jakethesnake

I for one, suffer from this. I'm not very big at the moment (5'11 160lbs), but i feel really small and constantly look at myself in the mirror and even then, sometimes i feel quite big, sometimes i feel really skinny (especially when i look to the side). Does anyone else suffer from it?

Fit Freak

I have a big problem...relate to this very much....either feel I'mnot big enough...or not lean enough...grrrr...my issues I guess.

Searching for the right balance...

jakethesnake

I get really depressed when someone calls me skinny, partly because i bust my arse off at the gym and partly coz i dont want anyone to rub it in.

Var

I think many of us here have the same problem. I know I do!

But when you disarm them, you at once offend them by showing that you distrust them, either for cowardice or for want of loyalty, and either of these opinions breeds hatred against you.

-N. Machiavelli

Vieope

Post your diet at the "Diet forum"

FURtherness

tackle

Jake, have you read the book called "The Adonis Complex" ?

jakethesnake

no. I'll look into it. thanks - and i'll post my diet now.

Var

Did a search. Found two. Which one did u read?

The Adonis Complex: The Secret Crisis of Male Body Obsession

The Adonis Complex: How to Identify, Treat and Prevent Body Obsession in Men and Boys

But when you disarm them, you at once offend them by showing that you distrust them, either for cowardice or for want of loyalty, and either of these opinions breeds hatred against you.

-N. Machiavelli

tackle

The first one (that was their original publication). I highly recommend it. You won't feel so alone after reading about some of the really big guys who honestly feel they are weak and small. Some really good anecdotes and interviews in here.

Var

Cool. Thanks for the info

But when you disarm them, you at once offend them by showing that you distrust them, either for cowardice or for want of loyalty, and either of these opinions breeds hatred against you.

-N. Machiavelli

tackle

No problem. Definitely let me know what you think after reading it!

Vieope

FURtherness

Flex

as Freddy said, when about to fight Jason after dragging Jason into his nightmare, "Welcome to my world"

You're a funny guy, Sully, I like you. Dat's why I'm going to kill you lahst.


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tackle

Hey Vieope, what do you mean? I heard of the book from somebody and realized I could have body dysmorphia (or whatever it's called). A large reason I got into lifting was to be stronger and bigger.

Vieope

FURtherness

Flex

Bro-
in a sense, all BB's have some type of body dysmorphia. all BB's either wanna be bigger, more cut, or both......NEVER getting satisfied. A certain amount of "dysmorphia" is ok, cuz thats why we get into/continue BB in the first place. It's just when it gets to a degree of severity where you are obsessed with it, that it is unhealthy (but that goes with anything in life when you think about it.....)

Look at the BB pros. they are obviously enormous. But i'm sure they still only see their weakpoints.

That's why BB is kind of a double edged sword, cuz the gains you make to better your physique are so positive, yet we're NEVER satisfied, cuz this could be bigger or that could be more defined.

hope this helps...

You're a funny guy, Sully, I like you. Dat's why I'm going to kill you lahst.


* Got juice?*Need Motivation?*How to Train*
*Arnold vs. Ronnie vs. Haney vs. Sergio*
*YEAH BUDDY...LIGHT WEIGHT!*Ahhnold*

Var

I dont think its a gay thing, bro!

But when you disarm them, you at once offend them by showing that you distrust them, either for cowardice or for want of loyalty, and either of these opinions breeds hatred against you.

-N. Machiavelli

tackle

I think I know what you mean now. Actually, the authors concluded that sexual orientation has no correlation with dysmorphia. They conceded that more gay guys may be able to step forward and talk about their emotions than straight guys.

Flex - I totally agree with you on that. BBs should never be satisfied, and I'm not satisfied only because I know I can improve in the years to come. In fact, I'm starting to believe my friends when they say, "You're getting huge!"

greekblondechic

Fitness-directed perfectionism

jakethesnake

I dont think its a HUGE issue, because im only 16. I find that i cope with it better because there are hardly any 16/17 year olds to compare myself with, so i am not constantly looking at others and asking myself "am i bigger than him?", "is he bigger than me". I think when i get older it could become a problem.

P-funk

I always feel little, I can't stand it. I feel like I am a 16yr old kid still. then, if I diet I feel even worse!! I just feel like I am skinny fat.

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jakethesnake

are you constantly thinking about it aswell?

Fit Freak

P-Funk...I am exactly the same way.....and Jake...I think about it ALL THE TIME>..it drives me insane.

Searching for the right balance...

atherjen

well- as a female this may sound weird but sometimes I either feel too big-or too darn small. drives me nuts

" To dream anything you want to dream: That is the beauty of the human mind. To do anything you want to do: That is the strength of the human will. To trust yourself to test your limits: that is the courage to succeed."

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gr81

Well my homie Flex nailed it on the head as always, there is nothing really I can say since he took te words out of my mouth but basically, welcome to Bodybuilding bro. Think of it this way though, insecurity, although annoying and irritating to your ego, is a great trait for someone who is trying to perfect their physique. Doin't trip, turn it into something positive and use it to drive you towards your goals. Every single person who has BB in their heart feels the same way bro..

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jakethesnake

feeling big must be nice, if you want to be big that is!

gr81

since you are so concerned about it jake, heres some reading on it...

Is What You See What You’ve Got?
An Introduction to the Adonis Complex
(aka Bigorexia or Muscle Dysmorphia)
by Jack Darkes, PhD
Assistant Professor, Department of Psychology
Director of Interventions, Alcohol and Substance Use Research Institute, University of South Florida


I admit it – I am a Three Stooges fan. Maybe it is because they were on the television every day when I was growing up or maybe I am addicted to my own endogenous testosterone (see www.sophrony.com). Anyway, I watch them whenever I can and particularly enjoy it when someone finds them doing something stupid and shouts "Gentlemen, Gentlemen!" In response, the stooges generally look around quizzically for any gentlemen in the vicinity, failing to realize that the comment was addressed to them.

So, what does this have to do with muscle dysmorphia (e.g., Phillips, O’Sullivan, & Pope, 1997), bigorexia nervosa or reverse anorexia (to acknowledge its similarities and differences with anorexia nervosa: Pope, Katz, & Hudson, 1993), megorexia nervosa (Kessler, 1998), machismo nervosa (Connan, 1998), or the Adonis complex (Pope, Olivardia, & Phillips, 2000)? Simply the fact that human beings are always perceiving themselves, but their evaluations are not always reliable. For instance, has someone at work, a club, or the gym ever commented on how big, cut or both you look? Maybe someone noted in casual conversation that you were the biggest person in the room. Did you smile and sincerely mumble something like "Don’t I wish" or "It must be this light?" Maybe, if the person was not into lifting, bodybuilding, or whatever you call what you do in the gym you attributed their observation to their ignorance. However, if we accept that the average weight trainer is probably stronger and/or bigger than the average or above average non-lifter then proponents would suggest that such responses might be an early sign of the Adonis complex.

In this article, I am going to discuss the Adonis Complex or more broadly, muscle dysmorphia, covering topics ranging from the methodological issues surrounding the computation and interpretation of the Fat Free Mass Index (FFMI) to logical issues and caveats of the concept. I will briefly review the research on body image in bodybuilders including some of the ideas presented by the authors of "The Adonis Complex" and suggest underlying mechanisms of the disorder.

The Adonis Complex

Find out more information



The Fat Free Mass Index

One concept that was introduced to the general public in the Adonis Complex was the computation of the FFMI, which was the source of much angst on the Internet when the book came out. Although Pope and his colleagues had published this formula previously (e.g., Kouri, Pope, Katz, and Oliva, 1995), the book introduced the idea to the mainstream. I will not go into the details of its computation or the statistical and conceptual issues germane to the interpretation of it, deferring that discussion until later. However, several points are relevant here.

First, the FFMI could be useful as an overall measure of muscularity. The Body Mass Index (BMI; the ratio of weight to height2) is not sensitive to variations in body composition and most lifters appear obese via its computation, although it takes little time on the net to find (mis)information to the contrary (e.g., http://www.fitnesstutor.com/bmi.html). It could, therefore, be useful to have an enhanced means of accurately reporting physical status using a single number. Whereas the BMI uses total body mass, the FFMI takes only lean body mass into account (ratio of lean mass to height2), which could also be deceiving in cases where high levels of body fat existed. However, in conjunction with the BMI, the FFMI could prove useful for describing body composition. This, of course, does not address the height correction used for FFMI calculation in males.

However, Pope et al. (2000) went beyond such a descriptive function and suggested that "…if a man is fairly lean, has an FFMI greater than about 25, and claims that he has achieved this physical condition without the use of steroids, he is almost certainly lying (Pope Et al., 2000; pp. 35-36)." They reported that no "unequivocally" clean research participant had an FFMI above 26 and Kouri et al. (1995) found none over 25. However, this statement may be unwarranted given the method used to determine the cut-off. Later I will discuss the issue of "false positives" and why, based on the methods used (e.g., Kouri et al., 1995), the FFMI may not be suited for such a "lie detector" function.

So…What is It?

So, what is the Adonis complex? First, it is technically known as muscle dysmorphia and is not a formal diagnosis, but a type of body dysmorphic disorder, or a preoccupation with slight or imagined defects in appearance. In the case of muscle dysmorphia, the preoccupation focuses on muscle size. The Adonis complex, as Pope describes it (see below), apparently encompasses an even wider range of body image concerns, specifically in men. Ultimately, the Adonis complex is a popularized idea, a name given to a syndrome (co-occurring group) of behaviors. The name probably derives from the fact that, when selling a book or an idea, non-technical terms work best. This approach to naming, of course, does not invalidate the idea, but the book would likely have received less attention if it were entitled "Muscle Dysmorphia and Beyond: Body Dysmorphia in Male Bodybuilders." Additionally, psychiatry often turns to Greek mythology for names and metaphorical frameworks with which to express theory. No one can currently be diagnosed with the Adonis complex, although that might change when the next version of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM: the compendium of formal psychiatric diagnoses) of the American Psychiatric Association is published. Certainly muscle dysmorphia will likely be prominently featured. But what does this syndrome look like?

A quote from Pope during an ABC News chat should be illuminating – "Let me define the Adonis Complex in more detail. It refers to all types of body image preoccupations in boys and men. Some boys and men worry that they aren’t muscular enough; others worry that they aren’t lean enough and still others worry that they have some unattractive feature, such as hair, facial features, etc. All of these worries represent different forms of the Adonis Complex" (http://204.202.137.117/onair/DailyNe...ope991115.html). So, if you are male and worry that you are too small, too fat, or unattractive, in almost any way, then you might have the Adonis complex.

Unfortunately, this quote provides little illumination and the ambiguity of the answer further clouds the issue. The wider the range of symptoms one tries to fit into a category, the less meaningful and useful the category becomes for defining behavior and this seems a problem for both the book and the disorder. On the other hand, the application of broader criteria increases the number of people who might fit the category, which is useful when selling an idea. Consistent with the above quote, the Adonis complex, although often considered synonymous with muscle dysmorphia, is actually a sub-category of that syndrome - the complex exclusively addresses male appearance preoccupations, while muscle dysmorphia has also been noted in female bodybuilders (Gruber & Pope, 2000). Female bodybuilders also show similar behavioral characteristics (e.g., nutritional patterns) as their male counterparts (Anderson, Bartlett, Morgan, & Brownell, 1995; Anderson, Brownell, Morgan, & Bartlett, 1998).

What Might it Look Like?

Have you ever refused to go out to dinner or attend a social function because the food would not fit with your current diet? Did you ever refuse, even on hot days, to walk around in a tank top or wear a swimsuit at the beach for fear that others would find you too small or too fat? Do you continuously and obsessively look at yourself in mirrors, checking out your reflection in shop or car windows you pass by? Do you become frustrated, depressed, or angry (not just irritable) if you are forced to miss a scheduled workout? Would you sooner give up your girlfriend or wife than your regular training? Would you give up a high-paying job to spend your days at the gym even if it meant a significant loss of income? Males with muscle dysmorphia may show obsessive working out and dieting, withdrawal from social contact, loss of friends