Thread: Low testesterone?

Hi there

Briefly, my husband is on HRT, he pins himself no problems at all and I don't think you can get your blood levels up high enough on gels but there are others who might disagree.

If you do pin yourself, I suggest you let your doctor pin you the first time and then you follow up with your own pinning. The doctors like to pin once every two weeks - which is insane, because your blood levels will spike and crash that way. The best situation is the one where your doctor starts you on the full two-week dose, and you begin pinning with a quarter of that dose twice a week from that point forward.

For instance, hubby pins 75mg twice a week for a weekly dose of 150mg.

The doctor started him on his first shot, which was 200mg and was meant to last two weeks - in other words, 100mg per week. We decided to increase this dose up to 150mg a week, and pin twice a week so his schedule looked like this:


Monday: 200mg
Tuesday: -
Wednesday: -
Thursday: 75mg
Friday: -
Saturday: -
Sunday: -
Monday: - 75mg
Tuesday: -
Wednesday: -
Thursday: - 75mg

etc

That first shot acted as a "frontload" to bring his levels up fast. The rest is a maintenance dose.

With regard to your symptoms - I imagine you've had bloodwork done and you know your levels. Come back and let us know what dose you are on and the frequency you are pinning (any less than once a week is ill-advised, for the record). Hubby has never had an infection from his shots by the way.

With regard to training - post up your split, or perhaps better yet have a look at the link in my sig on getting started to see how far different your plan was from what information is in that post.

Good luck!

Originally Posted by Built

With regard to your symptoms - I imagine you've had bloodwork done and you know your levels. Come back and let us know what dose you are on and the frequency you are pinning (any less than once a week is ill-advised, for the record). Hubby has never had an infection from his shots by the way.

With regard to training - post up your split, or perhaps better yet have a look at the link in my sig on getting started to see how far different your plan was from what information is in that post.

Good luck!

I haven't trained with weights in a few years, but was wondering why soreness is taking longer than normal to go away, and if it's worth training in the gym if my levels of test are currently low? I feel if test is low I won't make much progress in the gym.

Also, I haven't had blood work done yet but hope to either this week or next. I'm just assuming from my symptoms that test is low, but I will be sure to post back once I know for sure.

Originally Posted by Built

Hi there

Briefly, my husband is on HRT, he pins himself no problems at all and I don't think you can get your blood levels up high enough on gels but there are others who might disagree.

If you do pin yourself, I suggest you let your doctor pin you the first time and then you follow up with your own pinning. The doctors like to pin once every two weeks - which is insane, because your blood levels will spike and crash that way. The best situation is the one where your doctor starts you on the full two-week dose, and you begin pinning with a quarter of that dose twice a week from that point forward.

For instance, hubby pins 75mg twice a week for a weekly dose of 150mg.

The doctor started him on his first shot, which was 200mg and was meant to last two weeks - in other words, 100mg per week. We decided to increase this dose up to 150mg a week, and pin twice a week so his schedule looked like this:


Monday: 200mg
Tuesday: -
Wednesday: -
Thursday: 75mg
Friday: -
Saturday: -
Sunday: -
Monday: - 75mg
Tuesday: -
Wednesday: -
Thursday: - 75mg

etc

That first shot acted as a "frontload" to bring his levels up fast. The rest is a maintenance dose.

With regard to your symptoms - I imagine you've had bloodwork done and you know your levels. Come back and let us know what dose you are on and the frequency you are pinning (any less than once a week is ill-advised, for the record). Hubby has never had an infection from his shots by the way.

With regard to training - post up your split, or perhaps better yet have a look at the link in my sig on getting started to see how far different your plan was from what information is in that post.

Good luck!

does your hubby ever come off and restore his HPTA? ive read that some people do this for a few months each year.

Im 27, and just started TRT, but 60 years of TRT scares the fuck out of me. Any insight to your husband would be appreciated.

OK, IMO you should get shots, gel is garbage. That said, you can ask for testosterone ethanate, it has a longer ester so you could get pinned once every two weeks, meaning just a quick trip to the doc each two weeks. My question for you is what kind of training routine were you on? My experience has been get in get out quick 45-60 min max. Go heavy for only 4-6 reps and around 4-10 sets depending ie., bis 4 sets tris 4 sets lats 8-10 sets pecs 6=8 sets quads 10 sets. Brief but fucking brutal, hit each bodypart once every 7 days I hope this helps, good luck buddy.

Enanthate has about a 5-8-day halflife, at best. Examination of pharmacokinetic data suggests to me one should plan to pin at least twice per halflife.

Cypionate has a halflife that is perhaps a day longer than enanthate. Same deal.

Can anyone help answer my question about soreness?

Taken from my OP.....

I used to workout in the past and would be generally sore for about 2-3 days max, but as time has gone on that soreness seems to linger longer, usually about 4-5 days, sometimes a week, which prevents me to train certain muscle groups again because the soreness is pretty extreme, mainly for calves. I find myself dreading doing calves, because they get so sore and stiff I can't walk for about a week, no matter how light I go in weight.

If in fact my test levels are low (which I will find out through blood work soon), should I even consider doing weights? Will I be able to build muscle at all, if any? I'm sure it won't be much. Doing weights does increase natural test production, correct?

eVo, If you are nervous about needles, and if blood tests do, indeed, prove you are low on testosterone, the gels and creams do work for some people, though not all, according to my Doc. When I started HRT about eight months ago, my free testosterone number was 438 ng/dl. After a month of using daily applications of pharmaceutical T cream, it was 830 ng/dl. The only drawback is you have to be careful around females and children with whom you come in contact because, according to my Doc, women and children absorb the hormone very easily, even through ancillary contact. This proved to be true for my wife, so, two weeks ago, I switched to weekly injections of 1cc (is this 100 mg, abs lady and other experts?) which is painless and much safer, and I gather, far more effective, judging from what I've read here. But, if you hate needles, there is still hope. T

Originally Posted by 2tomlinson

eVo, If you are nervous about needles, and if blood tests do, indeed, prove you are low on testosterone, the gels and creams do work for some people, though not all, according to my Doc. When I started HRT about eight months ago, my free testosterone number was 438 ng/dl. After a month of using daily applications of pharmaceutical T cream, it was 830 ng/dl. The only drawback is you have to be careful around females and children with whom you come in contact because, according to my Doc, women and children absorb the hormone very easily, even through ancillary contact. This proved to be true for my wife, so, two weeks ago, I switched to weekly injections of 1cc (is this 100 mg, abs lady and other experts?) which is painless and much safer, and I gather, far more effective, judging from what I've read here. But, if you hate needles, there is still hope. T

Thanks, and I'm not nervous about needles, but this doesn't answer my question.

IMO opinion it must have some affect on your muscle soreness. When on a test only cycle I never get sore. Recuperation is incredible while on, so I say yes to your question and really typed this to bumb this and get others opinions.

Originally Posted by angelo212

IMO opinion it must have some affect on your muscle soreness. When on a test only cycle I never get sore. Recuperation is incredible while on, so I say yes to your question and really typed this to bumb this and get others opinions.

Thx. is it even worth working out or am I just wasting time?

Originally Posted by eVoluti0n

Thx. is it even worth working out or am I just wasting time?

IMO even if you aren't putting on any new muscle just using the muscle you have against any resistance is a plus. Also, your burning calories by lifting and all the other health benefits of exercise.
I recently read a thread in another forum where this dude couldn't believe how low his test was. It was crazy low, that I remember but, he was in shock because he said "I been steady gaining muscle in the gym not knowing my test was this low". So maybe even having low test you can still make some gains but at least you will be able to hang on to what you have. If I remember right your test was in the lower range of normal not below normal so maybe you can still make new muscle. IMO, if you tear the fibers they will regrow stronger even in the lower range of test.

You can still build with low test. The soreness may be related to low levels of estrogen - which come along for the ride with low levels of test since some of your testosterone aromatizes to estrogen. Less testosterone in your body -> less estrogen to aromatize.

2tomlinson, you may find you'll get the most out of you injections if you split it into two shots of 50mg, pinned twice weekly. Next time you give yourself a 100mg injection, start pinning 50mg about three days later.

In other words, if you currently pin 100mg Sunday, do this:

Sunday: 100mg <-last once-weekly shot
Wednesday: 50mg
Sunday: 50mg
etc

This will keep your levels far more stable, and you'll never drop as low as you would pinning once a week.

If you can get a script for undecanoate IM (sold as "Nebido" in Europe and I believe available through some compounding pharmacies in the US), you can move to a once-every-two-weeks pinning schedule if you like. I am under the impression that Nebido a roughly 30-day half-life. Pinning twice per half-life means pinning every two weeks with undecanoate.

Note, if you DO get undecanoate as an IM injection, be sure to adjust your dose upward a bit. Undecanoate is a heavier ester.

List of Chemicals: T - Testosterone;1-Testosterone;Testosterone acetate;Testosterone benzoate;Testosterone cypionate;Testosterone decanoate;Testosterone enanthate;Testosterone isobutyrate;Testosterone isocaproate;Testosterone phenylpropionate;Testost

Testosterone Cypionate:
Molecular Weight: 412.6
Molecular Weight (base): 288.4
Molecular Weight (ester): 124.2

Testosterone Undecanoate:
Molecular Weight: 456.7
Molecular Weight (base): 288.4
Molecular Weight (ester): 168.3

100mg testosterone cypionate contains 70mg testosterone and 30mg cypionate ester
100mg testosterone undecanoate contains 63mg testosterone and 37mg undecanoate ester

Thus 110 mg testosterone undecanoate is equivalent to 100mg testosterone cypionate.

Abs Lady (Built) you are a fount, and very helpful. I'm on the road for the next three weeks but will take your advice when I return home. At the risk of imposing on your time and knowledge, I mentioned that my Doc has me mixing .5 CC (50 mg, right?) of Nadrolene with the T. All body parts functioning wonderfully, and he says I can increase dosage to 1 CC without risking Deca dick -- a woeful malady I care not to risk. Is my Doc correct? What is a common safe highest dosage for Nandrolene? T

2tomlinson, you are most welcome to what little I know.

Most of the fellas here recommend a 2:1 testosterone:nandrolone dosing. Your mileage may vary - all you can do is try.

My .02 on this is if you are feeling good on your current mix, leave it alone. Try the more frequent pinning before you try any other changes.

Why use more than you need? If you get what you need from a lower dose, you'll have fewer sides to deal with.

Its interesting to think that although the symptoms you describe are symptoms of low test but also symptoms of excessive alcohol consumption and at 26 it wouldnt be very common for you to have test lvls at less than the low to normal range(though it is possible) do you drink alcohol and how much? I dont mean to insult you but you also stated this started in highschool which is when problem drinking often begins and your test lvls are through the roof at that age

Originally Posted by jcar1016

Its interesting to think that although the symptoms you describe are symptoms of low test but also symptoms of excessive alcohol consumption and at 26 it wouldnt be very common for you to have test lvls at less than the low to normal range(though it is possible) do you drink alcohol and how much? I dont mean to insult you but you also stated this started in highschool which is when problem drinking often begins and your test lvls are through the roof at that age

thanks, but i don't do drugs or alcohol...so your theory is dismissed

Originally Posted by eVoluti0n

thanks, but i don't do drugs or alcohol...so your theory is dismissed

schools out dismissed

sorry bro like I said I meant no offence I just saw that before good luck with HRT

Originally Posted by jcar1016

sorry bro like I said I meant no offence I just saw that before good luck with HRT

it's cool. i would have posted if that were the case

Without knowing for sure what your test levels are I think we're shooting in the dark. I'd say get your blood test results then attack systematically when you know for sure what you're up against.

Originally Posted by Built

For instance, hubby pins 75mg twice a week for a weekly dose of 150mg.

The doctor started him on his first shot, which was 200mg and was meant to last two weeks - in other words, 100mg per week. We decided to increase this dose up to 150mg a week, and pin twice a week so his schedule looked like this:

Monday: 200mg
Tuesday: -
Wednesday: -
Thursday: 75mg
Friday: -
Saturday: -
Sunday: -
Monday: - 75mg
Tuesday: -
Wednesday: -
Thursday: - 75mg

I was just curious on this, does the doc know you changed the dose and schedule? Does your husband feel that 150mg weekly is enough?

The doc does indeed know we've changed the dose and the schedule. In fact, I printed out pharmacokinetic models that I worked up based on published research and various pinning frequencies so he'd know WHY we changed the schedule.

Published research suggests 125mg per week is "top end of normal" replacement and hubby's bloodwork is consistent with this; 150mg/week puts hubby just above the high end of normal. I'm hoping we don't have to pull it back to 125 but yes, he's fine. He's put on a significant amount of muscle on this, actually. Mood improved, energy level did too. He says he feels like he's seventeen again.

Originally Posted by Built

I printed out pharmacokinetic models that I worked up based on published research and various pinning frequencies so he'd know WHY we changed the schedule.

will you send this to me or post it here?

Sure - I'll work it up into an article or something. It's a messy excel sheet at the moment.

cool, thanks...when it comes to HRT most docs just don't know shit.

Most really don't know shit. It's actually painful.

Originally Posted by Built

Sure - I'll work it up into an article or something. It's a messy excel sheet at the moment.

I'd like to see this too, in case I need it in the future

Cool. I've actually been meaning to try to programme up an interactive tool; now that I see interest I'll try to get my shit together and get that happening.