Brutus_G

Just wanted to hear your ideas and views on DOMS. Does it cause muscle growth, are they linked in some way? Maybe you think it means nothing please just be honest and back up what you say with some evidence(doesn't need to be scientific just give an explanation why.).

"My main objective is to be professional but to kill him." "I want to rip out his heart and feed it to him [Lennox Lewis]. I want to kill people."- Mike Tyson

largepkg

NO, NO, NO, NO!


Oh yeah did I say, NO?!

Brutus_G

Really you don't? I believe it is very strongly linked to muscle hypertrophy. One real life example is my arms are a bitch to get sore and my legs and lower back always get sore. Guess which body part is lagging and which parts are packing. I give my workouts my all so it's not like i go easy on the arms. Why don't you think it equals growth?

"My main objective is to be professional but to kill him." "I want to rip out his heart and feed it to him [Lennox Lewis]. I want to kill people."- Mike Tyson

largepkg

I very rarely ever feel sore and I'm growing quite a bit.

Nick+

Doms means large wobbly tits.

KONAN

Delayed On Muscle Soreness.......DOMS. It is the soreness that you feel after a successfull workout. Basically as you train a specific body part you are tearing little fibres in the muscle itself. This therefore repairs itself when you rest it and supply it with protein. During the repairing process the fibres may actually multiply thus creating a bigger muscle. This process is known as DOMS....thats why i know ive trained hard when i get this soreness...Im actually addicted to this feeling and get really suicidal if i dont get it!!!!!!!

NOTHING VENTURED...NOTHING GAINED!!

TJ Cline

Wrong




Treating and Preventing DOMS
Johndavid Maes, and Len Kravitz, Ph.D.

Articles Reviewed:
Connolly, D.A.J., S.P Sayers, and M.P. McHugh. Treatment and prevention of delayed onset muscle soreness. J. Strength Cond. Res. 17(1):197-298. 2003.

Szymanski, D.J. Recommendations for the avoidance of delayed-onset muscle soreness. J. Strength Cond. Res. 23(4): 7-13. 2001.

INTRODUCTION
Delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) is a phenomenon that has long been associated with increased physical exertion. DOMS is typically experienced by all individuals regardless of fitness level, and is a normal physiological response to increased exertion, and the introduction of unfamiliar physical activities. Due to the sensation of pain and discomfort, which can impair physical training and performance, prevention and treatment of DOMS is of great concern to coaches, trainers, and therapists. In a recent review, Szymanski (2001) provides an extensive evaluation of the mechanisms and treatments for DOMS. Although science has not established a sound and consistent treatment for DOMS, previous interventions include pharmaceuticals, pre-exercise warm-up, stretching, massage, and nutritional supplements, just to name a few. The pain and discomfort associated with DOMS typically peaks 24-48 hours after an exercise bout, and resolves within 96 hours. Generally, an increased perception of soreness occurs with greater intensity and a higher degree of unfamiliar activities. Other factors, which play a role in DOMS, are muscle stiffness, contraction velocity, fatigue, and angle of contraction. In order to minimize symptoms and optimize productivity in a physical training program it is vital to understand the proposed mechanisms of injury, which occur in DOMS. In another recent review, Connolly, Sayers, and McHugh (2003) present an explanation for the mechanisms of injury, as well as various modalities for prevention and treatment of DOMS. The purpose of this article is to provide a review of the mechanisms of injury associated with DOMS as well as an evaluation of the recommendations of various proposed treatments.

MECHANISMS of INJURY
For many years the phenomenon of DOMS has been attributed to the buildup of lactate in the muscles after an intense workout. However, this assumption has been shown to be unrelated to DOMS. The perceptions of pain and soreness that result from intense eccentric exercise are not related to lactate buildup at all. Szymanski’s review (2001) notes that blood and muscle lactate levels do rise considerably during intense eccentric and concentric exercise, however values for blood and muscle lactate return to normal within 30-60 minutes post exercise. Szymanski also notes that concentric exercise produces two-thirds more lactate than does eccentric exercise. If DOMS was brought on by the accumulation of lactate in the muscles, there would me more of an incidence of DOMS after concentric exercise than that of eccentric exercise. Furthermore, blood lactate levels drop to normal values within 60 minutes of an intense exercise bout. The symptoms of DOMS peak within 24-48 hours after an intense eccentric exercise bout when blood lactate levels have been at normal levels for a considerable amount of time.

DOMS is often precipitated predominantly by eccentric exercise, such as downhill running, plyometrics, and resistance training. In their review, Connolly et al. (2003) explain that the injury itself is a result of eccentric exercise, causing damage to the muscle cell membrane, which sets off an inflammatory response. This inflammatory response leads to the formation of metabolic waste products, which act as a chemical stimulus to the nerve endings that directly cause a sensation of pain. These metabolic waste products also increase vascular permeability and attract neutrophils (a type of white blood cell) to the site of injury. Once at the site of injury, neutrophils generate free radicals (molecules with unshared electrons), which can further damage the cell membrane. Swelling is also a common occurrence at the site of membrane injury, and can lead to additional sensations of pain. Connolly et al. also note the importance of differentiating DOMS from other injuries such as muscle strains. This difference is important to appreciate because when muscle strain is sustained from vigorous exercise, particularly eccentric exercise, it can severely worsen the injury. In contrast, in a muscle that is experiencing DOMS, continued eccentric exercise is still possible without further muscle damage. When dealing with DOMS it is important to differentiate it from muscle strains, recognizing that continued exercise is still possible with DOMS, but not with muscle strain.

Symptoms Associated With DOMS
Both Connolly et al.(2003) and Szymanski (2001) agree that typical symptoms often associated with DOMS include strength loss, pain, muscle tenderness, stiffness, and swelling. Loss of strength usually peaks within the first 48 hours of an exercise bout, with full recovery taking up to 5 days. Pain and tenderness peak within 1-3 days after exercise and typically subside within 7 days. Stiffness and swelling can peak 3-4 days after exercise and will usually resolve within 10 days. It is important to note that these symptoms are not dependant on one another and do not always present at the same time.

Proposed Interventions
Although there has been a considerable amount of research on the treatment of DOMS, to date no one treatment has proved dominant in consistently preventing or treating DOMS. Among popular interventions are pharmacological treatments using non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs), therapeutic treatments utilizing physical modalities such as stretching and warm-up, and interventions using nutritional supplements. The following is a discussion and evaluation of these proposed mechanisms of treatment and the prevention of DOMS.

Benefits of NSAIDs
Nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) such as aspirin, ibuprofen, and flurbiprofen have long been considered as a treatment for alleviating the symptoms of DOMS. Theoretically, NSAIDs have a strong case for helping to combat the inflammation and swelling which occurs with exercise induced muscle damage. Despite this strong theoretical backing, research done on the effectiveness of NSAIDs has provided mixed and conflicting results. Due to inconsistencies among studies between type, dose, and timing of various NSAIDs, as well as associated negative side effects such as gastrointestinal distress, and hypertensive effects, NSAIDs do not appear to be an optimal choice for treatment of DOMS.

Benefits of Nutritional Supplementation
Nutritional supplements have also emerged as a potential treatment for DOMS. Anti-oxidant’s, such as vitamins C and E, are known to reduce the proliferation of free radicals, which are thought to be generated during the inflammatory response potentially causing more damage to an affected muscle. Connolly et al. report that the effectiveness of anti-oxidant therapy has been shown to be inconsistent among several studies examining it’s potential for treatment. Other nutritional supplements which have been investigated for treatment of DOMS include coenzyme–Q and L-carnitine, however neither supplement has been shown to effectively treat DOMS, and may even worsen symptoms.

Benefits of Warm-up
Unlike the use of NSAIDs and nutritional supplements, pre-exercise warm-up has been shown to be effective in reducing symptoms of DOMS. In his review, Szymanski (2001) notes that traditional warm-up before exercise has been suggested as a means of preparing the body for exercise, improving athletic performance, and reducing DOMS and associated muscle damage. Using a warm up to increase muscle temperature is thought to improve muscle function by leading to greater muscle elasticity, an increased resistance of muscle tissue to tearing, more relaxed muscles, an increased extensibility of connective tissues within muscle, and decreased muscle viscosity. This in turn allows for more efficient muscle contractions, which deliver increased speed and force. Szymanski also reports that several studies provide evidence of concentric warm-up before eccentric exercise, thus preparing the body for the stress caused by overloading the muscles with eccentric activity.

Szymanski (2001) adds that pre-exercise warm-up can be placed into two categories, general and specific. General warm-up is aimed at increasing core body temperature by performing movements that require the use of large muscle groups, such as calisthenics and running. Specific warm-up, mimicking the movement patterns of the actual exercises, is aimed at increasing the local muscle temperature in the muscles, which will be used in the specific sport or physical activity. Due to the benefits of warm-up it is advisable to precede an intense exercise bout with an adequate general and specific warm-up. Warm-up duration can vary greatly, depending of the intensity of physical activity, environmental conditions, and fitness level of clients (less fit people may need a longer warm-up).

Repeated-Bout Effect
In addition to warming up, Szymanski (2003) introduces the repeated-bout effect as a meaningful means of reducing DOMS. The repeated bout effect is a progressive adaptation to eccentric exercise. It has been reported that repeated bouts of lower intensity eccentric exercise performed 1-6 weeks before the initial higher intensity eccentric bouts have been shown to consistently reduce DOMS and exercise induced muscle damage. Thus, a gradual introduction of eccentric exercise, over a period of weeks, is encouraged. Szymanski states that the repeated bout effect is proposed to allow for a faster recovery of strength and range of motion in effected muscles, providing for increased resistance to damage after the first bout. It is also thought that muscle and connective tissue gradually adapt to increasing intensities of eccentric exercise, minimizing incidence and severity of DOMS.

Conclusion
With a better understanding of the causes of DOMS, the health and fitness professional is better equipped to help clients avoid it’s complications. It is hoped that the information in this article will add to the ‘tool box’ of knowledge from which personal trainers can draw from in an effort to optimize the health and fitness results obtained by their clients.



http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article%20folder/domos.html

Brutus_G

But when we all first started the doms was the worst and the muscle growth was always the best. I think DOMS can be prevented slightly by warmups but you still get it after a new and intense workout. While it may be helped by stretching and is an inflamitory response by the body and leaves waste it is a response by the body to unfamiliar stimulus so also is muscle growth. as always i enjoy a good debat keep the stuff coming guys. Sorry for my bad spelling lol

"My main objective is to be professional but to kill him." "I want to rip out his heart and feed it to him [Lennox Lewis]. I want to kill people."- Mike Tyson

largepkg

There is no debate! DOMS does NOT equal muscle growth, PERIOD!

DUROAMORIRE

my Website http://healthfitness.forumfree.net/

min0 lee

DOMS makes my muscle grow with every post he makes.

TearAndRepair

I have to get my posts up to 3 to insert a url...

TearAndRepair

Post 2

TearAndRepair

Drumroll Please.......

TearAndRepair

I am currently getting my masters in Exercise Science and hopefully getting my doctorate to become a credible exercise physiologist. I am currently doing scientific research on DOMS and I have learned many things along the way. I ran across this forum in my search for more information and realized that I needed to pass along some of the things I have learned in my studies...

To the person who said that DOMS "multiplies" muscle fibers and the person who stated "WRONG": Recent research in cats has shown that indeed, muscle fibers can split (hyperplasia). (I googled this to illustrate an article, and what do ya know, my book that i payed $125 for is online free of charge)

Physiology of sport and exercise - Google Book Search

Just copy and paste that gibberish, it is located on page 208... In order to know if humans undergo fiber hyperplasia, an autopsy must be performed, so you can see how this can't be studied efficiently. But, nonetheless studies have been performed on accidental death cases and research indicates that there is a 10% increase in left leg muscle fibers in the case of a right hand dominant individual. (Evidence is limited due to the circumstances of the procedures) So, all of this information leads me to the fact that it is possible for fiber hyperplasia (splitting) to occur.

So, the main question, Does DOMS promote muscle growth... If the above did not persuade you, I still am not out of ammunition. What exactly is delayed onset muscle soreness? The average joe would tell you, "it is when I work out really intense and I am sore for a couple of days." Science and physiology will say, "When a person undergoes repeated eccentric contractions and a high level of intensity, the actin and myosin heads are torn, resulting in pain." What did all that fancy wording just mean? Well, when you are pushing to get your last rep and you can not do anymore, your muscles are completely exhausted. Your muscles have just been torn at the microscopic level. So, your body has a couple of reactions to this. First, it must begin to repair the tissue that is torn. (this is why you ingest carbs and amino acids after your workouts) Carbs are essential in repairing torn tissue, not just protein. Another reaction your body has is pain/swelling. Obviously when you tear something it is going to cause pain, but also, when myofibrils undergo hypertrophy, they press against nerves causing pain sensation. This also explains stiffness. When your cells are pressing against a nerve, they are blocking information being sent from the axon terminal to the motor end plate. The last reaction your body has is an adaptation to the trauma that was placed on your muscle. This adaptation causes an enlargement of the muscle fiber and an increase in nerve intervention, thus creating more power/strength...

There are so many more things that I could go into detail about, but I am tired of typing and you are tired of reading. But to answer the question, yes, DOMS does equate to muscle growth. Did I back up my answer? haha

vader

I say no it does not equal muscle growth. I hardly ver get sore but over the last year i have made more gans than any other time since I have been training.
If I am not mistaken DOMS is somehow linked to your diet and tha amount of carbs you take in? Someone tell if I am on the right track or not with that statement, Built I think I got that from one of your post. Correct me if I am wrong please.

danzik17

Did you seriously just make spam posts to get up to 5 posts so you could answer a 2 year old question?

DOMS is not required for growth, period.

Ron Paul 2012

Journal: danzik17's Log - 4-6 Week Strength/Bulk
Journal: Sub 10% by April <old>

vader

is this thread two years old seriously?
Damn, I need to spend more time here. Duh, I could hve just looked at the thread title to tell

TearAndRepair

Yes I did, I am trying to make light of the fact that many people are misinformed on what DOMS is. The fact that it is a 2 yr old question on this forum is irrelavent, due to scientific studies to further understand DOMS and its physiological effects. Many people are asking the question "Am I gaining muscle size because I am sore?" The question is not if DOMS increases muscle size, rather what are the effects of DOMS... If I understand you correctly, you are saying that tearing down, rebuilding, and adapting does not equate to muscle development. Correct?

TearAndRepair

One of the prevention methods of DOMS is to become accustomed with the workload one is trying to preform, so if you have been lifting for a period of time, you will not get sore. This is because you know what your max is on particular weights, and every week/month you progressively create a higher intensity by adding weight to your workout (overload principle). So, in other words, your body has adapted to the stress you are placing on it... For instance, to increase numbers on your bench press, you could do negatives. Say you max bench at 350, and you want to get it up a bit. Load up 425-475 and do eccentric contractions (negatives) with a slow and controlled motion. Have the spotter assist you in lifting the weight up and repeat. This will create DOMS and in return, you will gain strength. Plyometrics is also a great tool.

Diet: Yes, you are definately on the right track. Carb intake is essential in repairing muscle tissue. Studies have also been done that caffine reduces DOMS. There are many studies being conducted to further understand DOMS and the effects it has on muscles, so I can not give you the perfect answer.

*I am not trying to stir up a debate. I am a health enthusiast, not a body builder. I have my major in Exercise Science, working on my masters in Exercise Physiology. I just ran across this forum while researching. I just wanted to share my knowledge of the science behind it all.

T_man

I think DOMS equates to muscle growth but it's not the only instance in which Muscle growth occurs.

The worst DOMS' I ever had lasted 8 days, and all I did was 3 sets of squats, 3 sets of deads and calf raises. I could not walk for 8 days, with intense pain the first 2 days, but in 2 weeks I could see my quad muscles split for the first time in my life. My calves also stuck out, I could see.

I think when you have DOMS you have growth as DOMS is one of the symptoms of repair, and therefore growth. You don't have to have DOMS to grow muscles but I like to shoot for DOMS because I know I have done an effective workout that my body is not used to yet.

Gazhole

The real question is whether DOMS is necessary for muscle growth. The answer to which is obviously no since growth is definitely possible without being sore.

With that in mind, in terms of a means to an end, whether or not DOMS causes muscle growth is pretty irrelevant since being sore isn't essential for growth, and actually hinders training for a few days after a DOMS-causing workout.

Besides that, DOMS is a completely in-efficient way of measuring progress. Judging improvement by appearance, measurements, or increased weight on the bar is always going to be more effective than "i'm sore thismorning!!!!".

People who continually push themselves in a quest for muscle soreness often overtrain because their bodies adapt and don't get sore anymore, leading them to believe they aren't doing enough in the gym, and so add more volume or increase training frequency when they don't need to.

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T_man

I never add volume or frequency, just the weight

And I placed my words in a muddled fashion. What I meant to say DOMS is one of the many signs of Muscle Growth apart from the obvious, growth.

nkira

It just doesn't work that way.

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Quote:

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