Thread: Counting calories vs protein

It is ALWAYS calories in, calories out.

Why must you increase your calories in order to increase your protein intake?

(as an aside, please read homework 1 in my sig; you may find the answers to many of your questions in there)

5'6" and 122 lbs - you're SKINNY! How much fat do you think you should drop? Also, 6 days a week while cutting is too much training, flat out. How many calories are you currently eating, and how many grams of protein, carb and fat?

Listen to Builts advice, it's solid.

sounds like hubby has def put you on the right track. any clue of what your macros could be close to?

personally I have found many (and myself) to be successful with using an isocaloric diet at 33/33/33 - P/C/F

personally I recommend most to be closer to the higher end of the fat intake range of 15-37% of the total cals than the lower. to low on the dietary fats and not only does test production suffer but so does anaerobic output

I know Built doesn't like them but I like to get people to least try it for a little. along with calories you have to look at the overall glycemic load of your diet. controlling insulin is the key to maximizing fat loss. using macros gives you a number to go along with the visual aspect of your food consumption

Originally Posted by LAM

sounds like hubby has def put you on the right track. any clue of what your macros could be close to?

personally I have found many (and myself) to be successful with using an isocaloric diet at 33/33/33 - P/C/F

LAM, I really wish you'd get away from percentages. The approach REALLY falls apart for anything other than maintenance. Grams per pound lean mass gives a more workable outline for anyone to follow.

Originally Posted by LAM

personally I recommend most to be closer to the higher end of the fat intake range of 15-37% of the total cals than the lower. to low on the dietary fats and not only does test production suffer but so does anaerobic output

I know Built doesn't like them but I like to get people to least try it for a little. along with calories you have to look at the overall glycemic load of your diet. controlling insulin is the key to maximizing fat loss. using macros gives you a number to go along with the visual aspect of your food consumption

I don't like... them? What are these things I don't like?

Also, you appear to be misguided as to the function of insulin.

Originally Posted by Built

It is ALWAYS calories in, calories out.

Why must you increase your calories in order to increase your protein intake?

(as an aside, please read homework 1 in my sig; you may find the answers to many of your questions in there)

5'6" and 122 lbs - you're SKINNY! How much fat do you think you should drop? Also, 6 days a week while cutting is too much training, flat out. How many calories are you currently eating, and how many grams of protein, carb and fat?

Maybe I didn't phrase it correctly... I know I am not fat, what i have is the usual fat around the mid section, upper inner thighs (which I have never seen a difference in) and my arms could also use so trimming up. What i would like is to trim off the little fat that I have in theses areas, to see more definiton. I am not one of those females that obsseses about how fat she is while looking like a rail. I just want to be able to see what it is I work for at the gym every day. I also would just like to maintain a healthy diet.

Keeping track of what I have been eating has proved to be difficult in the past couple of days. But an average is 1400 cal 164 carbs (i was eating what i thought to be decent snack bars!) 86 pro total fat 31. I get confused on the fat part b/c there are so many different fats I am not sure which to pay attention too. I have checked out all the calorie, protein, etc calculators online, but I am just not sure which unit is more important for me to pay close attention too.

I know one thing I need to do is up my cardio. I have recently been riding a bike but not consistant. One day 8 miles the nest 2-3 miles. I am waiting for the gym in my apartment to open.

My work out I averaged at about 6 days a week b/c my husband works shift work and sometimes is a little to tired to hit up the gym, so one week might be five days the next six the next four days.

I will definately read up on your "homework 1" Built and appreciate the input and advice.

I'll look forward to reading your revised plan once you've read homework 1.
Your protein could nearly double, and your fats could stand to come up as well.

Also, I'll save you a LOT of misery: cardio is not the key to fat loss.

Are you maintaining on 1400 calories a day, or dropping weight? Because those are some LOW calories! As slim and active as you are, I would have thought your maintenance would be closer to about 14-15 times your bodyweight, or about 1800 calories a day. On 1400, you should be dropping about 3/4 of a pound a week right now, yes?

Ok so I may have over done it today, Im not sure. I read homework 1 and read the lowest you want to have your protien, fats, ect. But I didn't see a max. I cheated myself and had a bowl of cereal this evening and I also recieved my protein mix today and wanted to give it a taste before and after the gym. So today cal- 1817 tot fat - 57.5 Carbs- 197.8 Pro -142.6 I am still confused on what fats I am to be totaling. I didn't see this in homework 1. It may have been there ( i was alternating school material and breaking with homework 1). At this point compared to my calorie counting only days, I feel like I went on an eating spree! i understand the importance of fats, protiens and calories, but I am still foggy on where exactly my numbers need to be. See, I feel pretty good about the strength I have now, sure more is better, but I dont plan on getting crazy with it. i feel if i could just shed the love handles and little fat i have on various parts of my body I would be in satisfied. I also don't recall seeing anything on the amount of carbs one might need. I guess I will continue with my eating habits and take the advice of upping my protein and fats a little and see where that takes me. The only thing (other than the cereal this evening) that I eat all day that I can see not doing me any good is coffee with cream. Other than that its eggs, fruit, occasional yogurt and chicken or fish with veggies at night.

Originally Posted by laddergoat

Ok so I may have over done it today, Im not sure. I read homework 1 and read the lowest you want to have your protien, fats, ect. But I didn't see a max.

That's right - there is no max, other than eventually you will run out of calories. Thank you for doing this btw.

Originally Posted by laddergoat

I cheated myself and had a bowl of cereal this evening and I also recieved my protein mix today and wanted to give it a taste before and after the gym. So today cal- 1817 tot fat - 57.5 Carbs- 197.8 Pro -142.6 I am still confused on what fats I am to be totaling.

All of them. Ideally, monos are the highest and polys are the lowest, but about a third from each is fine. Don't sweat this part for now.

Originally Posted by laddergoat

I didn't see this in homework 1. It may have been there ( i was alternating school material and breaking with homework 1). At this point compared to my calorie counting only days, I feel like I went on an eating spree! i understand the importance of fats, protiens and calories, but I am still foggy on where exactly my numbers need to be. See, I feel pretty good about the strength I have now, sure more is better, but I dont plan on getting crazy with it. i feel if i could just shed the love handles and little fat i have on various parts of my body I would be in satisfied. I also don't recall seeing anything on the amount of carbs one might need.

Need? Zero. There is no need for carbs whatsoever, they're non-essential. Get in the protein minimum, get in the fat minimum, and see how many calories you have left. Fill those up with whatever combination of (more) protein, (more) fat and carb you find comfortable.

Originally Posted by laddergoat

I guess I will continue with my eating habits and take the advice of upping my protein and fats a little and see where that takes me. The only thing (other than the cereal this evening) that I eat all day that I can see not doing me any good is coffee with cream.

Nothing wrong with coffee and cream. Coffee's got antioxidants, and the caffeine helps you mobilize fat if you take it before a workout. Cream has healthy saturated animal fat. Just be sure to count the calories.

Originally Posted by laddergoat

Other than that its eggs, fruit, occasional yogurt and chicken or fish with veggies at night.

Nothing wrong with eating cereal at night either, just make sure your calories stay within range of where you want them to be.

In setting this up for yourself, if you're trying to drop a little fat in the tum, but are otherwise lean you're probably around 20% bodyfat, so let's just use a nice round estimate of 100 lbs for your lean mass for ease of calculation.

Your protein minimum is 100g and your fat minimum is 50g. If you're aiming to drop fat you'll need to run a caloric deficit. I'm not sure what your maintenance is, but if it's around 1700-1800, you could try dropping that down to 1400.

Protein makes it easier to feel fed and helps you maintain muscle while running a deficit (so you drop fat and lean out, instead of dropping muscle and becoming skinny-fat), so you could try running about 150g protein, like you did today. Fats can help with satiety as well, so you could try keeping fats at around, say, 60-70g. With 140g protein and 60g fat, you've "spent" 1100 calories. If you're trying to stick to 1400 calories for the day, this leaves you with 300 calories from carbohydrate, or 75g.

You may find this too much protein and too little carbohydrate for your comfort, at which point you could drop the protein down to say 125g and bring the carbs up to 90g, it's really up to you. Ultimately, as you've noted in the past, it really is just the calories that will determine the weight you lose. Setting up some goalposts around protein and fat just help you optimize this process for your body so you don't chew through muscle, and so you don't feel overly hungry while you diet down.

Speaking of which, if you intend to drop that little tire, you'll probably have to drop down about 5-8 lbs from where you are. Plan to drop about half a pound of fat per week; you're tiny, and any faster than this for a woman your size will be ghastly.

Does this help?

This helps me out tramendously!! You have been a great help!
I have read coffee is good for you (in moderation) and my creamer doesnt carry to many calories. But, I do have an addiction and consume anywhere from 3 cups to 8 cups in one day, I switch to decaf if I drink any at night. The numbers you suggested for pro and fat are clsoe to my intake yesterday. But my cal were around the 1800 mark. So I am going to dry to drop my cal intake down to around 1500 while trying to keep my proteins and fats up around the totals you suggested. We will see how that goes for now. Thank you very much for you help on this. Now lets see if I can do it!

Excellent. Why don't you post up a meal plan for tomorrow so we can see what you're thinking, and make suggestions before you launch?

Originally Posted by Built

Also, you appear to be misguided as to the function of insulin.

not at all, insulin is a storage hormone it's primary function is to regulate carbohydrate and fatty aid metabolism with the secondary function being storage.

you will not find a medical study anywhere that shows a person with a high level of body fat or low insulin resistance (IS) having success losing body fat on a high carbohydrate diet...

the source of calories (P/C/F) in the diet determines how they are partitioned....

Originally Posted by LAM

you will not find a medical study anywhere that shows a person with a high level of body fat or low insulin resistance (IS) having success losing body fat on a high carbohydrate diet...

This is just a quote look.

MMS: Error

Similar weight loss with low- or high-carbohydrate diets

SpringerLink - Diabetologia, Volume 48, Number 1

Describe the phases of insulin response, which one is often impaired in obesity, and why this is a problem. I ask this, because I recently discovered I have been barking up the wrong tree about insulin for years. And recall, I'm a big fan of low carb. Still am. And probably not for the reasons you think.

Originally Posted by LAM

not at all, insulin is a storage hormone it's primary function is to regulate carbohydrate and fatty aid metabolism with the secondary function being storage.

you will not find a medical study anywhere that shows a person with a high level of body fat or low insulin resistance (IS) having success losing body fat on a high carbohydrate diet...

the source of calories (P/C/F) in the diet determines how they are partitioned....

Originally Posted by Marat

This is just a quote look.

MMS: Error

Similar weight loss with low- or high-carbohydrate diets

SpringerLink - Diabetologia, Volume 48, Number 1

not a single one of those studies mentions the body composition or amount of muscle and fat. the BMI uses statistical data from the 1950's, it's basically useless since it does not measure changes in the body composition. there is nothing easier than gaining or losing "weight" on the scale especially for people with higher than average levels of LBM.

decreasing body fat while preserving LBM is not easy.

I am about to head out the the gym. So I will try to post a meal plan for tomorrow when I get home. I normally don't plan anything. In AM i always have 2 eggs most of the time with a slice or 1/4 cup cheese, then I plan dinner (chicken or fish) and for the rest of the day I eat whatever whenever. Most of the time its fruit, maybe turkey lunch meat with a piece of cheese (no bread), tuna or something along those lines. My eating times are never planned. I just eat when I start to get hungry, so I don't just eat because its time and so i don't get to the point of piggy out.

I am going to have to post pone the eating layout for tomorrow. Husband is off and lots of running around to do, so I won't be home to eat. Which me I will be out and about with all those food temptations! Wish me luck! LOL! I will post a meal plan for following day tomorrow though.

Originally Posted by LAM

decreasing body fat while preserving LBM is not easy.

It is, if you're fat and a novice but I agree with you, it isn't if you're lean and already well-conditioned.

Originally Posted by laddergoat

I am about to head out the the gym. So I will try to post a meal plan for tomorrow when I get home. I normally don't plan anything. In AM i always have 2 eggs most of the time with a slice or 1/4 cup cheese, then I plan dinner (chicken or fish) and for the rest of the day I eat whatever whenever. Most of the time its fruit, maybe turkey lunch meat with a piece of cheese (no bread), tuna or something along those lines. My eating times are never planned. I just eat when I start to get hungry, so I don't just eat because its time and so i don't get to the point of piggy out.

This is why you are having trouble with that last little bit of "tummy fat". I'll look forward to your meal plan when you post it up.

Todays macros
cal - 1711
total fat - 42
carbs - 128
protein - 154

Why is my eating whatever ( in a healthy way ) whenever ( this is based on when i get up, I pretty much eat every 2 to 3 hours but the actual time changes day to day ) my trouble getting rid of my little fat left? I was under the impression ( just reading and listening here and there) that what mattered was to watch what you eat and eat at least 5 to 6 times a day, I didn't know the actual time mattered.

Originally Posted by LAM

not a single one of those studies mentions the body composition or amount of muscle and fat. the BMI uses statistical data from the 1950's, it's basically useless since it does not measure changes in the body composition. there is nothing easier than gaining or losing "weight" on the scale especially for people with higher than average levels of LBM.

decreasing body fat while preserving LBM is not easy.

I don't necessarily disagree with your overall sentiment -- I wanted to point out what is available.

As Built mentioned, general fat people (as in the study) may have a bit of leeway in the 'fat loss/muscle loss ratio' when they are just starting out.

laddergoat, perhaps the issue with the semi-random 'healthy' grazing is that you may not be holding a sustainable deficit? Perhaps there are some days when you go a bit over maintenance, some days you may be a bit under --- long term, you are ending up at more or less your 'maintenance' and therefore are not losing any fat.

Regarding the eating 5-6 meals a day: You are welcome to do that if you're comfortable with it, however, it isn't necessary. This concept has been discussed throughout the forum, if you'd like to do a search.

Here's one of those threads:
The "Meal Frequency" discussion continues...

Originally Posted by laddergoat

Todays macros
cal - 1711
total fat - 42
carbs - 128
protein - 154

Why is my eating whatever ( in a healthy way ) whenever ( this is based on when i get up, I pretty much eat every 2 to 3 hours but the actual time changes day to day ) my trouble getting rid of my little fat left? I was under the impression ( just reading and listening here and there) that what mattered was to watch what you eat and eat at least 5 to 6 times a day, I didn't know the actual time mattered.

Comfort, health, satiety, muscle-retention - these are variously impacted upon by meal timing, frequency and selection, but not weight loss.

For weight loss, the time you eat, the frequency of your meals and their composition doesn't actually matter at all. Here, the only thing that matters is consistently running a deficit.

As Marat mentioned, you are indeed quite welcome to snack or graze if this suits you. But in order to run a deficit, you need to eat less food than you need, on average. Many find this more comfortable if they only eat three or four times a day, in larger, less-frequent feedings - and in the case of intermittent fasting, all of them consumed within a constrained feeding window of 8-12 hours.