorities), as I know his body and what he needs to get lean.
#2 You will not necessarily be able to reach ketosis in one 24 hour carb-free period.
#3 There is a HUGE difference in being in ketosis for a single day VS. and entire precontest prep period.

Okay, so you don't really guarantee it. No worries.

Originally Posted by Built

You had your buddy rantorcha do cardio on a zero carb day. Wanna explain how he avoids ketosis doing that?

SUCH animosity! So sad...

Good news, though! I AM ERIC'S BUDDY!!!

Mr Dave Palumbo states something about gluconeogenesis for insulin response.
Now this is my question. If the body has reached a state where it's so starved of nutrients that gluconeogensis occurs, wont it convert glucogenic amino acids because it's trying to hold onto what energy it thinks it has, therefore not using glycerol or lactate?
Especially because Fatty acids cannot be converted into glucose in animals with the exception of odd-chain fatty acids, which yield propionyl CoA.

Also, enterring ketosis seems something really hard that people might come near and not really enter, yet doing themselves harm in the process.

Originally Posted by rantorcha

SUCH animosity! So sad...

Good news, though! I AM ERIC'S BUDDY!!!

Its not animosity, its just a very good discussion that really gets into the finer points of dieting.

There just isnt any room for half truths or generalisations.

How about posting a keto test? Just make him piss on a keto-strip.....post a snap of it.

Originally Posted by gopro

#1 He is a special case (like I mentioned before...there are minorities), as I know his body and what he needs to get lean.
#2 You will not necessarily be able to reach ketosis in one 24 hour carb-free period.
#3 There is a HUGE difference in being in ketosis for a single day VS. and entire precontest prep period.

Originally Posted by Built

You had your buddy rantorcha do cardio on a zero carb day. Wanna explain how he avoids ketosis doing that?

I have been googling that question myself and have come across several references in other forums that indicate if your Fat to Protein ratio is small you may not be in ketosis even on a zero carb as glucose is manufactured from the protein.

I don't know how reliable this guy is but here is his link

Low-Carb Diet Tips

Also, the number of grams of carbohydrates per day is not the only factor determining whether you enter ketosis. Individuals who are eating less than 20 grams of carbohydrates but are consuming exceedingly high amounts of protein may NOT enter ketosis. If protein intake is too high, the body can convert the protein into glucose (through a very inefficient means) and avoid ketosis. Also, certain micronutrients may prevent ketosis. Millard

***** Edited to Add *****

Reading a bit more, from LyleM, it might be that we are splitting hairs between ketosis and excessive protein keeping folks out of deep ketosis.

Sometimes the internet sucks, I bet if we were all at a table splitting a pitcher of beer this would be resolved already, lol

Originally Posted by rantorcha

SUCH animosity! So sad...

Good news, though! I AM ERIC'S BUDDY!!!

Animosity is when I cut someone down by attacking his or her character; bringing something into the argument that isn't there - and I'm not above that, I've done it, here, to trolls and spammers.

But it's a weak form of argument; the intellectual equivalent of a below-the-belt punch. It's not sporting.

Animosity would have been if I had said something negative about what kind of a person you are, or what kind of a person Eric is. I didn't do that.

What I did was to point out a single counter-example to refute Eric's argument.
counter-example - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
coun•ter•ex•am•ple
Pronunciation: \kaun-tər-ig-zam-pəl\ Function: noun Date: 1852
: an example that refutes or disproves a proposition or theory

Originally Posted by Moondogg

Its not animosity, its just a very good discussion that really gets into the finer points of dieting.

There just isnt any room for half truths or generalisations.

See? Moondogg gets it.

Originally Posted by nkira

How about posting a keto test? Just make him piss on a keto-strip.....post a snap of it.

You can certainly do that - although keto strips aren't particularly sensitive to low ketone levels. Ketones are a fuel source, and it is only when they are in excess of what will be burned that they spill over into urine and show up on ketosticks (there will, however, be enough to show up on a more sensitive test, such as blood testing, in a lab). With keto strips, false positives are rare, but false negatives are common.

Short version:
keto strip turns purple = definite ketosis.
Keto strip doesn't turn purple = we can't say for sure.

I've gone into ketosis an hour after a bicycle ride where I had eaten bagels for breakfast - tested with a keto strip and it did indeed turn purple.

I've also been weeks into a ketogenic diet with under 30g of carb daily and had no ketones showing on the test; typically after exercise, where they've all been burned off as fuel. An hour or two after I'd stop exercising, subsequent tests would indicate the presence of ketones.

That's why I think we need to stop getting hung up on the word.

Above all else, I am the true king of animosity. No one can take my title!!!

Ok, let me say that I "highly doubt Rantorcha is in ketosis so quickly because first, I used to do the keto stix thing and found that it takes more than 24 hours for most everyone to hit ketosis and second, because it is not that easy for the body to go into full on ketosis."

That said...let's say Rantorcha DOES end up in ketosis after a day. The take home point is that a day or two or three in a row of ketosis is not enough to cause any severe lean tissue loss. It is the extended near zero or zero carb diet (say a normal phase for most...8-16 weeks) that causes the problems for bodybuilders, particularly naturals.

Interesting. I have never gone that low - and I did Atkins.

Originally Posted by Built

Interesting. I have never gone that low - and I did Atkins.

Well, no matter. What you are doing for YOURSELF is working quite nicely.

Thanks. I'm wondering more and more if you have a different definition of low carb or ketogenic than I do, Eric.

Humour me for a moment here - have you ever done a ketogenic diet yourself? I realize fully well that you came into this as an ectomorph, not a meso-endo like me. I'm just curious if you've ever gotten yourself into ketosis (if for no other reason than curiosity).

If so, what macros did you run, and what are maintenance calories for you?

good question

Originally Posted by Built

Thanks. I'm wondering more and more if you have a different definition of low carb or ketogenic than I do, Eric.

Humour me for a moment here - have you ever done a ketogenic diet yourself? I realize fully well that you came into this as an ectomorph, not a meso-endo like me. I'm just curious if you've ever gotten yourself into ketosis (if for no other reason than curiosity).

If so, what macros did you run, and what are maintenance calories for you?

I would NEVER talk about anything (with complete confidence) unless I tried it myself first...that is one of my golden rules of being a coach.

So yes, I have used both an Atkins type diet and also Palumbo's diet, and even one in between that I learned from Dan Duchaine. I have also used various approaches to the diet with many clients of differing body types.

Okay, cool. I did PSMF (Lyle's "Rapid Fat Loss" for those of you about to ask) for the same reason - I saw people using it successfully and although it seemed incongruous that I could subsist on 50% of my maintenance without discomfort, I felt honour-bound to try it.

I was floored.

Getting back to you - when you ran your various keto versions, did you feel comfortable on any of them? Not everybody does.

Same here. when I was introduced to it and ran it, I was shocked how good I looked and how much of an improvement digestibility went through (no pun intended). However as I reverted back to some carbs, slowly and surely, the bloat and gasiness that come, especially on higher carb day just arent worth it. Plus, after doing the higher fat/protein addition, my auras stopped and that was sealed the deal.

It's interesting, isn't it? I feel great on keto, you do too. My husband utterly HATES it, but that's because he couldn't have his usual ice cream and chocolate at bedtime LOL! He's got a real sweet tooth.

As for me, I don't just east low carb for cutting. I eat low carb when I want to maintain my weight and not track. Like right now - I'm injured, and you really can't cut when you're trying to heal an injury. I just stay keto (or close to keto) and I can maintain my weight by feel. One less thing for me to deal with right now, and it can only enhance healing - insulin is pro-inflammatory and I don't need any more inflammation. I just load in the healthy fats and veggies and meat at times like these.

Eric, did you ever feel good on any of the low-carb paradigms you tried on for size? And were your calories ever at maintenance or over, or did you only do this at sub-maintenance?

The reason I'm so interested in your response to keto is because you are naturally lean - you're not a former fatty like so many of us are. There really aren't that many naturally lean people wandering around out there - fewer still who have actually tried keto as an experiment. I'm very interested to hear how it affected you, and what macros you ran while you did it.

I feel unreal-and not as bloated. Cant train properly if I have to many carbs running around in the bod. I get all woozy and goofy. Not that that has stopped me before!

We live in a fascinating time, don't we jugg? I'm so glad there are scientists writing about the physiology of bodybuilding now, and not JUST people selling supplements (although certainly, some do both and sometimes that can be a good thing). I love the recent information that is challenging the old-school dogma. Some of the old stuff is still the best, and some of it needs to be retired. I love these fora for the real-time information sharing they facilitate. You just can't get that in a paper magazine.

Just another random note:

I had pain in my right leg for years because of a stupid mistake I made squatting when I just started.

A couple of cycles of UD 2.0 and it was GONE! I'm squatting as heavy/heavier than I was before but pain-free now. I'm a fan of low carb/keto diets now if for no other reason than glycogen supercompensation which I believe is what finally got my leg to heal.

Originally Posted by Built

Okay, cool. I did PSMF (Lyle's "Rapid Fat Loss" for those of you about to ask) for the same reason - I saw people using it successfully and although it seemed incongruous that I could subsist on 50% of my maintenance without discomfort, I felt honour-bound to try it.

I was floored.

Getting back to you - when you ran your various keto versions, did you feel comfortable on any of them? Not everybody does.

I feel quite comfortable on keto diets! No problem with low blood sugar, and appetite remains under control. That was never a concern after the first few days as my body adjusted.

Originally Posted by Built

Eric, did you ever feel good on any of the low-carb paradigms you tried on for size? And were your calories ever at maintenance or over, or did you only do this at sub-maintenance?

The reason I'm so interested in your response to keto is because you are naturally lean - you're not a former fatty like so many of us are. There really aren't that many naturally lean people wandering around out there - fewer still who have actually tried keto as an experiment. I'm very interested to hear how it affected you, and what macros you ran while you did it.

I started each of my keto plans at maintenance level and then slowly, on a weekly basis, either added extra minutes of cardio or (not both) lowered overall calories a bit.

Also, I should point out that while I am naturally SKINNY, I am not naturally lean. I had little to no muscle definition when I started training, even though I weighed 125 lbs at 5'11"!!! Sad!

Skinny fat or not, at 125 even if you were 20% bodyfat, we're only talking 25 lbs.

I have 114 whopping pounds of lean mass, I LOST 50 lbs of fat, and I still carry over twenty pounds of fat when I'm LEAN.

What macros did you run on keto?

Originally Posted by Built

We live in a fascinating time, don't we jugg? I'm so glad there are scientists writing about the physiology of bodybuilding now, and not JUST people selling supplements (although certainly, some do both and sometimes that can be a good thing). I love the recent information that is challenging the old-school dogma. Some of the old stuff is still the best, and some of it needs to be retired. I love these fora for the real-time information sharing they facilitate. You just can't get that in a paper magazine.

I love that there is an educational aspect going on now in bbing, being a former veteran teacher. I love that science has taken realm of what should be studied and analyzed with an electron microscope. Afterall, we are talking about people's health and their safety. You dont wanna mess with those two keys, especially after all the hard work and sacrifice that goes into planning, training and eating. It really is a science.

Also, old school workouts can be very beneficial-there some who really knew what they were talking about.
We should continue to debunk and challenge everything-it is part of the learning process. I also agree that some of it does need to be retired, or at the very least investigated further before any real theories are born.

I was tipping the scales at 300 lbs 6 years ago. I came in at my leanest of 188 lbs. I also stand at 6'!"

Originally Posted by Built

Skinny fat or not, at 125 even if you were 20% bodyfat, we're only talking 25 lbs.

I have 114 whopping pounds of lean mass, I LOST 50 lbs of fat, and I still carry over twenty pounds of fat when I'm LEAN.

What macros did you run on keto?

I understand...I was just pointing that out because many people don't realize just how pathetic (LOL) I was when I started. I mean, I was an excellent athlete...baseball, martial arts, football...but just had little to no muscle.

As for the macros, we are talking zero starchy carbs...some fibrous carbs from green veggies and also from almonds, walnuts, and/or natty peanut butter, anywhere from 1.5 to 2 grams protein per lb bodyweight, and about .33 to .5 grams of fat per lb bodyweight.

Okay, so you weighed about what, 240 at the time, and were running something like this:

Low end
360g protein
80g fat
50g carb
2400 calories

High end
480g protein
120g fat
50g carb
3200 calories

That look about right for the times you ran it?

Originally Posted by Built

Okay, so you weighed about what, 240 at the time, and were running something like this:

Low end
360g protein
80g fat
50g carb
2400 calories

High end
480g protein
120g fat
50g carb
3200 calories

That look about right for the times you ran it?

Actually, fats were a bit higher as I was only counting added EFA's. Also, I do not count fibrous carbs as they go mostly undigested anyway.

But basically, that is it. And it kept me in ketosis throughout the entire period of the diets each time, although it took almost a week to get me there.

I had no problems with hunger and often felt just fine (but I also feel this way on a timed low carb plan as well) with only tiny cravings. I lost bodyfat quite readily, but also flattened out and lost too much muscle for my liking.